Seizures

[lilypily]

My girl has been having seizures They are happening about every 4-6 weeks. She will be absolutley fine and all of the sudden her back end and hind legs go on her. She can't walk and if she tries to she falls over to the left. Her eyes glaze over and she whines.

Last night she had another one and this time her front legs went on her too They last about 5min and then she is back to normal.

She had a Dental in December and had bloods done which came back clear. The vet said what she is experiencing is siezures, but that as she is older (8yrs) they are caused by something other than epilepsy. The vet thought perhaps a brain tumour and that if a brain tumour is the cause then the seizures will be become frequent.

Has anyone experienced this with a dog?

[Keira&Phoenix]

Hi Lillypilly,

No experience with this myself but I am so sorry for your and your poor puppy to be going through this.

Can the vet do a thorough check over do some test to see if its a tumour etc?? Maybe seek a 2nd opinion, it never hurts to have 2 different point of views.

[lilypily]

Hi Lillypilly,

No experience with this myself but I am so sorry for your and your poor puppy to be going through this.

Can the vet do a thorough check over do some test to see if its a tumour etc?? Maybe seek a 2nd opinion, it never hurts to have 2 different point of views.

MRI or CT will diagnose and a chest xray and abdo ultrasound will see if it has spread.

I don't know whether to just watch and wait and see if they become more frequent. If it is a tumor I won't put her through surgery or chemo i'll just provide palliative care

I'll give my vet a ring.

[White Shepherd mom]

I'm so sorry your dog is seizing lilipily, it's a horrible thing to watch, you feel so helpless. Did your vet mention putting her on any meds for epilepsy while he does his tests?

[lilypily]

I'm so sorry your dog is seizing lilipily, it's a horrible thing to watch, you feel so helpless. Did your vet mention putting her on any meds for epilepsy while he does his tests?

No. She was certain it is not epilepsy as she said dogs don't get epilepsy at 8yrs old. I just rang but she's not working until Friday.

If it a tumour the seizers will happen more frequently. I think it's a wait and watch situation. As I said I won't put her through surgery and chemo.

[shortstep]

So sorry to hear your news.

There are many reasons a dog can start to have seizures in their older years besides a brain tumor, and many of these causes can be treated.

Here are just a few from the web site listed below.

6.1 Hypoglycemia.

A dog with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) usually has seizures prior to feeding when their blood sugar or glucose levels are at a low level. The signs of hypoglycemia depend on 1) level of the blood glucose and 2) the rate the glucose level drops. Some of the causes of hypoglycemia are:

a pancreatic tumor that produces an insulin like substance

liver disease

cortisone deficiency

diabetic dogs that obtain an insulin overdose

Seizures are occasionally observed in hunting dogs during periods of excessive activity.

6.2 Hypocalcemia.

This is an endocrine disorder (affects electrolyte, calcium, magnesium, and phosphorous) that is characterized by low levels of calcium. Typically the acceptable range of calcium levels from the blood serum chemistry is in the range of 8.5 to 11.0 (mg/dl). Loss of appetite in a dog will cause the calcium levels to decrease which in turn may cause seizures. Some dogs may develop muscle weakness early in the disease. Another symptom of hypocalcemia is cataracts.

6.3 Hypoxia or Hypoxemia.

Hypoxia (Hypoxemia) is a condition of low blood oxygen levels that results in reduction in the capability of the red blood cells to carry oxygen. It may be the result of a disease of the lungs that prevents an adequate supply of oxygen getting to the brain thus causing seizures.

6.4 Hepatic Encephalopathy or Liver Disease.

Excess ammonia in the blood from liver disease may be a cause of seizures. Measurements of blood ammonia provides a truly reliable test to identify a dog with liver disease. According to the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Book of Dogs, "It is the only test that can determine whether clinical signs of central nervous system dysfunction can be attributed to liver disease (hepatic encephalopathy)". Of all the signs of liver disease, anorexia (reduced food intake) is the first to appear and it too is a sign of hepatic encephalopathy. Portasystemic Shunts also known as Portacaval Shunt(s) fall into this category. This is the abnormal communication between the portal vein (coming from the gastrointestinal tract) and the vein which carries blood back to the heart (known as the posterior vena cava). During fetal life, the communication is normally there but shortly after birth it may close off. When the communications fail to close properly, the vessels serve as shunts so that portal blood flow does not pass through the liver for processing or detoxification before being delivered to the rest of the body. Small breeds such as Yorkshire Terriers, Maltese and Miniature Schnauzers are commonly affected by this. The signs will usually appear before 1 year of age. Some of the signs are: depression, seizures, ataxia (incoordination), vomiting, polydipsia (excessive thirst) and retarded growth. Blood chemistry panel results are usually normal. The best way to diagnose this is by performing an ammonia tolerance test. Diagnosis can be confirmed by an X-ray. The condition can be alleviated with dietary management or partial surgical closure of the shunt. (UC Davis School of

Veterinary Medicine Book of Dogs provided the information for the above descripition.)

6.5 Renal (kidney)disease.

Kidney disease and kidney failure are two different conditions. The kidney fails when it is unable to perform its function of cleansing the blood of impurities. A kidney disease may hamper the kidneys from performing but it is still able to remove impurities from the blood. Uremia is a condition when there are high levels of urea nitrogen in the blood, other nitrogenous waste products in the blood, and the body pH falls below 7.0. The bodies buffering mechanisms that are under the control of the kidneys regulate the acidity in the blood and the body itself. High acidic levels of the body or acidosis may be the cause of seizures. The seizures are the result of the buildup of toxins (high nitrogen levels) in the blood. Uremia occurs at the terminal stages of kidney failure. It may also cause the body temperature to lower and may increase the respiratory rate. On page 270 of the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Book of Dogs, the authors state "Failure to initiate therapy in a timely manner will result in irreversible damage to kidney tissue and ultimately death". Part of a complete blood work-up is the chemistry analysis. Included in that are the blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and creatinine, the two most common tests used to evaluate kidney performance. The normal BUN range for an adult dog is 10 to 25 (MG/DL) with the average being 17.5. The range for the creatinine is 1.0 to 2.2 (MG/DL) with the average being 1.6.

6.6 Hyperkalemia

Hyperkalemia is the condition of a high concentration of potassium in the blood. Another term for this condition is Addison's disease. The heart rate of a dog suffering from hyperkalemia may be slower than normal. The condition may show itself as a generalized weakness in the dog and the condition becomes worse with exercise.

6.7 Hyperlipoproteinemia.

Dr. de Lahunta's text Veterinary Neuroanatomy and Clinical Neurology has a small paragraph on this disorder but we were unable to find this disorder as it is spelled or described in any of the other veterinary texts we own. He states that "defective lipid metabolism" causes this disorder. Lipids are classified as simple and complex. Simple lipids do not contain fatty acids. Complex lipids are essentially fatty acids and include glycerides, glycolipids, phospholipids, and waxes (ear wax). Lipids can combine with proteins to form lipoproteins. Apparently this disorder does not properly break down the fatty acids in the blood and the affected dog may have seizures. Dr. de Lahunta states that the Miniature Schnauzer is the most commonly affected dog. A high concentration of lipids (triglycerides) in the blood is known as hyperlipemia. Other clinical signs of hyperlipemia include dullness, poor appetite, and rapid loss of body condition.

6.8 Gastrointestinal disease ("garbage" poisoning).

Decaying and rotten garbage may be a breeding ground for staphylococcal and or botulism toxins. These may cause central nervous system stimulation, i.e., seizures.

6.9 Tick Bites.

We have discussed tick bites and two of their diseases - Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and Lyme Disease earlier.

6.10 Toxoplamosis (Toxo)

The information that we obtained on Toxo comes by way of the internet. Toxo is a disease caused by a germ (protozan parasite - Toxoplasma gondii) and the most likely places of contact are cat feces, raw meet and uncooked vegetables. Approximately half of the people in the U.S. have the Toxo parasite, but the disease is dormant. This parasite is similar to giardia in that once a dog has giardia, it is dormant and may flare up at any time to affect the dog. Toxo has many symptoms and included in these are muscle spasms and seizures (neurologic difficulties). The symptoms worsen and the patient may go into a coma if the disease is not treated properly. The 2 most common drugs used in the treatment of Toxo are the combination of sulfadiazine and pyrimethamine. Depending on the dog's reaction to these drugs, other drugs may be substituted - clindamycin, dapsone, or doxycycline. In the winter of 1994 and 1995, Victoria B.C. experienced the world's largest outbreak of Toxo ever reported.

back to the top

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Why.html

[aussielover]

I'm sorry to hear about your girl. I lost my dog in feb last year to a neuro condition

I would get the MRI done if you can afford it.

Then you can at least rule out a tumour and go from there. If it is a tumour, then as you said, you can just make the most of your time together.

[lilypily]

Thanks for all the info shortstep That's why the vet did the bloods, to rule out other causes.

Aussielover It's horrible when you lose them.

I pray they don't get more frequent.

[Alibi]

My little silky had a brain tumour last year which started off with seizures. She was put on cortasone to help with the inflamation of the tumour and a anti seizure medication, i decided to go with palative care as chemo wasnt an option as she was 15yrs and i just wanted her to have quality of life with the time she had left.

She definaltey had quality of life till the end, she was a happy monkey then next minute had a turn, the vet said the tumour must have started to press on the brain as they couldnt stop it, so it wasnt a seizure. That when she got her wings.

Hugs to you during this hard time.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Maybe you can speak to your vet about getting anti seizure drugs, it must be painful and scary for her to go through those seizures, it might be best to try and stop them and get an MRI done to confirm a diagnosis.

[~Anne~]

Keira&Phoneix - seizures are generally not painful. ANti-seizure meds may also cover up what is causing the seizures.

Lilipily, as shortstep's post confirms, seizures can be cause by a number of reasons - disease, cancers, toxins (even heavy worm burdens!) and then there is epilepsy. ALl you can do is worj with your vet to determine the cause of them and then try to treat the condition that is causing them.

[snow_wolf]

Hypoxia (Hypoxemia) is a condition of low blood oxygen levels that results in reduction in the capability of the red blood cells to carry oxygen. It may be the result of a disease of the lungs that prevents an adequate supply of oxygen getting to the brain thus causing seizures.

I dont think it would be hypoxia. You would notice a massive change in the dogs mental state all the time. Loss of co-ordination, and awareness.

Edited February 15, 2011 by snow_wolf

[gwenneth1]

My girl has been having seizures They are happening about every 4-6 weeks. She will be absolutley fine and all of the sudden her back end and hind legs go on her. She can't walk and if she tries to she falls over to the left. Her eyes glaze over and she whines.

Last night she had another one and this time her front legs went on her too They last about 5min and then she is back to normal.

She had a Dental in December and had bloods done which came back clear. The vet said what she is experiencing is siezures, but that as she is older (8yrs) they are caused by something other than epilepsy. The vet thought perhaps a brain tumour :D and that if a brain tumour is the cause then the seizures will be become frequent.

Has anyone experienced this with a dog?

Yes, It was a previously undiagnosed lesion/tumour in my old girl's case. With her they became more severe and more frequent starting off as barely noticeable changes until they she started experiencing grand mal seizures, arched back, snapping at air and losing control of her bladder as well. The the last one she had, I was with her from ten minutes prior to her having it and it was her third grand mal, she bit her tongue badly and I decided it was enough for her. On the way to the Vet for her final journey, she couldn't move much, but she was very alert and very calm, her breathing was good. She was more interested in her late night car trip with her head on my lap. I kept it together very well, because I didn't want her to pick up I was distressed,I talked to her on the way there and she licked my fingers, but I knew for her sake, she would only be coming home to be buried. The Vet laid out the options and made it clear the prognosis was all down hill, but he had to tell me the other options were to sedate her, admit her and start her on meds and see if she regained full mobility, which was a distinct possibility. The thought of my darling spending a night away from her home and then making the decision to say goodbye in the morning was not an option because I was not going to let her go through one more seizure , so we all talked cheerily and cooed to her , like we usually do and it was over. Then we all cried.

I have absolutely no regret in not letting her go through another debilitating fit whatsoever.

I am sorry if I sound a tad clinical, but if it is a lesion and progressive in your dog's situation, I would say don't let her go through that, because it physically takes its toll on the dog , prior to the grand mal fits, she was agitated and frightened. Afterwards, she was physically exhausted. It is very emotionally distressing.

Edited February 15, 2011 by gwenneth1

[Tim'sMum]

No. She was certain it is not epilepsy as she said dogs don't get epilepsy at 8yrs old. I just rang but she's not working until Friday.

If it a tumour the seizers will happen more frequently. I think it's a wait and watch situation. As I said I won't put her through surgery and chemo.

Not necessarily true lilypily....seizures/epilepsy can start and stop in mammals at any age or stage of life. Most often they are ideopathic...which means there is no known cause.

Your vet should not be so certain that it is a brain tumour due to your dogs age. Apart from other metabolic disorders (which should be investigated), it may still be epilepsy.

Seizures tend to be more common in older people/dogs due to brain degeneration, or in young dogs/children because they just have a low seizure threshhold or have some sort of brain anomaly.

You do have to rule out other causes of seizures though...as per shortsteps informative post. It may be a tumour, it might not be.

Whatever the cause there is probably no reason why an anti-convulsant will not be worth trying at least. Humans with brain tumours are given anti-convulsant medication...so why can't dogs?

MRI's can be very expensive, so if you can afford it, go for a CAT scan initially. A CAT scan will pick up a tumour...if that is what is causing the seizures, as it will most likely be large enough to be picked up by the CAT scan. MRI's give a much finer and more comprehensive picture of the brain. It is normal with humans that a CAT scan is taken first, then if nothing shows up...and MRI is the next step.

Do the seizures happen when your dog has just woken up or is excited?

Epilepsy is little understood by many medical professionals and that includes vets. It is a condition that can be incredibly varied and complex, it can have a specific reason or no known reason at all. Often, if there is no known cause all you can do is use medication to try to control seizures. This may be totally successful, mildly successful or not work much at all.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Tim'sMum

[~Anne~]

TM - it isn't common for a dog to develop epilepsy in their later years. The most common age for it to develop is between 18 months - 4 years. For a dog to suddenly start to have seizures at 8 years of age would very likely suggest something else.

I have never yet heard of a dog being diagnoised with the onset of epilepsy at that age.

Whatever the cause there is probably no reason why an anti-convulsant will not be worth trying at least. Humans with brain tumours are given anti-convulsant medication...so why can't dogs?

There is nothing worng with being given anti-counvulsants when you knwo what is causing the the seizures. If the seizures, for example, are caused by toxins then giving it anti-seizure meds will do nothing and may prevent or delay accurate diagnoses.

Edited February 15, 2011 by ~Anne~

[lilypily]

My girl has been having seizures They are happening about every 4-6 weeks. She will be absolutley fine and all of the sudden her back end and hind legs go on her. She can't walk and if she tries to she falls over to the left. Her eyes glaze over and she whines.

Last night she had another one and this time her front legs went on her too They last about 5min and then she is back to normal.

She had a Dental in December and had bloods done which came back clear. The vet said what she is experiencing is siezures, but that as she is older (8yrs) they are caused by something other than epilepsy. The vet thought perhaps a brain tumour and that if a brain tumour is the cause then the seizures will be become frequent.

Has anyone experienced this with a dog?

Yes, It was a previously undiagnosed lesion/tumour in my old girl's case. With her they became more severe and more frequent starting off as barely noticeable changes until they she started experiencing grand mal seizures, arched back, snapping at air and losing control of her bladder as well. The the last one she had, I was with her from ten minutes prior to her having it and it was her third grand mal, she bit her tongue badly and I decided it was enough for her. On the way to the Vet for her final journey, she couldn't move much, but she was very alert and very calm, her breathing was good. She was more interested in her late night car trip with her head on my lap. I kept it together very well, because I didn't want her to pick up I was distressed,I talked to her on the way there and she licked my fingers, but I knew for her sake, she would only be coming home to be buried. The Vet laid out the options and made it clear the prognosis was all down hill, but he had to tell me the other options were to sedate her, admit her and start her on meds and see if she regained full mobility, which was a distinct possibility. The thought of my darling spending a night away from her home and then making the decision to say goodbye in the morning was not an option because I was not going to let her go through one more seizure , so we all talked cheerily and cooed to her , like we usually do and it was over. Then we all cried.

I have absolutely no regret in not letting her go through another debilitating fit whatsoever.

I am sorry if I sound a tad clinical, but if it is a lesion and progressive in your dog's situation, I would say don't let her go through that, because it physically takes its toll on the dog , prior to the grand mal fits, she was agitated and frightened. Afterwards, she was physically exhausted. It is very emotionally distressing.

Oh i'm so sorry gwenneth, so heart breaking :D

*IF* it is a tumour I won't put her through anything. As I said I wouldn't go down the path of surgery or chemo. She is such a sensitive litle girl, it's enough for a fly to land on her and she can yelp She had Metacam for a week with her recent dental.

I'll get in touch with my vet on Friday. As I said I think it might be a watch and wait situation.

[lilypily]

Do the seizures happen when your dog has just woken up or is excited?

No. They happen out of the blue, ussually when she is relaxing. The other night was the worst one. She was panting throughout and ussually she comes good instantly. This one it took her a bit longer to come good (took longer for her to regain full use of her legs, she was wobbly for longer)

As i'v said her bloods were all clear and my vet said *IF* it's a tumour it will present itself as the seizures will become more frequent. This started around 6-8months ago and it's been a regular 4-6 weekly episode.

If it's not a tumour............well I don't know? The vet only talked about the possibility of tumour.

[k9angel]

Sorry to hear Lilypily.

It's scary & heartbreaking having to see them go through seizures.

My old Girl Gypz, had a similiar thing happen a several mths ago. I could tell when she was going to go down, she would have a certain look on her face. Her legs would slowly give way on her and she'd sit looking stunned on the floor for a moment or two before getting up and being ok again. It only happened a few times but was very scary. She is 11.

Then there is Whitey.

He is a husky also, he is 5, going on 6 and since being diagnosed with Immune mediated thrombocytopenia, in Sept last year - has had his fair share of seizures. Thankfully he has been seizure free just over a month now.

Goodluck with your girl.

[Rappie]

No. They happen out of the blue, ussually when she is relaxing. The other night was the worst one. She was panting throughout and ussually she comes good instantly. This one it took her a bit longer to come good (took longer for her to regain full use of her legs, she was wobbly for longer)

As i'v said her bloods were all clear and my vet said *IF* it's a tumour it will present itself as the seizures will become more frequent. This started around 6-8months ago and it's been a regular 4-6 weekly episode.

If it's not a tumour............well I don't know? The vet only talked about the possibility of tumour.

The chance of seizures being due to a problem in the brain increase with the age of the patient. If they are occurring at a frequency of 4-6 weeks, then this is the point that I would either consider starting medication to prevent seizures or continue with further investigation in an attempt to find a specific cause for the seizures.

The most common result from running blood tests in seizuring patients is that all the values are normal, which gives us more of an indication that the problem is not related to the function of the rest of the body. Sometimes we certainly do find a cause on the blood works, and it is the simplest starting point for investigation. Imaging of the brain is the best way to find a tumour or lesion, either through MRI or CT. Beyond this, there may be specific further testing for other problems like metal toxicity, or parasitic disease indicated but unfortunately there is no general screening test for the weird causes. In Sydney we have a wonderful neurologist who is always happy to take referral consults for second opinions - it's a good way to get reassurance even if nothing further is done.

If no further investigation is to be done, and the seizures are increasing in frequency or severity then it is reasonable consider medication anyway so long as you are aware of the possibilities that you might NOT be treating. Sometimes we're not able to do everything and the options of treating vs not treating become a balance of risk. I'd suggest a good chat with your vet to develop a plan.

[lilypily]

Thanks Rappie, very much appreciated