Is Immunity Inherited?

[Panxan]

I would never have thought of this until a friend has had a terrible situation. She has been breeding dogs for years and always takes the utmost care of her dogs and the puppies. She always gets the puppies their first shots before they go home and then picks them up and takes them for their next lot of shots at her own cost just so she knows it has been done. Recently she got a call from a distressed puppy owner saying puppy had died of parvo. She called the vets and was told the pup was in a bad way when taken in and when they tested the blood the pup had zero immunity. They thought it was a dud batch of vaccines and allowed the other pups from that litter to get another booster free of charge.

A few days later the pups owner rings up and says the vet said the pup had no immunity because it was inherited from the parents and the parents must have no immunity. The parents of these puppies have had 14 puppies together and there has never been a problem before and the adults are very healthy dogs regularily wormed flead and vaccinated.

Does anyone here know if there is an inherited aspect to immunity? Not meaning from the mothers milk but genetically from the dam or sires genes?

Thanks for any info.

[Bokezu]

I would never have thought of this until a friend has had a terrible situation. She has been breeding dogs for years and always takes the utmost care of her dogs and the puppies. She always gets the puppies their first shots before they go home and then picks them up and takes them for their next lot of shots at her own cost just so she knows it has been done. Recently she got a call from a distressed puppy owner saying puppy had died of parvo. She called the vets and was told the pup was in a bad way when taken in and when they tested the blood the pup had zero immunity. They thought it was a dud batch of vaccines and allowed the other pups from that litter to get another booster free of charge.

A few days later the pups owner rings up and says the vet said the pup had no immunity because it was inherited from the parents and the parents must have no immunity. The parents of these puppies have had 14 puppies together and there has never been a problem before and the adults are very healthy dogs regularily wormed flead and vaccinated.

Does anyone here know if there is an inherited aspect to immunity? Not meaning from the mothers milk but genetically from the dam or sires genes?

Thanks for any info.

I didn't know immunity to parvo was inherited???, but if I were her I would be having mum and dad tested straight away, that will solve a lot of questions for her.

[Steve]

Its a known fact that some breeds of dogs have a much higher chance of getting parvo than some others - usually they are black and tan.

but immunity issues in general are most definitely able to be inherited.

Jean Dodds - Top notch canine immunologist maintained that if breeders saw anything , anything that might indicate a pup was less immune than another that regardless of how the pup looked the one which had shown no sysmptoms should be the one kept. The example she used was a minor reaction 4 to 8 weeks after a vaccination - maybe a mild skin itch etc should be seen as a marker and that pup should be over looked for breeding. This way you select for a tougher immune system.

Look up parvo black and tan via google.

[Sandra777]

Immunity directly no - but a robust immune system yes, as steve cites above.

Are you sure the puppy owner wasn't confused by the maternal immunity issues and thought the vet meant immunity was inherited from the mother and not acquired from the mother?

The ability to put up the correct immune response to vaccination is definitely linked to a robust immune system which is at least partially genetic but honestly, if the pup had zero immunity I'd be looking at maternal immunity interfering with the original vaccination or a bad batch of vaccine.

[Steve]

Immunity directly no - but a robust immune system yes, as steve cites above.

Are you sure the puppy owner wasn't confused by the maternal immunity issues and thought the vet meant immunity was inherited from the mother and not acquired from the mother?

The ability to put up the correct immune response to vaccination is definitely linked to a robust immune system which is at least partially genetic but honestly, if the pup had zero immunity I'd be looking at maternal immunity interfering with the original vaccination or a bad batch of vaccine.

I have some anti body thingy which makes it impossible for me to be immune to rubella. Ive had it a dozen times and had the needle for it over and over but everytime Im tested for my immunity to rubella I have none. Turns out 2 of my 4 daughters are the same - dont know if the 4 boys are or not because its not such a big deal for boys and they havent been tested for antibodies.

[oakway]

What the others have said but are you absolutely sure what your friend has said is correct.

When we are upset over things at the vets or on the phone it's so easy to get confused over matters.

It can be quite a shock to the system to be told something like that.

[Sandra777]

I have some anti body thingy which makes it impossible for me to be immune to rubella. Ive had it a dozen times and had the needle for it over and over but everytime Im tested for my immunity to rubella I have none. Turns out 2 of my 4 daughters are the same - dont know if the 4 boys are or not because its not such a big deal for boys and they havent been tested for antibodies.

Oooohhh bad breeding stock

Have there ever been any tests done about whether this occurs in dogs or not?

[dancinbcs]

Does the puppy just have no immunity to parvo or no immune system? Two very different things. If the lack of immunity is just to parvo that indicates a problem with the vaccine working. No immunity to anything is a completely different story and could be hereditary.

TNS in Border Collies is a faulty immune system. Basically the bone marrow makes white blood cells but cannot release them into the bloodstream. There are different degrees of it and the dog may have some white cells in the blood or none. No white cells = no immune system. It is inherited as an autosomal recessive gene and the carrier parents are normal healthy dogs, just carrying a recessive gene fault. Statistically a quarter of the puppies will be affected, a quarter normal and half carriers, if both parents carry the gene. TNS is always eventually fatal but the symptoms vary depending on what happens to challenge the immune system, so the symptoms will be of whatever the infection is. This makes it almost impossible to diagnose unless you are specifically looking for it. The gene for it is widespread throughout the Border Collie breed in working and show lines so it has been happening for a very long time.

We managed to get a DNA test developed very quickly (about 12 months) once we really started looking for it, because similar conditions occur in many species. This means that it probably also occurs in many other dog breeds but no one is looking for it. In hindsight many affected Borders died as puppies and were labelled "fading puppies". Others died later from a variety of infections and viruses but now we can trace it through the lines we know many deaths were in fact from TNS.

If this puppy has no immune system then you need to keep a close eye on any siblings for possible other cases. Also ask around among other breeders to see if anyone has lost puppies to various infections. If you find any sort of pattern you need to get together and get a test developed so that carriers can then always be bred to normals, with no resulting affected puppies.

[Wynnlake]

Vaccines are developed by a couple of different methods. An inactivated virus where the virus has been cultured and inactivated is the most common way of making vaccines.

Animals like humans sometimes have the inability to convert this virus to immunity. It is very rare that a human or dog can not convert immunity to every disease unless they are immunocompromised, but it is quite common for an animal or human to not convert to one disease.

[Panxan]

Thanks for all the info. It turns out the person who bought the puppy has an adult dog that has never had vaccinations and had a puppy visiting that had only had one vaccination. Both of those have tested negative for parvo. I will pass on this info to my friend and she can work with the vets to make sure her adults have normal immune systems.

[Kustali]

What was the time frame between vaccinating - and dying from Parvo?

So sorry to hear this.

Edited February 18, 2011 by HANNAH

[centitout]

Immunity directly no - but a robust immune system yes, as steve cites above.

Are you sure the puppy owner wasn't confused by the maternal immunity issues and thought the vet meant immunity was inherited from the mother and not acquired from the mother?

The ability to put up the correct immune response to vaccination is definitely linked to a robust immune system which is at least partially genetic but honestly, if the pup had zero immunity I'd be looking at maternal immunity interfering with the original vaccination or a bad batch of vaccine.

I have some anti body thingy which makes it impossible for me to be immune to rubella. Ive had it a dozen times and had the needle for it over and over but everytime Im tested for my immunity to rubella I have none. Turns out 2 of my 4 daughters are the same - dont know if the 4 boys are or not because its not such a big deal for boys and they havent been tested for antibodies.

I am the same too-had all my hep b course last year for SES,my titre tests when i came to do my aged care course all came back with no immunity to nearly everything.I had mumps as a kid,whooping cough,and measles several times even after 2 lots of the complete courses of vaccinations.Apparently i dont "sero-convert"???

Yet i had psoriasis a few years ago quite badly which is frm an over active immune system??

Maybe the vet meant the maternal antibodies had over ridden the vaccine for the pups.

[Starkehre]

From what I gather, (and I could well be wrong, so this is sort of more checking than giving advice as such) when the bitch passes her immunity to diseases onto the puppies via her milk, this immunity does not last indefinitely in the puppy.

Yes, strength and quality of immune system is different and is inherited and remains with the pup for it's life unless environmental issues come into play.

If the first vaccination was given prior to the trans immunity (that is my own made up phrase, just so you know what I mean ) expiring then according to what I understand, this vaccination does not work, as in I do not believe immunity can be "topped up" so to speak. If there is immunity there, then it is there and vaccination over the top makes no difference.

And that is why we follow up with a 2nd and sometimes 3rd vaccination (depending up on individual vacc protocol), to ensure the pup is covered once the initial immunity from the mum expires, in case that first vaccs was not given at the ideal time when it could be allowed to do it's job.

So, if I am right about the above, I guess in the ideal world, we would all be titre testing prior to vaccs puppies, but that IMO is not overly realistic.

If I am incorrect, someone please feel free to correct me

So, if the above is correct and if I was the breeder, I would be looking at my vaccination protocol. Perhaps her first vaccs has been done too early?

Edited February 18, 2011 by dyzney

[Panxan]

My friend went to see the vets. They were trying to explain how colostrum helps immunity and because they have been the vets my friend uses for years trying to explain to the puppy buyer that it wasn't anything to do with the breeding. This puppy owner is just trying to find someone to blame unfortunately.

The vet feels the puppy had parvo for 4 days or more before she brought it in to the vets and they recommended PTS as too far gone but owner asked for them to do anything to save it. Appears the owner is now not happy with a $1000.00 vet bill and wants anyone else to pay it. She had taken the puppy to her sisters house where a puppy died of parvo 6 months ago. Puppy died 2 weeks after 2nd vaccination.

The vets are just as upset as my friend as a lot of her puppies go on to remain clients of the vets and to see all these healthy happy puppies is hard to see how this one has had such a sad outcome.

Worst part is the puppys owner is straight away looking for a new puppy. She has been told how long parvo can survive but she is still wanting to risk another puppies life.

[Panxan]

From what I gather, (and I could well be wrong, so this is sort of more checking than giving advice as such) when the bitch passes her immunity to diseases onto the puppies via her milk, this immunity does not last indefinitely in the puppy.

Yes, strength and quality of immune system is different and is inherited and remains with the pup for it's life unless environmental issues come into play.

If the first vaccination was given prior to the trans immunity (that is my own made up phrase, just so you know what I mean ) expiring then according to what I understand, this vaccination does not work, as in I do not believe immunity can be "topped up" so to speak. If there is immunity there, then it is there and vaccination over the top makes no difference.

And that is why we follow up with a 2nd and sometimes 3rd vaccination (depending up on individual vacc protocol), to ensure the pup is covered once the initial immunity from the mum expires, in case that first vaccs was not given at the ideal time when it could be allowed to do it's job.

This was what the vets were talking about with the colostrum. Because this puppies dam is a very good feeder the puppies probably would have had very good immunity at the 8 week vaccine. Included in the info my friend gives to puppy buyers is to not take puppy out until at least 7 days after the second vaccination and info on disease including parvo.

The vets feel the first vaccine was ineffective due to pup still having immunity from the dam.

[Starkehre]

That's what I thought.

Sounds like the puppy owners are clearly at fault. Thankfully they are happy to admit this.

Very sad situation nevertheless.

I certainly would not be selling her another puppy.

[Bilbo Baggins]

My friend went to see the vets. They were trying to explain how colostrum helps immunity and because they have been the vets my friend uses for years trying to explain to the puppy buyer that it wasn't anything to do with the breeding. This puppy owner is just trying to find someone to blame unfortunately.

The vet feels the puppy had parvo for 4 days or more before she brought it in to the vets and they recommended PTS as too far gone but owner asked for them to do anything to save it. Appears the owner is now not happy with a $1000.00 vet bill and wants anyone else to pay it. She had taken the puppy to her sisters house where a puppy died of parvo 6 months ago. Puppy died 2 weeks after 2nd vaccination.

The vets are just as upset as my friend as a lot of her puppies go on to remain clients of the vets and to see all these healthy happy puppies is hard to see how this one has had such a sad outcome.

Worst part is the puppys owner is straight away looking for a new puppy. She has been told how long parvo can survive but she is still wanting to risk another puppies life.

This where the issue lies.

I tell my puppy buyers never to take the pup anywhere dogs that have not been vaccinated might be ie the park, until they have had the third vaccinations.

[Panxan]

My friend went to see the vets. They were trying to explain how colostrum helps immunity and because they have been the vets my friend uses for years trying to explain to the puppy buyer that it wasn't anything to do with the breeding. This puppy owner is just trying to find someone to blame unfortunately.

The vet feels the puppy had parvo for 4 days or more before she brought it in to the vets and they recommended PTS as too far gone but owner asked for them to do anything to save it. Appears the owner is now not happy with a $1000.00 vet bill and wants anyone else to pay it. She had taken the puppy to her sisters house where a puppy died of parvo 6 months ago. Puppy died 2 weeks after 2nd vaccination.

The vets are just as upset as my friend as a lot of her puppies go on to remain clients of the vets and to see all these healthy happy puppies is hard to see how this one has had such a sad outcome.

Worst part is the puppys owner is straight away looking for a new puppy. She has been told how long parvo can survive but she is still wanting to risk another puppies life.

This where the issue lies.

I tell my puppy buyers never to take the pup anywhere dogs that have not been vaccinated might be ie the park, until they have had the third vaccinations.

That was included in the info my friend gives to puppy buyers. It did not come out that the puppy buyers sister had a pup die 6 months ago until after this pup died.

Not nice to know it could have been prevented but nice for my friend to know she hasn't done anything wrong in regards to her dogs and the puppies she breeds.