jasperd Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know this would probably be better posted in the poodle thread but I am a bit forum challenged and could not see how to do it (it said I did not have permission to post a new topic ). We have a 2½ year old miniature poodle, from a registered breeder, US imported mother, UK imported father, so he should not be inbred. He adores his ball and loves to chase it. He's ball obsessed. Over the last 6 weeks, often, after about 10 minutes of running and chasing, he appears drunk and uncoordinated, his back legs wobble and fail, then his front legs fail and he collapses. He recovers very quickly (a couple of minutes). In all other respects he appears a very active, healthy, energetic dog. We have seen a vet who did a blood test but was at a loss to explain the problem. She consulted other vets but no one had heard of this happening. I googled 'collapse in dogs' and found a syndrome called Exercise Induced Collapse (EIC) - references are to the USA and it is being studied there, but the condition seems to be found only in labradors and collies. There is a video of a border collie collapsing after exercise and it mimics exactly what happens with our poodle. Does anyone know firsthand of this problem, especially in poodles? I can't believe our dog is unique and I suppose I want to know, really, what the long term prognosis is. I am going to print out the references and take them to our vet when she returns from holidays. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 It may be a heart issue? When he exercises the heart can't keep up the blood pressure. A blood test won't show this but a stress test would (if they do the for doggies). If your vet hasn't done any heart tests then another vet might be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Maybe you're just running him to the point of exhaustion? Does he pant etc before this happens? Some dogs won't stop so we have to stop for them. The exercise induced collapse stuff I've seen doesn't involve explosive exercise.. just steady stuff. I've never heard of it in poodles. What other exercise does he get? Edited February 18, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm not sure where you are but it's been really hot here the last 6 weeks - is he having enough water while exercising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasperd Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 Maybe you're just running him to the point of exhaustion? Does he pant etc before this happens? Some dogs won't stop so we have to stop for them. The exercise induced collapse stuff I've seen doesn't involve explosive exercise.. just steady stuff. I've never heard of it in poodles. What other exercise does he get? He is walked every day, we take him most places we go, and when we don't throw a ball for him at home he is usually chasing around with it himself. I really didn't think that throwing a ball for 8 - 10 minutes was excessive. We've been doing it for the last 2 years and he's had no problem. However, perhaps it is and we've cut back now. I hope that's all it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasperd Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm not sure where you are but it's been really hot here the last 6 weeks - is he having enough water while exercising? Yes, he has access to water all the time. It has been hot here too, but this has happened on coller days as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasperd Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 It may be a heart issue? When he exercises the heart can't keep up the blood pressure. A blood test won't show this but a stress test would (if they do the for doggies). If your vet hasn't done any heart tests then another vet might be an option. The vet did suggest this. She said that he would have to wear a monitor for 24 hours or so like people do and she'd have to find someone who could organise this sort of test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I would contact those doing the study here and in the US. They maybe able to offer some opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) We've had a case similar to this in the last month at my vet school, the diagnostic plan was to deliberately cause the collapse by exercising the dog, and then run in & take physical parameters, blood for tests, while the dog was collapsed. That is the type of thing you'd want to do at a referral centre, I think, so perhaps your vet can refer to a specialist in small animal medicine. Edited February 18, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 We've had a case similar to this in the last month at my vet school, the diagnostic plan was to deliberately cause the collapse by exercising the dog, and then run in & take physical parameters, blood for tests, while the dog was collapsed. Was a diagnosis and prognosis given? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) If you've cut back on the ball throwing and he's no longer collapsing then that tends to suggest that you were over doing it for this particular point in time regardless of him being able to handle it for the past 2 years. Edited February 18, 2011 by Aziah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) I know of the condition Exercise Induced Collapse but any animal can suffer from heat exhaustion/stroke, right? And from personal experience I know that it doesn't have to be a hot day for it to happen. Edited February 18, 2011 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know of the condition Exercise Induced Collapse but any animal can suffer from heat exhaustion/stroke, right? Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 We've had a case similar to this in the last month at my vet school, the diagnostic plan was to deliberately cause the collapse by exercising the dog, and then run in & take physical parameters, blood for tests, while the dog was collapsed. Was a diagnosis and prognosis given? Not yet so far as I know, we tried a few weeks back but weren't able to run the dog hard enough to get the collapse. It's a very fit working sheepdog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Not yet so far as I know, we tried a few weeks back but weren't able to run the dog hard enough to get the collapse. It's a very fit working sheepdog. someone once told me that the reason sheepdogs, even fit ones, are prone to this is that b/c they are concentrating so hard, they don't open their mouth to pant. If this is true, it'd be hard to reproduce with exercise alone. I have seen it once with one of my dogs & 3 times with other dogs, all have been very intense dogs who didn't pant a lot. Edited February 18, 2011 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I would not be content with a 'blood test' diagnosis .... and would be looking at a specialist/vet hospital, where they can do more specific testing . heart/lungs/blood glucose levels... all sorts of things need checking. What did the dog's breeder say? Is there anything like it in any other litters, or siblings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Not yet so far as I know, we tried a few weeks back but weren't able to run the dog hard enough to get the collapse. It's a very fit working sheepdog. someone once told me that the reason sheepdogs, even fit ones, are prone to this is that b/c they are concentrating so hard, they don't open their mouth to pant. If this is true, it'd be hard to reproduce with exercise alone. I have seen it once with one of my dogs & 3 times with other dogs, all have been very intense dogs who didn't pant a lot. Interesting, thanks Vickie, I will file that piece of information away for future use. From the owner's description of the collapsing episodes I think this may be a little different - our specialists are leaning towards an inborn error of metabolism as the cause in this dog. But like I say, we didn't have sufficient space on campus to really work the dog in the way the owner said tended to trigger the collapsing episodes. Hopefully we can persuade the farmer to come back & try again later. It's not my case, but pretty interesting, so I'm keeping an eye on it. Edited February 18, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlemum Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I would not be content with a 'blood test' diagnosis .... and would be looking at a specialist/vet hospital, where they can do more specific testing .heart/lungs/blood glucose levels... all sorts of things need checking. What did the dog's breeder say? Is there anything like it in any other litters, or siblings? I was going to ask this - you beat me to it, Persephone. I would definitely be contacting the breeder, if only to ask if they have had any previous experience of this. To the OP - we're a friendly lot in the Poodle Thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...15&st=19650 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 We have working sheepdogs..and they pant like crazy!! For sure if they are using 'eye' they concentrate for a short time and remain still.. but it's only a very short time . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know a Lab with suspected EIC the fits have been text book and the 'down time' has lasted for up to 10 mins. I have been there once when it happened and the dog was present (you could see by his eyes he looked scared), after the fit he was back to himself. He has had maybe a handful of fits in his life and he is turning 11 this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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