Aggressive Reactivity

[Keira&Phoenix]

Keira is a 3 year old Xbreed (Bullmastiff, dane, ridgeback) I have had her since she was 8 weeks old, we didn't attend puppy school (I know my mistake). At 10 months she had a luxatting patella and had surgery. At 18 months we did Obedience classes with her. She has had on and off problems since she was 18 months old with her leg hurting every now and again. She was diagnosed with Hip Displaxia and I have been doing hydrotherapy with her to manage it. While ever she was healthy I made a point of walking her regularly, going to dog parks and hitting the beach. She has always had mild leash aggression issues (ie: getting a bit upset, barking when a dog would come running up to her whilst she was on leash) but was always fine off leash no problems.

Recently her reactivity to dogs has become what I would call extreme. She will react to dogs barking behind fences, dogs walking towards us on the other side of the road, dogs walking on the footpath when we are in a car etc, to the point where I cannot take her into a dog park because she carries on so much before we get to the park and the longer I stay away the harder it gets for me to gain the confident to go in and the worse her reactivity gets. To give you an idea of her reaction she will start lunging forwards and making a weird gravelly, growling sound whilst sort of barking also, it sounds very guttural but I have noticed when I am patient and wait out the initial reaction it will usual calm down a bit and she will continue to pull on the lead but will whine and sort of cry. I have also on occasion been able to get her to continue walking with just the crying and whining. I have also noticed she only tends to react when the dogs are coming towards us, looking at us, barking at us etc, if the dog is walking in the same direction or not paying us attention she doesn't seem to notice.

She has NEVER attacked another dog, she was always the dog heading in the other direction if there were issues at a park. She lived with my brothers labrador for a few months and we had no dramas, she currently lives with my sisters dog no dramas and my 6 mo pup Phoenix with no issues. Although when we first moved into the house with my sisters dog (Gidget), Gidget did on 1 - 2 occasions have a go at Keira but nothing major more a small bite not full blown attack, and they are not really friends they just tolerate each other.

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them and I miss having her with me, I feel like a terrible mum leaving her at home and taking Phoenix but I just can't because if she doesn't want to behave I can't just leave her in the car or something.

I have spoken to my Trainers about her and will be having them out as soon as I possibly can but wanted to know if anyone had any advise on how to manage this and possibly make it a little better? Has anyone had the same issues and had success rehabilitating, is so what were your methods? Any advice I am keen to hear it. Thanks.

Sorry this is a novel

[ChristineX]

Novels can be good - you get all the important information!

Firstly, has anything changed with her physical condition/s? That's the first thing to rule out.

Second, a good behaviouralist if she is physically no worse than usual. You'd be looking at a desenitisation programme, and upping your skills in dog handling (at least, that is how it is working for Duke and me) Keep in mind, unless there is an acute cause, this is a long term programme, not immediate success.

Duke, who is reactive and hysterical (not in the funny ha ha sense) is now in his fourth year of 'therapy'. He gets better each year, so I keep working on the issues.

Good luck

[Keira&Phoenix]

HI Christine,

Thanks for your reply. I have ordered the Click to Calm book, I am hoping that can be of assistance. I will look into a few other books also.

In regards to her physical condition its hard to tell really she doesn't really show it, she will still carry on like a pup when excited. In saying that because of her hip displaxia the physio said she already has arthritis, obviously that will continue to worsen so its possible that it has gotten to a stage in which she is in a fair amount of pain from that but not showing it really, she is a bit stiff when making small movements but as I said before will carry on like a pup when excited. I manage it by only short walks, walking on grass not pavement and swimming, I hope its making a difference. I am also taking her to see a highly recommend Vet/Chiro down in Ormeau - Rowan at Animal Options next Tuesday apparently he can work wonders, so I am hoping there is something he can tell me that can help to reduce any pain she may be in, hopefully I will see at least a small change in behaviour then.

I deal with a good Behavioural trainer through my puppy classes, I have already spoken to him about Keira and gotten a few pointers. I will be having them out to see her as soon as I possibly can.

I am a stress head and I had a bit of a break down early, I have calmed down a bit now and come up with a plan of attack to start off with.

Wow 4 years is a very long time, good on you for sticking to it, I hope it doesn't take that long for Keira but I am willing to do whatever it takes. Sometimes I think that even if I can get her to a stage where she doesn't react or ignores other dogs to a degree, I can deal with that I don't need her to make friends at least then she can be with us when we go places.

Thanks again for your reply!

[Nekhbet]

1) stop putting your own feelings on the dog

2) if the dog has had a lifetime of chronic pain at any level, you will find it more on edge and willing to aggress. It's common enough

3) without seeing the dog its hard to say what exactly it is. I'm making a guess. It could be late onset maturity that has now made her asseritive, your own allowances that have seen her snowball etc. Get a behaviourist in, someone who understands pain, aggression etc not just a trainer.

My own rottweiler is becoming more and more reluctant to leave the house or meet other dogs. He loves a drive but a walk or a play sends him stressy he associates it with pain. So he goes on a lot of drives, we have visitors for him a lot and dont let visiting dogs harass him as he is very touchy about his legs when they come near him. Not a 'perfect' life by stereotype but for him he's happy.

ETA dont start reading books and just asking for pointers. You have a big problem that needs proper professional help not DIY. The money and time you spend on th books could be better spent learning from a proper professional.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Nekhbet

[huski]

I agree with Nekhbet - best to get a professional experienced in dealing with aggression out as soon as possible.

[Aidan3]

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them

Are you sure? Sounds like she would hate them, but I can only go off what you have described above.

[corvus]

While you're waiting for professional help, I think it's a good rule of thumb that if your dog is barking, whining, lunging, tongue flicking, stiff, or staring, then you are too close to the trigger. Either stop and wait for the trigger to move away (or your dog to start thinking again) or move your dog away until they can act normally again. Watch her tail especially. You want it to be relaxed, low if the dog normally carries their tail low, and if it's wagging it should be a loose wag. If it's up, stiff, or wagging stiffly, then back off if you can.

[Nekhbet]

by the way what are you walking the dog on? collar/harness?

[Keira&Phoenix]

1) stop putting your own feelings on the dog

2) if the dog has had a lifetime of chronic pain at any level, you will find it more on edge and willing to aggress. It's common enough

3) without seeing the dog its hard to say what exactly it is. I'm making a guess. It could be late onset maturity that has now made her asseritive, your own allowances that have seen her snowball etc. Get a behaviourist in, someone who understands pain, aggression etc not just a trainer.

My own rottweiler is becoming more and more reluctant to leave the house or meet other dogs. He loves a drive but a walk or a play sends him stressy he associates it with pain. So he goes on a lot of drives, we have visitors for him a lot and dont let visiting dogs harass him as he is very touchy about his legs when they come near him. Not a 'perfect' life by stereotype but for him he's happy.

ETA dont start reading books and just asking for pointers. You have a big problem that needs proper professional help not DIY. The money and time you spend on th books could be better spent learning from a proper professional.

What feelings do you think I am putting on the dog? Sorry just curious as to what I said that made you think I was doing that.

As I said I am getting behaviorists in as soon as I possibly can but it doesn't come cheap and I also wanted her to see the specialist vet and get his recommendations, see what treatment we can do for her pain then get the behaviorist in.

I agree with Nekhbet - best to get a professional experienced in dealing with aggression out as soon as possible.

See above

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them

Are you sure? Sounds like she would hate them, but I can only go off what you have described above.

Yes I am sure, I do know my dog and its not like we didn't used to do it, it just became very irregular due to her pain and then things became like it is now. She enjoys going out, going to the beach, being with me and seeing new places, people etc and I can't do that with her right now because she is so reactive. I also think the lack of doing those things is causing the situation to become worse, because her arousal levels are higher because she is excited to be doing them.

While you're waiting for professional help, I think it's a good rule of thumb that if your dog is barking, whining, lunging, tongue flicking, stiff, or staring, then you are too close to the trigger. Either stop and wait for the trigger to move away (or your dog to start thinking again) or move your dog away until they can act normally again. Watch her tail especially. You want it to be relaxed, low if the dog normally carries their tail low, and if it's wagging it should be a loose wag. If it's up, stiff, or wagging stiffly, then back off if you can.

Thanks Corvus, I try not to put her in a situation where I know she is going to react, so I walk her after dark mostly as its not busy not much chance of passing dogs but we do pass houses with barking dogs behind fences, mostly they are across the street and her reaction is not as bad although her panting picks up a bit and she might whine, but if she looks then looks away without reacting I am making sure to click and treat that. If we do happen to come up to a dog, I walk off to the side, ask for a sit and click reward for attention to me.

I will keep an eye on her tail from now on. Cheers.

by the way what are you walking the dog on? collar/harness?

A black dog infin8 collar.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[Aidan3]

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them

Are you sure? Sounds like she would hate them, but I can only go off what you have described above.

Yes I am sure, I do know my dog and its not like we didn't used to do it, it just became very irregular due to her pain and then things became like it is now. She enjoys going out, going to the beach, being with me and seeing new places, people etc and I can't do that with her right now because she is so reactive.

I have no doubt at all that she does enjoy going out and being with you, but in situations where she is being reactive (e.g dog park, DOL meetings) she can't tell you any more clearly that she doesn't like being there than by being reactive. I do understand what it is like living with a reactive dog, apart from having one of my own I work with half a dozen or more every week, and I know that things that your dog really enjoys can be limited because of factors you can't fully control for your dog. But if you find yourself in situations where your dog is barking, lunging etc it's a good sign to avoid that situation.

Every reactive dog is a little bit different. I can walk lots of places with other dogs because my dog is trained, but I avoid places where we can't get plenty of room when we need it. She doesn't enjoy herself if she has to "deal with it" and much prefers if we stay off the beaten track a bit.

[Keira&Phoenix]

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them

Are you sure? Sounds like she would hate them, but I can only go off what you have described above.

Yes I am sure, I do know my dog and its not like we didn't used to do it, it just became very irregular due to her pain and then things became like it is now. She enjoys going out, going to the beach, being with me and seeing new places, people etc and I can't do that with her right now because she is so reactive.

I have no doubt at all that she does enjoy going out and being with you, but in situations where she is being reactive (e.g dog park, DOL meetings) she can't tell you any more clearly that she doesn't like being there than by being reactive. I do understand what it is like living with a reactive dog, apart from having one of my own I work with half a dozen or more every week, and I know that things that your dog really enjoys can be limited because of factors you can't fully control for your dog. But if you find yourself in situations where your dog is barking, lunging etc it's a good sign to avoid that situation.

Every reactive dog is a little bit different. I can walk lots of places with other dogs because my dog is trained, but I avoid places where we can't get plenty of room when we need it. She doesn't enjoy herself if she has to "deal with it" and much prefers if we stay off the beaten track a bit.

Totally get what your saying. Sorry I am having trouble expressing exactly what I mean I guess.

She is the sort of dog who absolutely looked forward to going to the park and meeting all the other dogs (sniffing bums and all that ) , she LOVED it, I think through lack of doing it due to her health issues it has become such a cause of high arousal levels (due to excitement) it then turns to stress and anxiousness because she can't deal with it and she can't get to the dog to meet it (I think she also pre-empts the fact that she isn't going to meet the dogs) and that's when this behaviour presents. In a familiar situation (like home which doesn't present the same excitement levels as say a walk or drive) ie: when my brother brings his dog over or with Phoenix it doesn't happen at all and she plays with them happy as larry. Phoenix can be carrying on like a loony (jumping around being a general pup and showing high arousal levels) and she has no reaction at all.

On another interesting note could it partly be blamed on bad genes?? I know people who also own one of her sisters from the same litter and she is DA and has actually attacked other dogs on 2 occasions.

[Nekhbet]

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them

that and feeling bad for the dog because she cant go out. Big deal, you are meant to be the dogs primary concern not other dogs. In fact meeting so many new dogs in unnatural for a wild canine, it will usually end in posturing or territorial display instead of a bum wag and a play time.

When you have chronic pain, it tarnishes your experiences in life. Trust me I have it.

Her arousal level is probably more due to associating outside = pain, then you not taking her out. If she is still in pain, she fulfills her own expectation ... that outside the house and other dogs = pain. Take her out again, she sees a dog, everything is sore anyway so dog brain goes 'ahaaa see I KNEW IT WOULD HURT!' and flips her lid.

You did not mention genetics. If the sister is DA, what are the parents like. It could be environmental but it wouldnt surprise me if she also has DA tendencies. Saying that, a predisposition is not a guarentee. If I rode that wave then all 3 of my dogs should technically be tearing either other dogs or people apart. And they dont.

Sounds like you need to invest in a prong collar before anything else.

[Keira&Phoenix]

It breaks my heart I can't take her to the dog parks and DOL meetings with me because I know she would love them

that and feeling bad for the dog because she cant go out. Big deal, you are meant to be the dogs primary concern not other dogs. In fact meeting so many new dogs in unnatural for a wild canine, it will usually end in posturing or territorial display instead of a bum wag and a play time.

When you have chronic pain, it tarnishes your experiences in life. Trust me I have it.

Her arousal level is probably more due to associating outside = pain, then you not taking her out. If she is still in pain, she fulfills her own expectation ... that outside the house and other dogs = pain. Take her out again, she sees a dog, everything is sore anyway so dog brain goes 'ahaaa see I KNEW IT WOULD HURT!' and flips her lid.

You did not mention genetics. If the sister is DA, what are the parents like. It could be environmental but it wouldnt surprise me if she also has DA tendencies. Saying that, a predisposition is not a guarentee. If I rode that wave then all 3 of my dogs should technically be tearing either other dogs or people apart. And they dont.

Sounds like you need to invest in a prong collar before anything else.

Its not that I want her to go out and meet hundreds of other dogs I just want her to be able to come out and spend time with me and Phoenix outside of the house, she cries when I put Phoenix in the car and take her out somewhere and I want to be able to include her so she doesn't feel left out or sad (yes I know sad is a human feeling but she cries I don't know how else to interpret that). I want her to have a good life not just to survive. For Keira that's going out and exploring because that's something she enjoys/loves doing, but at the moment its hard because if we accidentally come upon a dog I have to try and hang onto her and Phoenix, I also don't want Phoenix around when she is carrying on like that.

But if she associated outside/walks with pain would she be excited to go? Like when I pull out her lead she is visibly excited definitely not scared or worried. Or is what you are saying that over time the association has just moved onto dogs she sees whilst out walking/out of the house? Sorry I am just trying to make sense of what you are saying in my own terms.

Yeah sorry I only remembered today as I was replying to people that her sister is DA to a certain degree. I understand its not a guaranteed reason as to why she has these issues I just mentioned it as a curio/possible contributor to the issues.

Oh ok, so you would recommend a prong collar? I get mixed reviews/remarks about them depending on the person I am speaking to.

Would a prong collar help to modify the behaviour or just to manage it?

Thanks for your reply's Nehkbet.

ETA: Just read about your dog Diesel, poor fella. Keira isn't that bad but she also has severe skin issues and had demodex mites when she was 4 months old, she is currently suffering from skin irritation on her back from her tail towards her mid section, which I am struggling to get rid of.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[hortfurball]

Oh wow, what fun for you. I had similar issues but spread over more than one dog. From my experience I'd say try not to dwell too much on it and over analyse everything, you'll do your own head in and your worrying won't help the dog but may escalate matters or make you second guess yourself too much. Deep breath, calm down and deal with it in small steps - sometimes it doesn't help to know all the whys and wherefores (or it is impossible to know for sure) you just have to commit to tackling it long term with a steady plan of action and a multi-pronged approach. It sounds to me like you are doing the right thing in the interim with your 'distract then treat for ignore' approach until you can see the behaviourist.

You have been given some good advice on tackling the reactivity, from the behaviourist recommendations through dealing with it in the meantime, so the only other thing that hasn't yet been covered is pain relief. My little girl who had HD used to be fine and friendly with other dogs for the first lap of the park, but snappy on the second lap, so I knew her pain limits and simply took her home after one lap. Learn to read your dog's pain levels, and her reaction to pain escalation, and reduce the pain as best you can. I was managing my girl's HD with Joint Guard (ingredients include Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM) to help lubricate the joints and Cartrophen injections (speak to your vet about this - it is often recommended for dogs with arthritis and joint issues, and is usually given three times per year) as well as the swimming to strengthen the supporting muscles. She also had Rimadyl on the odd occasions in winter or changes in weather when she really struggled to rise so I could tell it was bad.

My current dog reactive issues are slightly different to yours (my girl can't be trusted off leash so I keep her on leash and stick to places where it is unlikely other dogs will be off leash and able to approach her and I walk with eagle eyes ready to put my body between her and any approaching off leash dog) but I do sympathise, it was so nice to have a dog I could take to DOL meets for a while there. Now I just go dogless to some of the meets and pat everybody else's dogs. It's not fun having a reactive dog but you just have to find the methods that work best to reduce the likelihood of trouble without compromising the dog's quality of life. My girl simply is NEVER let off leash and only has occasional controlled on leash dog-dog socialisation with dogs that I judge to be outside her trigger range. Not the ideal dog life - no free running, but something that I had to commit to. I have a large yard so she gets her free running there. On the plus side it keeps me fit because I have to walk/jog with her.

I also sympathise with the feeling you get when you leave one dog at home and go to leave with the second dog, and you get the 'sad eyes'. My old boy tires about 15 steps from the car so I leave him at home and try not to look at him as Ella and I go out the front door.

Good luck, living with a reactive dog isn't as easy and carefree as a non reactive one, but with management, a little compromise and thinking outside the square can be equally rewarding, and the bond between you will be strong as you end up being the dog's main focus.

[hortfurball]

Also...

http://clickerleash.wordpress.com/2009/08/...-reactive-dogs/

[Nekhbet]

But if she associated outside/walks with pain would she be excited to go? Like when I pull out her lead she is visibly excited definitely not scared or worried. Or is what you are saying that over time the association has just moved onto dogs she sees whilst out walking/out of the house? Sorry I am just trying to make sense of what you are saying in my own terms.

you have to remember that when dogs are already in a heightened state, it doesnt just necessarily stay at that emotion the whole time. So for example she may be excited to see the leash through habit, you start your walk and she's extremely excited still. Then she sees another dog, she's sore and her excitement flicks over to her reactions you see now.

Dogs are fluid creatures, they have to be. Excitement when you want control is NOT a good thing. A jumpy, bouncy dog that just about drags you out of the door to go somewhere, fidgets and carries on when in the car is bound to aggress or be attacked itself by other dogs due to its rude behaviour. This is then how these things snowball, she has never learned to be calm, and hence the behaviour gets worst and worst.

I only say about the prong because it gives you control and if she does decide to lunge out to get another dog she will be corrected for it in a way that will not hurt her or pull you over. I find that many dogs remain calmer just having the prong collar on. It is not a solve all like any piece of equipment, you will still need methods to deal with it, but I find it wipes the floor with harnesses and head halters. Trick is to settle the dog using the collar and reward the hell out of it while the dog is in a calm state.

[louise1]

hello, I have a 21mth old desexed boy that has shown fear aggression since he arrived in our home at 14 weeks, I have exlpored many avenues to overcome his fear, clicker training with a Delta puppyschool,books, a Jan Fennell trainer, behaviouralist's another trainer and hours of pratice, we have made a great deal of progress but I have not been able to overcome his lunging and barking at other dogs, joggers pretty much anything that runs when we are walking, to the point I walk him when I know the streets and parks will be empty. Recently through talking with a trainer I had a light bulb moment that has lead me to beleive that he just does not feel safe with me and as I have seen him work with a trainer and he is a different dog and it's so upseting that I cannot achive the same level of trust that they can. He is a very smart boy and will allways test me and I feel I'm not experienced enough to pick up on these moments which then reinforces his defenceive behaviour. Through talking with someone who also had a fear aggressive dog and contacting the trainer they used and talking with them about our problems they suggested dog training and boarding so I've been checking out their site and so far it looks like they might have what I'm missing and I thought you might want to have a look as well, their videos are impressive and I'll aslo pay them a visit and maybe try and talk with some of their past clients, if your interested it's Alpha Boarding Kennels and you click on Boarding School for Dogs and that is where you will find the videos. If there is anyone who reads this and has used them or knows of them I'd love your feedback,they also have an interstate program, they are located in Victoria. I hope this helps us both, all the best, Lou

[Staranais]

I'd be wary sending any dog away for boarding & training unless I already knew the trainer really well. I've heard too many horror stories about what goes on behind closed doors with incompetent or harsh trainers. Nothing against the Alpha Boarding Kennels in particular, since I know nothing about them.

[Cosmolo]

M&mrc- if your dog already works well for trainers and not for you, what do you hope to achieve through boarding and training? While it is a great tool for some dogs and owners, it certainly isn't a cure all as dogs can quickly revert back to previous behaviours as a result of prior learning and owners different handling skills.

K&P, i would arrange some private training to help you with the issue. A front connecting harness may help you to manage her in the meantime.

[skip]

I lived on a property once and ended up having the property rottie adopting me. He wasn't well socialised (or at all) but due to being on a big property he did meet many different people and animals. It was just if I took him out to town etc.

I went to one of these boarding kennels/training places that was suposed to be OK. We had a one on one lesson and he was a pussycat with this American trainer in about 4 mins. I knew nothing about dogs besides my family lab and was amazed. I thought it was magic.

But there was no way I would leave him there for the required 2 weeks. Just would not trust them. And of course the problem would be the fact that his owners and me knew nothing about dog training as such. Any experienced dog person would be able to handle him at once.

So my opinion is one on one training by a reccommended trainer/behaviourist would be better. Good luck.