corvus Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 As per topic title, what do you define as "problem behaviour"? What behaviours will you try to change and what behaviours do you deem just part of your dog's personality or something that is best dealt with through management? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) A behaviour that has or can affect a person's* health or safety - jumping up, HA, roaming the streets and roads A behaviour that has or will affect the dog's quality of life, health or safety - fence jumping, getting in the face of strange dogs, eating the carpet A behaviour that annoys me, the fix for which will not negatively affect the dog's quality of life, health or safety - eg, pulling on lead, chewing but not eating household posessions, whining There are things I allow that others would not, and things I don't allow that others would. Sorry, forgot second part of question. Training or management depends a great deal on each individual's resources in time, skill, money, energy and emotional competence. For me it's a kind of risk assessment based on the likelihood of the behaviour occurring and the consequences. I will rely purely on training for whining, my irritation is no big deal if the training fails. For roaming tho', I rely on 6 foot cyclone mesh fences, not training. *dogs and other animals also fall into this category with DA and stock chasing I think. Edited February 14, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 As per topic title, what do you define as "problem behaviour"? What behaviours will you try to change and what behaviours do you deem just part of your dog's personality or something that is best dealt with through management? well, in my opinion, any behaviour an owner is not happy with, is a problem because it results in stress for the owner and negative or reduced interaction with the dog. There are varying degrees of "problems" and the severity will depend on the owners situation. My dog is indifferent to being patted/interacted with anyone other than myself (or the main handler). This is actually an asset for guide dog work, but probably a big drawback for any type of therapy work. At the moment, it is not something I am going to try to change. I would like to do pets as therapy work in the future though and if she fails and i get to keep her, then I might consider trying to get her to enjoy being patted more (or get a second, more friendly dog lol). Any behaviour which poses a serious risk to other people or the dog itself (aggression, running away, chasing, jumping etc) should be dealt with immediately and something that should not be allowed in ANY dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wolf Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Anything i find to be aggressive, or unsafe. Or any destructive behaviours. Also anything i dont particularly like the dog doing, within reason. Im not the fun police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 For me, problem behaviours would be most types of aggressive or anxious behaviours. Behaviours that showed that the dog was not at ease in my home. Escaping, extreme resource guarding, extreme destruction, ect. If a dog I already owned displayed changes I would try to fix the problem and manage it. I plan to buy adult dogs as pets in future, and so I will be making sure I only ever get a dog that had been properly tested (by myself or somebody I trust), and will not take home a dog with those problems. The behaviours I would not accept are ones that really can't be trained out of a dog. Some dogs are beyond help. Personally I would accept a dog of higher prey drive than I would be happy to see in the home of the average pet owner. I would accept any naughty behaviour not associated with aggression or anxiety, because training can easily fix it, and if it doesn't get fixed or managed then I'm the one who is going to look bad, not the dog. I have a lot of faith in good behaviour testing to identify likely problems. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Greytmate, just out of interest, what kind of behaviour testing do you have faith in? Good answers, everyone. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Greytmate, just out of interest, what kind of behaviour testing do you have faith in? Good answers, everyone. ;) Tests that put dogs in situations where their tolerance will be tested, and where they are exposed to potential triggers, and observing body language to gauge the dog's feeling and emotional state. It has been proven that some tests do give likely indicators of long-term adoption success, but there are only a handful of studies done, and as you know, research of this nature is very difficult to do, and has to reduce a world of dog behaviour to one single conclusion that only leads to more questions. But from my own experiences I can say that when you get a nervous or aggressive response in a good test, it is likely that the dog will be nervous or aggressive when it has its tolerance tested in future situations in somebody's home. Working closely over time with so many dogs of similar breeding, age and of known upbringing (registered pedigree racing dogs), makes you really take notice of the ways that 'less than ideal' genetics and environment can shape a dog. To be positive, I will give examples of undesirable behaviours I believe can be modified successfully into desirable behaviours. Jumping up on people or things, mild excitability, licking people on the face, stealing food, moving objects around the place, sleeping on the bed, blocking the TV, very mild signs of resource guarding. Testing can help match dogs into homes where the owners have the skills and assertiveness levels to handle that dog. People have to be honest about their own capability to manage dogs, because not all dogs can be managed by all people. I just wanted to add that I manage my own dogs to prevent aggression or anxiety problems as much as I can, even though my dogs are fine. I feed in separate runs, I give my dogs secure places to be in, and I have a very secure yard. Sometimes people inadvertently mismanage a dog by exposing it repeatedly to things that will lower its tolerance, and that can start problems or bad habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 I've been chatting to a few people about behavioural assessments lately. A friend is just finishing a PhD on this topic in shelter dogs. I found it alarming how little was known about the predictive abilities of these tests. I looked into it and the literature really is pretty scarce. Even the studies that have been done sometimes seem restricted by what methods and timeframes were possible. I really feel for the people that have to make decisions about a dog's future based on a behavioural assessment. I guess they mostly have a lot of faith in the tests, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I've been chatting to a few people about behavioural assessments lately. A friend is just finishing a PhD on this topic in shelter dogs. I found it alarming how little was known about the predictive abilities of these tests. I looked into it and the literature really is pretty scarce. Even the studies that have been done sometimes seem restricted by what methods and timeframes were possible. I really feel for the people that have to make decisions about a dog's future based on a behavioural assessment. I guess they mostly have a lot of faith in the tests, though. "How little was known". Yes that would be how little is officially known, and how little can be explained properly. However after doing tests for years, modifying the way I did the tests as I understood the subject better, and having to sell the dogs afterwards, I learned heaps. I chose to introduce temperament testing. I chose what went into the test and what was not in the test, based on a combination of what I knew and what fitted in with the latest official knowledge and advice I learned from from veterinary and other behaviourists. I had to explain myself and get approval for what I was doing from highly qualified people in order to demonstrate our testing had integrity. I feel for people silly enough to sell dogs without any sort of quality control. But mostly I feel for the families and the dogs that are sadly mismatched as a result of a refusal or inability to assess (breeding stock or rehomed dogs) properly. At it's most basic level, a test (controlled situation) can show that a dog would try to take another dog's head off in an attack of pure predation. It can show another dog exhibits a different behaviour. It can show this even there are no studies to prove that it can. Surely a person wouldn't want to discover the information about their dog much later in their own home with their new pet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Some behavioural testing is certainly better than none. I don't doubt that in the hands of an experienced person, behavioural tests can be extremely useful and effective. To me the concern is that it's going to work better for some people than for others. People I have met that do behaviour testing are incredibly experienced and savvy. Even years down the track they are still making a lot of gut decisions. Doesn't mean they are wrong decisions, but I get the sense it is hard on them sometimes if they don't really know what they are responding to and why. And how do they pass those skills on? How do other people judge whether someone is going to be good at behavioural assessments? What if they don't have a choice and just have to use who they have got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Gut decisions are actually sub-conscious decisions made by the brain. The skill is to be able to use your senses and brain to consciously recognise the signals and articulate that. There is a lot of info around on the signals that we can learn. It takes practice to do this well. Then it is as easy to work out which dog is really aggressive as it is to work out which dog is really fluffy. If anyone wanted me to prove and articulate everything I know in an effective way so that my knowledge is passed on, it will cost a few hundred thousand dollars over four or five years. I can then deliver what you ask. Or are you happy to just listen to me randomly add 20cents worth of info here on DOL? The resources are just not there to fund the necessary academic research. I would say the bottom line for knowing whether somebody is going to be good at behaviour assessments is to have that person assessed by a veterinary behaviourist to ensure that they have the skills to see and record every minute signal coming from the dog. The current good tests are written in a way that removes the need to interpret the results from the person conducting the tests. They are only required to observe signals and document that. The tests themselves should be approved or devised by veterinary behaviourists. Dogs cannot tell us how they feel, but they never lie. It is a separate skill to interpret dog language than it is to make decisions about what it all means. That is why it is quite feasible to train volunteers with no formal qualifications to do behaviour assessments. The buck stops with the management of an organisations as to whether they run proper testing, or whether they choose dogs by other means. The resources are available to help small groups do this very economically, and in my opinion they are negligent if they do not do it properly. These dogs are being placed as pets and organisations selling pets are obliged to make sure their product meets that purpose and does what they can to ensure the product is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Would I be able to PM you, Greytmate? This is kinda turning into a two person conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I hope others do come along and give their views here, give it a bit more time. This topic comes up in the Rescue forum a lot, but I think it is more valuable to me to hear about what pet owners regard as problem or not a problem, not just what rescuers or trainers think are problems. They are not always the same thing. People can join in our conversation if they like or they can go to back to the first question and simply tell us what behaviours they think are problem behaviours and whether they think they would be able to train the dog out of it or have to just put up with it. Or do they do things to prevent problems? It is good to be able to discuss dog behaviour as it is, without the bias towards modification that is found in the training forum or the emotional distress of discussing in a rescue context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) What bothers one person may not bother another. I am not bothered by a bit of counter surfing or occasionally jumping up, but it would bother other people. I know it's part of this or that dogs personality and I could train it away if I needed to, it just doesn't bother me enough to put in the effort. Same with the occasional zoomies through the house and jumping over the furniture. It just makes me laugh. In the same way, I live with independent breeds that occasionally don't respond to a command as quickly as others might expect, and I know I can't walk them safely off-lead alongside a road or leave a door open and expect them not to go for a walk. Not that I would anyway, but some people expect to be able to. I just manage around it. But excessive barking would become a problem for me very quickly, I have no tolerance at all for that. Aggression towards people unless in a protective role, or unprovoked attacks on other dogs with intent to do harm, is unacceptable. So is aggressive resource guarding. No arguing amongst the family dogs, and no hurting the cat. They are deal breakers and I could not keep a dog that didn't get along with the household. But I have had a shy dog in the past and although I felt sorry for her, she still managed to have a good life and be a good companion. We trained and managed to reduce her stress. Problems toilet training would count as problem behaviour, but I could train through it. Same with chewing up or just stealing human belongings and walking well on lead. I expect to have to train for those things. Chasing chickens or wildlfe is a management issue - we don't encounter them often enough to train it away. Edited to add: separation anxiety, or a 'velcro dog' that needed to be physically touching me all the time, would also be majorly problematic for me. Edited February 15, 2011 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 For myself, I think SSM summed up pretty well how I feel about it. My main concern in my dogs' behaviour is everyone's safety and wellbeing. For safety I don't rely on training but would prefer to rely on management. I want to change any behaviour that indicates my dog is not entirely happy. I would tend to classify a lot of things as training problems rather than behavioural problems. An interesting conundrum for me is stereotypies. Erik has a few behaviours that are a touch compulsive. I know that it's coping behaviour and indicates that all is not right in his world. But I also know it probably makes him feel better. If Kivi were doing the same things I would be a lot more concerned. Kivi's temperament is much more passive and flexible than Erik's. Erik feels compelled to act long before Kivi does. So I view Erik's stereotypies as a flag that he's feeling ever so slightly conflicted or unsure. I do what I can to alleviate it, but have also accepted that sometimes it's not necessary for me to do something about it. The line between good coping behaviour and bad coping behaviour is a bit fuzzy to me. It's appropriate that he be allowed to poke things when I've asked him to do something difficult, but if he's walking around aimlessly poking things, I figure he needs more stimulation. He definitely does it much less if he's had plenty of exercise and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Safety and well being are obviously paramount, but I also wouldn't want to live with a dog that wasn't a good match for me, or me for them. They'd just add stress not joy and I'd find their behaviour a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) I really think it depends on the owner in a lot of instances. For me, pulling on a leash, not coming when called, hassling me for attention among other things are all behaviours that would annoy the crap out of me and are things I could simply not live with (or if I did, I could not live with them for long). Some people don't care if their dog pulls on the leash (for example) so that's not a problem for them. Edited February 15, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow_wolf Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Speaking of problem behaviour. Breeze, is an absolute nuisance sometimes. She just loves attention so damn much, she'll do anything to get it. Very intelligent, but sometimes she can get right on my nerve!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfthewords Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Horses for courses as they say... Personally, I cannot stand the velcro dogs who must literally be touching you all the time. My friend's dog is under you when you go to sit, constantly pushing his head under your arm/hand/foot for a pat. It drives me up the wall. My dogs know to give me my space, and I invite them into it regularly for pats. They also like their own space! I don't allow my dogs to pull on the leash, jump up without being asked, beg for food (unless people are over and we do Carl's party tricks ), take toys or food off each other, whinging, etc. It helps they never did any of that in the first place. :D I am a bit torn on the issue of aggression, since I own an extremely fear-aggressive (HA only, LOVES dogs), shy dog. He is 100% normal with me (and about 5 other people--after extensive training sessions involving them and exposure) so I know he is not insecure, but he does not trust anyone as he has clearly been very badly abused physically in his previous life. Every day is an uphill struggle for me to manage him, since I tend not to walk him at a time of day when there will be kids around and it puts a serious limitation on the things we do. I have had him 3 years and he is 70% better, but I still have to be very, very careful not to set him up for failure. He is muzzled most of the time when we have guests over just in case one of them doesn't ignore him as I tell them to and tries to pat him...that's when we run into trouble. I would probably take on a HA or DA small breed. Mischa was dog aggressive but I have corrected it since using positive reinforcement and some of Cesar Millan's methods. It's just easier to manage in a small dog, not that it ever excuses the behaviour. I find HA dogs easier to work with than DA ones, so a dog up to the size of a Lab would be manageable for me and my experience with aggression. I do enjoy the challenge of a dog who is not a 'good' canine citizen. If the dog has killed another dog or seriously bitten someone (i.e. mauled, not a defensive bite), then I would probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 But is something you couldn't live with but can easily enough train out of a dog really a problem behaviour? I don't tend to call something a problem until I've tried to fix it and didn't have much success! I used to think my dogs sometimes pulled on leash until I tried walking some dogs that didn't know how to walk on a loose leash and discovered that I just have a really low tolerance for pressure. To me a dog pulling on a leash is not a behavioural problem unless it's chronic and several unsuccessful attempts have been made to change the behaviour. What about possible temperament issues, like nervousness or lacking an off switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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