RottnBullies Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Well that's just sad So what happened In the last 20yrs or so :D How does a once bred working dog become not worthy so to speak anymore Just curious Is It just here or o/seas as well You want a good working dog? don't get a dobermann. ETA: By not worthy I mean their working capabilities Edited February 13, 2011 by RottnBullies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Well that's just sad So what happened In the last 20yrs or so :D How does a once bred working dog become not worthy so to speak anymore Just curious Is It just here or o/seas as well You want a good working dog? don't get a dobermann. ETA: By not worthy I mean their working capabilities By folks not prioritising working ability (nerve, drive) in the breeding, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erinonthefarm Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have a show line Dobe so can't comment on good working lines really, just wondering why in so many working breeds of dogs the ANKC standard (which show lines breed for) doesn't include or prioritise working ability- shouldn't their beauty be in their suitability for what the breed was designed for? I am so suprised that Dobes aren't considered good working dogs, what the hell are they for then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 the breed has been fiddled with too much over the years. Other breeds do a better job and hence the dobermann got left behind. Shame because they are such a fabulous breed, but I wouldn't bother going to it when there's breeds like Malinois' around. Not to say you cant get a dobe that will fit the bill, but its more difficult and there's less choice around compared to other working breeds. just wondering why in so many working breeds of dogs the ANKC standard (which show lines breed for) doesn't include or prioritise working ability- shouldn't their beauty be in their suitability for what the breed was designed for? The ANKC wont accept dogs doing bitework, schutzhund, ringsport etc. There is no requirement for the dogs to do anything but have papers and a pulse, hence dogs end up moving away from their original purpose in a lot of cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) I can’t say for certain what has lead to the demise of the Dobermann as a suitable working dog but in Australia alone there have been some serious contributing factors. The dobe is no longer used by Corrections, Police or the RAAF/Military as a service dog. The banning of docking tails and cropping ears. The rise in popularity of the Belgian Malinois and Dutch Shepherd have all been factors working against the Dobermann. I remember Dobermanns as being a very serious working dog with high levels of fight drive and being truly dominant, with the passing of Dobermanns in being used for law enforcement Dobermanns were then primarily bred for and trained in Schutzhund. Dobermanns were then being bred to conform to Schutzhund standards which mean breeding dogs with higher levels of prey drive and overall less fight drive for ease of trainability. I remember when agitating the Dobermann of old they would actively seek to engage the decoy and once on the bite they would try to fight through the decoy and wrap their legs around you. You can briefly see this being done in the video below. This is a Dobermann trait in which any experienced decoy of dobes will be able to confirm and tell you about. This Dobe has been bred and trained for Schutzhund so would have been discouraged from wrapping its legs around the decoy but still attempts to do this when on the bite. The majority of Dobermanns that I have tested recently are not able to handle being worked in new environments and they move towards avoidance when pressure is applied. This has made them unsuitable for work as personal protection dogs. Having said that I have tested a couple of Dobes bred by Von Forell which have done well. Just curious Is It just here or o/seas as well Overseas as well. They are not considered a breed of choice for Schutzhund competitors or personal protection dog handlers, Edited February 13, 2011 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Both of my bitches wrap the legs around whoever has the tug toy. The young one a lot more. Yet they are not tough dogs at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Both of my bitches wrap the legs around whoever has the tug toy. The young one a lot more.Yet they are not tough dogs at all. I did not mean for that to be the sole indicator of a good working/tough Dobermann. ;) but it was something I noticed when pressure was applied the Dobermann of old would take the fight to the decoy by wrapping there legs around the decoy fighting through the bite. Seemed to be a trait that I have not seen in Dobermanns I have tested with pressure applied in quite sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottnBullies Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Thanks for that Jeff What a waste really, don't get me wrong I love looking at a well bred Dobe, but I much prefer looking at a great working one In action. I hope some breeders out there are still trying to maintain the working lines and hopefully one day restore them back to their former glory ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Thanks for that JeffWhat a waste really, don't get me wrong I love looking at a well bred Dobe, but I much prefer looking at a great working one In action. I hope some breeders out there are still trying to maintain the working lines and hopefully one day restore them back to their former glory ;) Totally agree with you RottnBullies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doberwatch Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 As to the other working line kennels - I am yet to see any of their dogs be titled in anything........ Have any of the Aussie dobe kennels produced dogs that are being used as service dogs in any capacity (police, SAR, security), Monika? Just curious. I know that Vonhellas, Vonliston also own/operate security companies and pretty sure they utilise some of their dogs for patrol purposes. Not 100% though. These kennels as well as Von Forrell and Vonchienloup all import full security/working lines from Europe with the goal to improve working ability in Australia. Serious lines such as Briskas, Mooreiche, Weyermuhle, Vom Ferrenberg just to name a few. They don't just look for SCH/IPO titles either. I remember Tony of Von Liston telling me some time ago that security lines are different to IPO lines in working ability?? If these old working lines are being imported and bred from, i can't see why the breed can't be successful on the field and in service work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erinonthefarm Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Well i'm sure other breeds have been down this road, maybe if more people were interested in the working Dobe, it's abilities can be improved. Like Rottnbullies, I hope someone can resurect it's capabilities. Sorry not to highjack Doberwatch, but how different is Schutzhund to a police/ defence dog training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 schutzhund, technically, is a controlled situation. Condition a dog long enough and have enough skill, you can make a fairly average dog get a Sch/IPO title. Schutzhund dogs bite a sleeve which they see as a prey toy reward, PP/Security dogs should throw the slipped sleeve and actively re-engage the decoy which is their primary target - they will also bite any limb on the body or wherever they can (shoulders accepted LOL ever seen a decoy piggybacking a Malinois doing a shoulder bite?) Threaten some Schutzhund dogs and be serious about it, it has a chance of pissing itself and dragging its owner away. Then there are some Sch dogs that are just all round awesome and would have no hesitation in tearing you a new one if you tried to attack it. Unfortunately you cannot always tell the difference simply from the Sch title which is not a guarentee of civil qualities in the dog. Schutzhund is an indicator of prospective working ability, not that the dog has it. It is better to test dogs yourself or see them work in the discipline you want before purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Both of my bitches wrap the legs around whoever has the tug toy. The young one a lot more.Yet they are not tough dogs at all. My dobe does the same thing and when they have their dew claws this is not a fun experience. We tell him again and again no paws but when he gets worked up well we have to stop the game completely. I don't know if I'd call him a tough dog or not, he's not aggressive but he has never submitted to a dog or to a human other than myself or my partner. He ignores almost everything and everyone who tries to challenge him unless they won't let him and then he gets ready to fight. I imagine he would love it if I started protection training but I don't have the time to do that properly. But I should add he's not pure and I got him from a lady who visits these forums and wanted dogs that conformed more to the traditional dobe temperament standards. She'd had 20-30 years experience with them and was completely aligned with what I wanted. I went to see several breeders and though plenty had beautiful dogs but they weren't what I'd imagined when I chose the Doberman breed from Internet searches. He is a very complimented dog and I think he's perfect, but I love watching YouTube videos of American and European working dobes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapua Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 The ANKC wont accept dogs doing bitework, schutzhund, ringsport etc. There is no requirement for the dogs to do anything but have papers and a pulse, hence dogs end up moving away from their original purpose in a lot of cases. Very true - but I think like most training with dogs the training tends to be reduced to the lowest common denominator - and thats often the skill of the handler not the dog necessarily. With regard to breeder selection I consider the understanding of Early Neurological Stimulation is also a major factor in selection of a service dog- as well as the working ability of the sire and dam IMHO. Whether early neurological stimulation occured or not and the enriched environment prior to the pup going to their new home/handler. I currently breed with service dogs in mind (Labradors) in past I have bred & trained to 12 months old GSD's and Kelpies which went to Europe as SAR dogs (Kelpies) and NSW Police (GSD). I no longer have the physical ability to train as well as I like due to bone cancer so I prioritise the ENT in my breeding program. I still believe the breeders who have proven working lines and also have an understanding of the value of Early Neurological Stimuation should be sought out and prioritised as a selection a critera for a service dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erinonthefarm Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 schutzhund, technically, is a controlled situation. Condition a dog long enough and have enough skill, you can make a fairly average dog get a Sch/IPO title. Schutzhund dogs bite a sleeve which they see as a prey toy reward, PP/Security dogs should throw the slipped sleeve and actively re-engage the decoy which is their primary target - they will also bite any limb on the body or wherever they can (shoulders accepted LOL ever seen a decoy piggybacking a Malinois doing a shoulder bite?)Threaten some Schutzhund dogs and be serious about it, it has a chance of pissing itself and dragging its owner away. Then there are some Sch dogs that are just all round awesome and would have no hesitation in tearing you a new one if you tried to attack it. Unfortunately you cannot always tell the difference simply from the Sch title which is not a guarentee of civil qualities in the dog. Schutzhund is an indicator of prospective working ability, not that the dog has it. It is better to test dogs yourself or see them work in the discipline you want before purchase. Yep, gotcha, we are training for tracking (although we won't be trialling due to isolation ATM), very similar situation where tracking trials are quite different to the real life situations, most dogs even with inexperienced handlers like me lol, could track for tracking trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Both of my bitches wrap the legs around whoever has the tug toy. The young one a lot more.Yet they are not tough dogs at all. I did not mean for that to be the sole indicator of a good working/tough Dobermann. I will from now on but it was something I noticed when pressure was applied the Dobermann of old would take the fight to the decoy by wrapping there legs around the decoy fighting through the bite. Seemed to be a trait that I have not seen in Dobermanns I have tested with pressure applied in quite sometime. How very strange that my "pathetic" show dogs do it and the working ones dont. I wonder why. I would love for ONE puppy buyer to come to me and say - I want to compete in something with the dog, Im yet to find one like that...... everyone wants a pet, not interested in any dog sports AT ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 If these old working lines are being imported and bred from, i can't see why the breed can't be successful on the field and in service work. Neither can I, but where are these dobes going? In your opening post you listed 12 working line breeders, the average litter size for dobes is 8 pups? so say these breeders have one litter every 2 years(which is false the actual number would be higher) that is still 96 working line pups, where are these pups going? it certainly isn't to competitive Schutzhund handlers or Security Dog Handlers in NSW. The last time I seen a large number of working dobes in NSW was around 2002 when I was invited out to a kennels (which is now owned by a doler) for a training weekend, from memory there were 10 Dobermanns. The only dobe on the day that impressed me was a red bitch which I ended up owning (I later re homed the dog to someone who required a personal protection dog). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Both of my bitches wrap the legs around whoever has the tug toy. The young one a lot more.Yet they are not tough dogs at all. I did not mean for that to be the sole indicator of a good working/tough Dobermann. I will from now on but it was something I noticed when pressure was applied the Dobermann of old would take the fight to the decoy by wrapping there legs around the decoy fighting through the bite. Seemed to be a trait that I have not seen in Dobermanns I have tested with pressure applied in quite sometime. How very strange that my "pathetic" show dogs do it and the working ones dont. I wonder why. I would love for ONE puppy buyer to come to me and say - I want to compete in something with the dog, Im yet to find one like that...... everyone wants a pet, not interested in any dog sports AT ALL. Not even obedience or agility? I would have thought dobes a good choice for those activities in particular... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Monelite I am not sure if you can remember or not but what was the name of that red bitch that was trialing in Schutzhund around 4 years ago? it started with a M from memory, I think she got up to SCHII in Victoria? Nevermind it came back to me her name was Mali. Edited February 13, 2011 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenau1 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 There are a few Dobes that track here in WA with TrackWest, I hope to do that with my Dobe too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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