Kirty Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I posted a week or so back about whether or not giving Pia fluffy toys would increase her 'cat' drive. I ended up giving her some toys that are fluffy but not at all cat like, however I have noticed a huge change already! She plays with the toys a lot but often transfers this to the cats. She will be throwing a toy around, spot a cat and chase it. Naughty girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 play is a dogs way of exploring and building drive Kirty I gave you a link on toys, dont give a greyhound that lives with a cat fluffy things to destroy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 K9: I would seriously have a good think about the big picture before you decide to extinguish or try and extinguish prey drive in a dog. Most commonly people only end up managing this in very controlled circumstances, and when the dog is not under this management, the dog is often worse as it is trying desperately to recover some drive satisfaction. Prey drive in a dog is a genetic feature, just like if you try and colour your white dog black, the white will grow back unless you constantly manage it. Training your dog how to achieve drive satisfaction may be a better idea, there are rules of engagement in which some items are not allowed to be considered prey, such as small animals, children etc, so training shifts the focus off those items onto more successful prey EG your toys. As a separate thought, imagine if we were talking about high food drive, we wouldnt be trying to kill that, we would be talking about channeling it, prey is really no different in terms of the dog requiring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 K9Pro can a dogs modified prey drive (ie herding) be so strong that playing with toys is meaningless to a dog? Both my girls have very strong herding drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 K9: You can look at it this way, some dogs have a favourite toy, they wont play with others, some dogs will chase lizards or stock but not play with toys. This is generally because of the way they were introduced to prey drive, as they have a successful way to satisfy drive, they aren't easily triggered by a new trigger. Doesn't mean it can be done, it is just easier when you start with the prey style you will be training with. It can be a matter of restricting their access to prey and then offering another avenue with many dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If I asked my dogs to play with a toy around sheep, I think they'd probably bite me I know heaps of very talented working dogs with incredibly strong instinct who play full on with toys, just not around livestock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) I also know dogs who have great drive for food & toys in play/tricks but will not take them in agility because they were trained without them. These are dogs with very high work ethic. I am sure they could be trained to take them and enjoy it, but it would involve using agility as a reward for taking the toy/food until they worked out what the rules were. I'm not sure the same could be done with a sheepdog. Edited February 21, 2011 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) 3 out of my 5 borders have gotten more drive satisfaction from chasing the dog that is playing with the toy. lol. Border collie 1 did chase balls but he was my first border and so didn't have a dog to chase. The other border is just special, lol. ETA: All 5 borders have had a high work ethic and do work very nicely anyway. Edited February 21, 2011 by JulesP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 K9: lol it depends a lot on how the dogs were exposed to prey, but agree that many dogs will choose one prey item and not trigger on another at all if their primary prey item is in play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If I asked my dogs to play with a toy around sheep, I think they'd probably bite me I know heaps of very talented working dogs with incredibly strong instinct who play full on with toys, just not around livestock. Very true, Vickie. Goes for food drive as well. Even my show/performance bred Agility girl Kirra, when she was working sheep, was definitely completely uninterested in any rewards other than being allowed to work sheep. Most of the rest of her training has been food or toy rewarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 K9: lol it depends a lot on how the dogs were exposed to prey, but agree that many dogs will choose one prey item and not trigger on another at all if their primary prey item is in play... This is a really funky and interesting phenomenon according to Panksepp's book on affective neuroscience. There have been some fascinating studies on it in rats. For many "drivey" rats, they can easily be switched onto obsessively carrying out another activity entirely by making the preferred one impossible. If they make the first one available again, the rats often don't go back to it, preferring the new outlet instead. This is part of the existing evidence against specific reward circuits in the brain. Ken Ramirez at the APDT conference last year said that an animal has to be taught to accept different rewards in different scenarios. Otherwise they will develop reward expectations and will have no interest in rewards outside of those expectations. To me, this falls in line with both the effects of psychological establishing operations and what we know so far of the SEEKING brain mode and the interactions between SEEKING and consumption. Sorry. I had a geek out. Going back under my rock, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 C: This is a really funky and interesting phenomenon according to Panksepp's book on affective neuroscience. There have been some fascinating studies on it in rats. For many "drivey" rats, they can easily be switched onto obsessively carrying out another activity entirely by making the preferred one impossible. If they make the first one available again, the rats often don't go back to it, preferring the new outlet instead. This is part of the existing evidence against specific reward circuits in the brain. K9: Well dogs must not be that different then I dont have any experience with rats, well none worth sharing but with a dog this method works quite well. They may start totally fixed on one style or type of prey, but when that option is removed, reward pressure creates behaviour plasticity and they will transfer their interest to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) K9Pro wrote: They may start totally fixed on one style or type of prey, but when that option is removed, reward pressure creates behaviour plasticity and they will transfer their interest to another. Both appropriately and inappropriately. Though I guess its like anything the more exposure to variety the more adaptable to they are to different styles or types of prey in the future. So I guess it comes back to if you want a dog that accepts a variety of "toys" as prey items then you expose that same dog to a variety of objects before they have a chance to become totally fixed on one style. Assuming the rate of acceptance increases the more the dog is exposed to a variety. ETA. JulesP wrote: K9Pro can a dogs modified prey drive (ie herding) be so strong that playing with toys is meaningless to a dog? Both my girls have very strong herding drives. I guess is that not the same for those dogs who "appear" to have strong herding styles when playing at the park with other dogs but yet do not exhibit the same behavior when placed on stock. Edited February 21, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I guess is that not the same for those dogs who "appear" to have strong herding styles when playing at the park with other dogs but yet do not exhibit the same behavior when placed on stock. First you need to work out if the behavior is really herding. Or is it just chasing? Then you do need to train the dog on the stock. Give them encouragement etc. I've seen heaps of dogs now have their first go on sheep and they don't always switch on in the first go or the second or the third. If they have been told off for chasing cats, chickens, horses etc that may make them think they aren't allowed to work the sheep. They might be a bit scared of the big sheepies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I wonder if movement is the only thing that stimulates true prey drive. At work if I have a dog that goes ho hum with the toy I bring out the fox or rabbit skins do exactly the same things and watch those doggies chase particually with the fox. Those that do chase go ballistic with the skins. I posted a week or so back about whether or not giving Pia fluffy toys would increase her 'cat' drive. I ended up giving her some toys that are fluffy but not at all cat like, however I have noticed a huge change already! She plays with the toys a lot but often transfers this to the cats. She will be throwing a toy around, spot a cat and chase it. Naughty girl. Yes had I seen your previous post I would have strongly advised against it, even if you have total control of the game, the instinct to chase a living thing that may have laid dorment for even years can be awakened. (Corvus)If they make the first one available again, the rats often don't go back to it, preferring the new outlet instead. This is part of the existing evidence against specific reward circuits in the brain. (K9)They may start totally fixed on one style or type of prey, but when that option is removed, reward pressure creates behaviour plasticity and they will transfer their interest to another. Ths is probably a difficult question but can you give an estimate on how many trials for this to be achieved, on average? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astese Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 K9Pro - My girl has never played with toys, sticks or anything else. I have a hep load of toys but she ignores them. I asked the owner of her sire and she said that he was the same never played with toys. But she will follow the cat around the house all day long. It has made it quite hard for me to train her as she will not hold or fetch. What can you suggest as I will soon be in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 K9Pro - My girl has never played with toys, sticks or anything else. I have a hep load of toys but she ignores them. I asked the owner of her sire and she said that he was the same never played with toys. But she will follow the cat around the house all day long.It has made it quite hard for me to train her as she will not hold or fetch. What can you suggest as I will soon be in Open. This is how I tackle it - http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I enjoyed your geek out Corvus I'm fascinated watching my pup's development - loves toys, chases butterflies and lizards, is retrieving dummies well but sees a bird and WOW! Everything changes in her world. We will have her retrieving birds very soon and I can't wait to see how that affects her training. She is just sensational with the cats too - chasey and wrestling with one willing participant/instigator and (mostly) very self-controlled with the others. And as for retrieving with a non-toy motivated dog, I agree with JulesP. If I can teach a Dally to retrieve with enthusiasm (not repeatedly mind you!) anyone can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 K9Pro wrote: They may start totally fixed on one style or type of prey, but when that option is removed, reward pressure creates behaviour plasticity and they will transfer their interest to another. Both appropriately and inappropriately. K9: Lol well for us maybe, but the dog will always think its appropriate. Though I guess its like anything the more exposure to variety the more adaptable to they are to different styles or types of prey in the future. So I guess it comes back to if you want a dog that accepts a variety of "toys" as prey items then you expose that same dog to a variety of objects before they have a chance to become totally fixed on one style. Assuming the rate of acceptance increases the more the dog is exposed to a variety. K9: And further to that using various tugs helps stop the dog becoming focused on the tug but more focused on the game. MJ: I wonder if movement is the only thing that stimulates true prey drive. At work if I have a dog that goes ho hum with the toy I bring out the fox or rabbit skins do exactly the same things and watch those doggies chase particually with the fox. Those that do chase go ballistic with the skins. K9: I think it is ideal to train the dog not to trigger off movement when training in drive, so that you can trigger drive with a phrase for example, rather than always having to swing the toy around. MJ: This is probably a difficult question but can you give an estimate on how many trials for this to be achieved, on average? K9: Too many variables really, depends on the dogs level of drive, reward history and skill of the handler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 K9Pro - My girl has never played with toys, sticks or anything else. I have a hep load of toys but she ignores them. I asked the owner of her sire and she said that he was the same never played with toys. But she will follow the cat around the house all day long. K9: Following the cat around most likely isnt done in prey drive, especially as the cat is still around . You may find that your particular dog does not have a lot or any usable prey drive, meaning you would be better developing one of the other drives. It has made it quite hard for me to train her as she will not hold or fetch. What can you suggest as I will soon be in Open. K9: I first want to create a motivation system with the dog that teaches the dog to engage with me before I will teach anything, otherwise it can dramatically slow things down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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