Vet Rough Handling Dog

[Kelly_Louise]

There are few methods of manoevering a reluctant 30 odd kilo dog onto scales that aren't pretty physical. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pick one up to do it.

While that's a good point, and while it may not have physically harmed the dog - I'd probably punch someone if I saw them drag and lift my dog up from the neck by the lead... vet or not, especially when they haven't tried other options or asked me to try to get them to on the scales myself. It's just not what I consider the right thing to do, and not the kind of care that I expect to be given to my dogs.

[poodlefan]

Incidentally, I would always have a dog chiropracted after a GA. You might want to think about that.

Especially when you watch those medical shows on TV and see how doctors treat humans when they're under GA No wonder they wake up bruised and sore!!!

Dogs are usually placed and rolled. With muscles fully relaxed, a lot of stuff can be put 'out'.

[W Sibs]

Incidentally, I would always have a dog chiropracted after a GA. You might want to think about that.

Especially when you watch those medical shows on TV and see how doctors treat humans when they're under GA No wonder they wake up bruised and sore!!!

Dogs are usually placed and rolled. With muscles fully relaxed, a lot of stuff can be put 'out'.

Yep, and that is why Charlie always gets a massage when he wakes up from GA...

[B-Q]

We've left vets and kennels for rough handling.

With one of our old vets the last straw was when he picked Buster up to put him on the table roughly and slammed his chest into the corner of the table.

[poodlefan]

There are few methods of manoevering a reluctant 30 odd kilo dog onto scales that aren't pretty physical. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pick one up to do it.

While that's a good point, and while it may not have physically harmed the dog - I'd probably punch someone if I saw them drag and lift my dog up from the neck by the lead... vet or not, especially when they haven't tried other options or asked me to try to get them to on the scales myself. It's just not what I consider the right thing to do, and not the kind of care that I expect to be given to my dogs.

Every time I lift my whippet up onto the show table, he is lifted under his neck and under his loin. Lets bear in mind that this was a 2 point lift - the dog's hind end was on the ground when the front end was lifted.

I may not appreciate it but I'd not punch a professional for 'direct' handling. I'm at the stage where my vet allows me to handle my dogs for just about anything. They don't need to be 'taken out the back' and held by a nurse because I might be squeamish about what's about to happen or fail to get a good solid hold on the front end of a dog that's about to object with its teeth to having a procedure done.

Maybe its my horse background. You don't pussy foot around with big animals that don't want to do something. I'm sure most animals lovers would be horrified by their first sight of the use of a gag on a horse for dental work. But big animals need to be handled carefully and quickly to avoid injury to those around them. A struggling 30kg Goldie is big enough to put a back out and a vet off work for weeks. I'd not have picked the dog up either. To you its your beloved family pet. To a vet its an animal among hundreds that they see that needs something done and quickly.

I recall seeing NSW police mounted squad members on TV "handling" ponies onto their big horse truck when evacuating a riding school in the path of a fire some years ago. One chucked a wobbly and hit the brakes going on. Four big guys picked it up on each leg, carried it up the ramp and dumped it unceremoniously into the bay. It got the job done.

Edited February 18, 2011 by poodlefan

[Kelly_Louise]

There are few methods of manoevering a reluctant 30 odd kilo dog onto scales that aren't pretty physical. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pick one up to do it.

While that's a good point, and while it may not have physically harmed the dog - I'd probably punch someone if I saw them drag and lift my dog up from the neck by the lead... vet or not, especially when they haven't tried other options or asked me to try to get them to on the scales myself. It's just not what I consider the right thing to do, and not the kind of care that I expect to be given to my dogs.

I may not appreciate it but I'd not punch a professional for 'direct' handling. I'm at the stage where my vet allows me to handle my dogs for just about anything. They don't need to be 'taken out the back' and held by a nurse because I might be squeamish about what's about to happen or fail to get a good solid hold on the front end of a dog that's about to object with its teeth to having a procedure done.

Maybe its my horse background. You don't pussy foot around with big animals that don't want to do something. I'm sure most animals lovers would be horrified by their first sight of the use of a gag on a horse for dental work. But big animals need to be handled carefully and quickly to avoid injury to those around them. A struggling 30kg Goldie is big enough to put a back out and a vet off work for weeks. I'd not have picked the dog up either.

Oh I totally agree especially when you are talking larger animals - but the query is whether the dog was actually struggling/snapping or not, or whether a different method could have been used.

When this type of behaviour becomes the norm, rather than something that is used sparingly for excessively difficult or dangerous dogs - that's when I'd be cutting my losses and looking elsewhere.

I also think that when the owner is there and quite capable of assisting, it was such a small thing as weighing the dog, and he still chose to move the dog in such a way - is quite telling.

My other issue is this... you may work with your dog about accepting a vet examining them/working with them etc. But what if the treatment provided by a vet with the same kind of attitude as this guy, traumatises/scares them (especially if they are not used to being treated so roughly)?

I can understand some points of view, but I certainly wouldn't be tolerating this kind of treatment. Okay maybe I wouldn't punch them (but it would cross my mind), but they'd certainly get an earful and I'd take it as far as I had to, to ensure my dogs get the kind of treatment they deserve.

It doesn't have to be the only way.

[poodlefan]

Oh I totally agree especially when you are talking larger animals - but the query is whether the dog was actually struggling/snapping or not, or whether a different method could have been used.

How would any of us get a reluctant 30kg dog onto scales without risking our backs? I'd go the two point lift too. I see my friend with GR's do this to her dogs every time she gets them into the car. She knows they aren't going to bite her so can be more 'hands on' than using a leash. As an animal professional, I'd expect a vet to adopt the safest handling practice for them and to avoid any risk of a bite. Watch a ranger load a dog into a car and you'll see pretty direct handling including lifting directly into a vehicle via a catchpole around the neck. I don't think that's cruel either in the circumstances.

I also think that when the owner is there and quite capable of assisting, it was such a small thing as weighing the dog, and he still chose to move the dog in such a way - is quite telling.

From my observations of the waiting room at my vet clinic, some owners would be incapable of assisting quickly or effectively. I doubt the OP would be but a veteran vet might find it quicker and easier to handle dogs themselves. I see dogs come in that have difficulty keeping 4 feet on the ground and pay zero attention to their owners. Owners have to haul them onto the scales and still can't keep them there. However, he could have said "just pop the dog on the scales for me" and at my vet that's the default method used.

My other issue is this... you may work with your dog about accepting a vet examining them/working with them etc. But what if the treatment provided by a vet with the same kind of attitude as this guy, traumatises/scares them (especially if they are not used to being treated so roughly)?

How rough was it? I get the impression the dog was coerced but didn't experience any pain. She said the dog was "treated like a ragdoll". If the dog lacked the coordination to get on the scales itself, how else could it have been done?

It doesn't have to be the only way.

True. But any inference of abuse should be very carefully drawn. I pay my vets for their medical knowledge and skill, not to treat my dogs as I would. Don't get me wrong, they are very caring people but if something needs to be done, they'll do what is necessary to achieve a result. And I do what is necessary to prepare my dogs to be handled.

Howard is having blood drawn today for a titre. I will strongly suggest I be the one holding him but if the vet insists it be a nurse, I'll go with that. Its their safety and their livelihood at stake when they handle animals.

Edited February 18, 2011 by poodlefan

[Odin-Genie]

There are few methods of manoevering a reluctant 30 odd kilo dog onto scales that aren't pretty physical. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pick one up to do it.

While that's a good point, and while it may not have physically harmed the dog - I'd probably punch someone if I saw them drag and lift my dog up from the neck by the lead... vet or not, especially when they haven't tried other options or asked me to try to get them to on the scales myself. It's just not what I consider the right thing to do, and not the kind of care that I expect to be given to my dogs.

Totally agree. While it may not physically hurt them, it may affect them psychologically if they are not used to rough handling.

My vet would always ask me or OH to put our dogs on the scales. We also hold our dogs for vaccinations, removals of stiches etc. When my dogs are unwilling to go on the scales, we have physically lifted them. And that includes my GR.

If someone treated my dogs like that in front of me, I would seriously worry what they would do behind my back.

[Staranais]

In my mind the issue really hinges on whether the dog was in any pain or fear during the handling procedure.

If the dog was hurt or scared by the handling, then that's not on, and the handling was inappropriate.

But if the dog wasn't hurt or scared by the handling, then I'd say that the vet is merely guilty of offending the owner. That was silly of him, and was bad for business, but doesn't necessarily make him a bad or unkind vet.

[poodlefan]

I think you are being over protective toward the dog.

The vet wants your custom he does not want to drive you away.

The vet does not necessarily have to know the weight of your dog as somebody else may have weighed and given the anesthetic.

Remember it's a busy vet surgery and the vet may have wanted to go and see other seriously ill patients.

Not all dogs are handled the same way as you and I do especially a very groggy one.

Cheers.

My guess is the vet knew the weight of the dog for the op but didnt' remember precisely for worming. How many animals did he see that day? How many procedures did he do that day? At least he checked.

OP has the option of changing vets and changing how she handles these matters in future. I suppose that's what matters.

[Kelly_Louise]

True. But any inference of abuse should be very carefully drawn. I pay my vets for their medical knowledge and skill, not to treat my dogs as I would. Don't get me wrong, they are very caring people but if something needs to be done, they'll do what is necessary to achieve a result. And I do what is necessary to prepare my dogs to be handled.

I see your point and acknowledge it. I wouldn't class this incident as abuse in any way, but I do find it is a lack of caring. Everyone is different, and I do expect my dogs to be treated a certain way (not mollycoddled, and not to put the professionals in danger). As I mentioned, when I took my elderly dog in for a blood test, and had her come out extremely lame because of their lack of care in handling her (and she is a regular so is very compliant, doesn't bite etc) I was extremely upset - but that is from my own experience and has probably influenced my views pretty strongly.

I also try to prepare my dogs as much as I can and agree that owners should all do this. With my rescue dog who has a massive fear of vets, it's been a long, hard road - but we have made so much progress now we have found the right vet for her that will handle her in a caring way and be flexible (allows me to move her around or adjust her or hold her in a certain position if she needs to be - because I agree that they shouldn't have to do all these things themselves). Sometimes a little understanding and patience can make a big difference to a dog (and to an owner who is trying their best).

There are so many vets who will be understanding and caring, and suit both dog and owner needs better. I've found the hard way that not all vets suit all patients. I have found though, that most vets will work with you if you talk to them about any issues and offer to be actively involved in the case of difficult dogs (or discuss options if the owner is not able to undertake some actions).

For people who hand over a not so happy or co-operative dog and expect a vet to handle and treat them without a second thought, well, that's a different story... because yes, they are there to do a specific job and shouldn't have to be put in danger to do it.

[Magstar]

Wow a lot of replies! Thank you everyone for your imput.

I guess the thing that really annoys me is that he didn't even give Oscar a chance to comply. He was still groggy and was taken by surpise when the vet started pulling him by the lead and so put on the brakes immediately. It all happened so quickly that there was no way he could cooperate, he had no idea what was happening! So it wasn't because Oscar was being difficult or anything. He gave him no chance.

I guess it may have looked worse than it was because he was groggy and therefore acting a bit uncoordinated, but I would be treating a groggy dog with more care, not less! But that could just be me.

There is also a chance that I am being too sensitive/protective, especially since losing my other dog only a couple of weeks ago. I know he probably wasn't physically harmed, or even in any pain. I guess my main concern is that he will now have a fear of going to the vets for life.

And as for the vet being busy, we were the only ones there, and so time wasn't an issue.

[poodlefan]

If the OP finds the vet's handling of her dog brusque or callous, then perhaps she needs a different vet. One more suited to her priorities who fits better with her.

We all prioritise these issues differently. Same as a GP - mine is pretty direct, very knowledgeable and doesn't sugar coat things. I like that.

My vet is pretty much the same albeit with a better 'bedside manner' than the OP's.

If this has caused the OP to lack trust that her vet will do the best for her dog then a switch would be a very good idea. And as for fearing vets for life, take him back and weigh him and reward him. Don't project any concern onto him.. just see what happens. Given that he is outside his critical socialisaton periods, I'd not expect any issues from an experience that didn't appear to traumatise him.

Two of my dogs hate going to the vet but its not the vet's fault.

Edited February 18, 2011 by poodlefan

[persephone]

I think..if you take Oscar back to the vets just for treats/a weigh-in ..and YOU DON'T SHOW FEAR/ANXIETY then you'll soon see

Most of it will be what he picks up from you.

If he was so groggy.. then any memory will be a very hazy one ....

The more you churn it around in your head.. the more vibes you send the dog. My old dog used to hate the vets.. his teeth would chatter. I just totally ignored him.. and he was made to walk in & out with no fuss/acknowledgement. he didn't like it, but he did it.

[Magstar]

And as for fearing vets for life, take him back and weigh him and reward him. Don't project any concern onto him.. just see what happens. Given that he is outside his critical socialisaton periods, I'd not expect any issues from an experience that didn't appear to traumatise him.

Two of my dogs hate going to the vet but its not the vet's fault.

Thanks, I will definately do that.

[poodlemum]

There are few methods of manoevering a reluctant 30 odd kilo dog onto scales that aren't pretty physical. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pick one up to do it.

While that's a good point, and while it may not have physically harmed the dog - I'd probably punch someone if I saw them drag and lift my dog up from the neck by the lead... vet or not, especially when they haven't tried other options or asked me to try to get them to on the scales myself. It's just not what I consider the right thing to do, and not the kind of care that I expect to be given to my dogs.

Totally agree. While it may not physically hurt them, it may affect them psychologically if they are not used to rough handling.

My vet would always ask me or OH to put our dogs on the scales. We also hold our dogs for vaccinations, removals of stiches etc. When my dogs are unwilling to go on the scales, we have physically lifted them. And that includes my GR.

If someone treated my dogs like that in front of me, I would seriously worry what they would do behind my back.

I would worry about that too - one of my dogs was TERRIFIED of groomers after he was obviously treated very roughly. He was a very well-behaved dog, obedience trained, so I can't see that it would have been necessary to be rough with him. Luckily I found another groomer who was good at handling nervous/frightened dogs and he eventually looked forward to being groomed.

[poodlemum]

If the OP finds the vet's handling of her dog brusque or callous, then perhaps she needs a different vet. One more suited to her priorities who fits better with her.

We all prioritise these issues differently. Same as a GP - mine is pretty direct, very knowledgeable and doesn't sugar coat things. I like that.

My vet is pretty much the same albeit with a better 'bedside manner' than the OP's.

If this has caused the OP to lack trust that her vet will do the best for her dog then a switch would be a very good idea. And as for fearing vets for life, take him back and weigh him and reward him. Don't project any concern onto him.. just see what happens. Given that he is outside his critical socialisaton periods, I'd not expect any issues from an experience that didn't appear to traumatise him.

Two of my dogs hate going to the vet but its not the vet's fault.

On the other side of the coin I had a Vet, many years ago, who was SOOO lovely and had such a nice manner that my Standard Poodle LOVED going to the Vet!

[Aziah]

Wow a lot of replies! Thank you everyone for your imput.

I guess the thing that really annoys me is that he didn't even give Oscar a chance to comply. He was still groggy and was taken by surpise when the vet started pulling him by the lead and so put on the brakes immediately. It all happened so quickly that there was no way he could cooperate, he had no idea what was happening! So it wasn't because Oscar was being difficult or anything. He gave him no chance.

I guess it may have looked worse than it was because he was groggy and therefore acting a bit uncoordinated, but I would be treating a groggy dog with more care, not less! But that could just be me.

There is also a chance that I am being too sensitive/protective, especially since losing my other dog only a couple of weeks ago. I know he probably wasn't physically harmed, or even in any pain. I guess my main concern is that he will now have a fear of going to the vets for life.And as for the vet being busy, we were the only ones there, and so time wasn't an issue.

...and my main concern is that you now have it in your head that he WILL have a fear of going to the vet and you'll cue it to happen. If he was as groggy and unco-ordinated as you say he was then there's a very real chance it was a all a blur for him.

He wasn't injured or harmed in anyway, isn't worse for wear so going along thinking he'll have a life long fear of going to the vet is just asking for trouble.

Speak the vet, if you still don't feel satisfied try a new vet but regardless of those options forget the "incident" so you don't deliberately cue the dog next time you head to the vet.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Aziah

[Adza]

Maybe the dog was too groggy to even notice or remember what happened maybe just got surprised and will be fine next time? who knows, hope he is ok.

But I would probably go to another vet if I am going to worry about how they handle my dog when I'm not there, it's not worth the stress and worry but that's just me. Impressions last on me and hard to change if I saw that I would be upset about it too seeing my dog came out of surgery I would expect calmer handling.

Lucky for me, my vet lets us do the weighing, put her on the table etc which is how I prefer it.