Excercise Induces Collapse

[frufru]

In this heat I only do ball throwing after 4.30pm and in the shade and we stop after 10 mins and my 2 year old mini poo and 9 month old standard are panting like nobodies business. I would be checking heart pretty thoroughly.

[Jed]

Please speak to the breeder, he may have some advice.

I would see a specialist vet. I don't think you will get to the bottom of this with blood test . He probably needs a stress test, or holter monitoring.

Meanwhile back off on the exercise.

Good luck, please let us know what the diagnosis is.

[sas]

I know this would probably be better posted in the poodle thread but I am a bit forum challenged and could not see how to do it (it said I did not have permission to post a new topic ).

We have a 2½ year old miniature poodle, from a registered breeder, US imported mother, UK imported father, so he should not be inbred.

He adores his ball and loves to chase it. He's ball obsessed.

Over the last 6 weeks, often, after about 10 minutes of running and chasing, he appears drunk and uncoordinated, his back legs wobble and fail, then his front legs fail and he collapses. He recovers very quickly (a couple of minutes). In all other respects he appears a very active, healthy, energetic dog.

We have seen a vet who did a blood test but was at a loss to explain the problem. She consulted other vets but no one had heard of this happening.

I googled 'collapse in dogs' and found a syndrome called Exercise Induced Collapse (EIC) - references are to the USA and it is being studied there, but the condition seems to be found only in labradors and collies. There is a video of a border collie collapsing after exercise and it mimics exactly what happens with our poodle.

Does anyone know firsthand of this problem, especially in poodles? I can't believe our dog is unique and I suppose I want to know, really, what the long term prognosis is.

I am going to print out the references and take them to our vet when she returns from holidays.

Thanks!

My sisters Staffy does this and her Vets didn't have a clue what it is or what to do about it.

[Tim'sMum]

One of the GSP's, owned by another dog walker that we met often, used to do the same. These dogs were exercised often and were both very lean....but the breed is a lean and athletic breed. The vet could not work it out...except suspecting over-heating and dehydration when over-exercised. I and another dog walker suggested the dogs may be just a little too lean but the owner was adamant that she fed them correctly...only a top quality dry food recommended by the breeder and nothing else. We both suggested trying a different diet to see if it helped.. a BARF diet. She eventually did try it and the fainting/collapsing spells stopped. It seemed that their calorie intake with an entirely dry food diet was not enough to support their energy output.

Your dog's diet might be worth looking at?

[Gretel]

Running with a ball he won't be panting so that may contribute to over heating too. And with a run of hot days it knocks people about and I've noticed it's even slowed down one of my dogs quite a bit. Even when it's cooled down a bit.

[Mystiqview]

I used to have a BC with EIC. At the time, it was pretty much unheard of here in Australia (About 7 years ago). The only real research and "labelling" came from the Canada and the United States.

I knew what it was at the time as a good friend of mine had a working BC with the Uni here called as Lactic Acid build up. Their description of the condition (now known as EIC) is it is akin to distance swimmers who take less oxygen into their system, causing the lactic acid to build up in the muscles, causing the collapse.

His dog (and mine) were subjected to temperatures before physical activity, during and after. When he was working his sheep, he would keep a 20L bucket by the gate incase his dog started to suffer the wobbly back end and "over heat".

My girl, could get it from concentrating too hard. If I was say in the loungeroom at night trying to get her do to tricks and she was concentrating very hard, she would for a better description "forget to breathe". One first sign would be her tongue would go from a nice healthy paler pink to a very dark blood red/purple colour. She would start to lose co-ordination in her rear if you continued then finally collapse.

She could also collapse from a walk in the evenings (I walked her once to help find a friend's dog who escaped about 730-8pm one evening. It was warm, but not excessive despite being summer. I can agree with Vicky's comment, it does not have to be HOT to induce collapse.

Things I noticed to help prevent attacks:

Keep any excess weight off the dog

If you exercise, anything that involves water - swimming, beach/dam.

Keep exercise short and not during the heat of the day or when its hot.

If you start to notice the tongue going dark - STOP! and cool the stomach/underside of the dog as quickly as you can

The working BC had a smooth coat, Jemma a long coat. Coat length in the two dogs did not seem to make a difference. (To me)

I also noticed, that if she had one attack say today.. if I did not stop her, another attack could come on quite quickly.

IMO: I think EIC is currently found in at least two breeds. So could it be in more breeds?

[JackieW]

The only symptom I noticed of my dog's insulinoma was that he went "wobbly" a couple of times after exercise. My vet mentioned a hunting dog collapse syndrome (can't remember the name now) but after it happened a second time we did blood tests. I think the original poster said the dog had had a blood test but it might be worth doing again after a fast. They'd be looking for low blood glucose or the glucose/insulin ratio.

[persephone]

A friend's Koolie used to get the wobbles and collapse - he wasn't diabetic.. but did have a problem where he would have 'hypos' . They were able to manage it ok

[Andisa]

It may be a heart issue? When he exercises the heart can't keep up the blood pressure. A blood test won't show this but a stress test would (if they do the for doggies). If your vet hasn't done any heart tests then another vet might be an option.

This was my first thought too.

[Lablover]

I used to have a BC with EIC.

The EIC test for BC has not been developed yet? How do you know your dog is affected?

[kelpiekaye]

My first Kelpie did the same thing a few times when I was throwing a ball. I took her to the vet, he sent to the park to throw a ball and then listened to her heart. He couldnt find anything wrong. I just stopped doing what caused it and she was fine. Maybe she just didnt breath properly with a ball in her mouth.

[dancinbcs]

I used to have a BC with EIC.

The EIC test for BC has not been developed yet? How do you know your dog is affected?

There is no genetic test yet but research is being carried out on BCC and the dogs currently affected all show the exact same symptoms. This is a fairly recent discovery in Borders but as more people talk about it there seem to be more possible cases turning up. It may or may not be inherited in the same manner as EIC in Labs, only time will tell.

This link has videos of Borders with BCC. I have never seen a case before but have had it described to me by several people who have owned dogs that do this. I found it interesting to actually see what they were talking about. If it is the same as EIC in Labs, then it is highly likely that similar conditions also occur in some other breeds.

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vbs/faculty/Mickels...ieEIC/home.html

Edited February 19, 2011 by dancinbcs

[jasperd]

Thank you all for so many comments and opinions.

Interesting to see that others have experienced the same problem when the vets had no knowledge.

I tend to think that in my dog it is a metabolic problem or similar, rather than that I have just allowed him too much exercise.

Have taken on board the comments about leanness (he eats a lot but is lean) and food (he eats mainly dried food).

Will speak to the breeder this week and ask if anyone else has reported a similar problem.

If it is EIC in a poodle then obviously it is more widespread than thought.

[Greytmate]

I used to have a BC with EIC. At the time, it was pretty much unheard of here in Australia (About 7 years ago). The only real research and "labelling" came from the Canada and the United States.

I knew what it was at the time as a good friend of mine had a working BC with the Uni here called as Lactic Acid build up. Their description of the condition (now known as EIC) is it is akin to distance swimmers who take less oxygen into their system, causing the lactic acid to build up in the muscles, causing the collapse.

His dog (and mine) were subjected to temperatures before physical activity, during and after. When he was working his sheep, he would keep a 20L bucket by the gate incase his dog started to suffer the wobbly back end and "over heat".

My girl, could get it from concentrating too hard. If I was say in the loungeroom at night trying to get her do to tricks and she was concentrating very hard, she would for a better description "forget to breathe". One first sign would be her tongue would go from a nice healthy paler pink to a very dark blood red/purple colour. She would start to lose co-ordination in her rear if you continued then finally collapse.

She could also collapse from a walk in the evenings (I walked her once to help find a friend's dog who escaped about 730-8pm one evening. It was warm, but not excessive despite being summer. I can agree with Vicky's comment, it does not have to be HOT to induce collapse.

Things I noticed to help prevent attacks:

Keep any excess weight off the dog

If you exercise, anything that involves water - swimming, beach/dam.

Keep exercise short and not during the heat of the day or when its hot.

If you start to notice the tongue going dark - STOP! and cool the stomach/underside of the dog as quickly as you can

The working BC had a smooth coat, Jemma a long coat. Coat length in the two dogs did not seem to make a difference. (To me)

I also noticed, that if she had one attack say today.. if I did not stop her, another attack could come on quite quickly.

IMO: I think EIC is currently found in at least two breeds. So could it be in more breeds?

This sounds like acidosis, very common if you over-exercise a greyhound. I knew a lady who's greyhound was ball-obsessed. Ten minutes of hard chasing at the park after a tennis ball killed her dog.

Obviously poodles and other breeds should be able to handle a lot more exercise than a greyhound can. But any activities that involve hard chasing (like racing or obsessive ball retrieving) can be dangerous, because the dog's instincts override the brain signals telling the dog it has done too much. The owner has to take control and know when to stop with dogs like these.

[dancinbcs]

I used to have a BC with EIC. At the time, it was pretty much unheard of here in Australia (About 7 years ago). The only real research and "labelling" came from the Canada and the United States.

I knew what it was at the time as a good friend of mine had a working BC with the Uni here called as Lactic Acid build up. Their description of the condition (now known as EIC) is it is akin to distance swimmers who take less oxygen into their system, causing the lactic acid to build up in the muscles, causing the collapse.

His dog (and mine) were subjected to temperatures before physical activity, during and after. When he was working his sheep, he would keep a 20L bucket by the gate incase his dog started to suffer the wobbly back end and "over heat".

My girl, could get it from concentrating too hard. If I was say in the loungeroom at night trying to get her do to tricks and she was concentrating very hard, she would for a better description "forget to breathe". One first sign would be her tongue would go from a nice healthy paler pink to a very dark blood red/purple colour. She would start to lose co-ordination in her rear if you continued then finally collapse.

She could also collapse from a walk in the evenings (I walked her once to help find a friend's dog who escaped about 730-8pm one evening. It was warm, but not excessive despite being summer. I can agree with Vicky's comment, it does not have to be HOT to induce collapse.

Things I noticed to help prevent attacks:

Keep any excess weight off the dog

If you exercise, anything that involves water - swimming, beach/dam.

Keep exercise short and not during the heat of the day or when its hot.

If you start to notice the tongue going dark - STOP! and cool the stomach/underside of the dog as quickly as you can

The working BC had a smooth coat, Jemma a long coat. Coat length in the two dogs did not seem to make a difference. (To me)

I also noticed, that if she had one attack say today.. if I did not stop her, another attack could come on quite quickly.

IMO: I think EIC is currently found in at least two breeds. So could it be in more breeds?

This sounds like acidosis, very common if you over-exercise a greyhound. I knew a lady who's greyhound was ball-obsessed. Ten minutes of hard chasing at the park after a tennis ball killed her dog.

Obviously poodles and other breeds should be able to handle a lot more exercise than a greyhound can. But any activities that involve hard chasing (like racing or obsessive ball retrieving) can be dangerous, because the dog's instincts override the brain signals telling the dog it has done too much. The owner has to take control and know when to stop with dogs like these.

Acidosis can occur in Border Collies because I know of one dog that died from it many years ago. I have never heard of it though in a Border that bounced back to normal within 10-20 minutes of an attack. The fast and total recovery seems to be what sets BCC apart from heat exhaustion of acidosis.

[stormie]

I would have this worked up - could very easily be a heart problem that so far is only causing problems when it has to work harder.

I would think most regular vets can do an ECG as a start and then look at a referral to a Specialist.

[kyliegirl]

it could also be narcolepsy? narcolepsy can also cause a similar effect.

here is a good video example of it

There is also a poodle video on youtube who also suffers from narcolepsy so it could very well be possible?

Edited February 20, 2011 by kyliegirl

[Lablover]

I used to have a BC with EIC.

The EIC test for BC has not been developed yet? How do you know your dog is affected?

There is no genetic test yet but research is being carried out on BCC and the dogs currently affected all show the exact same symptoms.

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vbs/faculty/Mickels...ieEIC/home.html

So I heard, may the test be available shortly for BC.

I had long awaited the DNA test for labrador retrievers- EIC -at least 10 years. I originally thought the condition primarily found in working line labradors and more commonly found in the US. During my continued communications it was also strongly suggested in UK bench lines. This information certainly indicated, a long standing health issue as both in the UK and US working and bench lines "split" decades ago.

This syndrome of Labrador Retriever Exercise-Induced Collapse is distinct from other hereditary muscle disorders which have been identified in Labrador Retrievers including:

(1) Hereditary Labrador Retriever Myopathy (also called type II fiber deficiency or muscular dystrophy) - This is a condition where puppies (6 weeks to 6 months of age) appear stunted and develop progressive muscle weakness, exercise intolerance, an abnormal gait and muscle atrophy. Signs stabilize in most dogs by 12 to 18 months of age. While the precise underlying defect(s) is still not known, this condition is easily diagnosed with evaluation of muscle biopsy specimens. An autosomal recessive mode of inheritance has been documented in dogs with the type II fiber deficiency.

(2) Dystrophin Deficient Muscular Dystrophy - This is a rare condition affecting very young male dogs resulting in severe weakness, progressive muscle atrophy, and markedly elevated serum creatine kinase (CK) concentrations. Diagnosis is made by detection of markedly elevated serum CK in a young puppy, pathological changes within a muscle biopsy specimen consistent with dystrophy, and demonstration of absence of muscle membrane dystrophin within a muscle biopsy specimen.

(3) Familial Reflex Myoclonus - This is a rare condition where very young puppies (3 to 6 weeks of age) develop intermittent muscle spasms and then progressive muscle stiffness. Littermates are often affected.

(4) Malignant hyperthermia - This is a rare, hereditary, life-threatening condition where excessive muscle contraction and increased body temperature can be triggered by general anesthesia with certain drugs or by stress and exercise (also called canine stress syndrome). Diagnosis is by rigorous laboratory testing of muscle specimens or (more recently) through genetic testing.

Any dog with exercise intolerance should always have a complete veterinary evaluation to rule-out joint diseases, heart failure, anemia, heart rhythm disturbances, respiratory problems, low blood sugar , myasthenia gravis, myopathies and other systemic disorders.

Good luck all!!!!

[Lablover]

PS. So sorry, forgot to add, I happened to mention to a US friend today, all the latest health tests and conditions. I added why I bought up the subject...she owns poodles. Small world.

Anyway, not sure if this will help at all: Look at atrial septal defects for the original poster.

Again, good luck. May your dog have a full recovery.

[Julie R]

PS. So sorry, forgot to add, I happened to mention to a US friend today, all the latest health tests and conditions. I added why I bought up the subject...she owns poodles. Small world.

Anyway, not sure if this will help at all: Look at atrial septal defects for the original poster.

Again, good luck. May your dog have a full recovery.

Hi

I was wondering if anyone has bothered to do a bit of a survey as to what the dogs are being fed that are displaying this problems i.e. are they mainly on dry food or are they on a diet that carnivores animals require. If only mainly on dry food I can see why their metabolism could be upset when they exercise because dry food requires far more body fluid when being absorbed than “natural” food which would and does contain “natural” fluids.