Abby Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not saying the vets are doing the wrong thing. I genuinely am curious how other professionals and small businesses deal with these situations and why they are able to recover debts regularly and many vets are not. In my business I only deal with a few clients and trust that they'll pay the invoices. As a vet, any random person can walk in and need your services and products, so I understand it is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 From what was once said to me by a Vet. It's hard to recoup cost on a service. If you sold goods, that would be a different story. But how do you take back your time if a client doesn't pay. Ditto if you dispensed drugs. You can't just knock on the door and ask for it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not saying the vets are doing the wrong thing. I genuinely am curious how other professionals and small businesses deal with these situations and why they are able to recover debts regularly and many vets are not. They aren't, I'm afraid. I lost a full third of my income last year in bad debts that had hit the end of the line, in a large part due to the GFC. This was in a wholesale business, so the numbers are different (companies can go bust owing huge amounts of money, when they had been financially strong for years). If you look at most service providers they have ways and means of limiting their losses. It's either very small amounts, or they are taking deposits, progress payments, bank guarantees, or a strong trading history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShesaLikeableBiBear Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 A very sad situation. Surely if the vet was her regular vet, who she had been seeing for years, and never had any issues with, as Bartok has mentioned on p2 then he could have considered part payment?, given it was a Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you can't afford to replace your car, you insure it.... For some people why is being without a car more important than saving the life of their animal. As an owner, if you dont have access to money to pay $1000 upfront for some treatment, then how can you look past insurance? I dont blame vet's if they ask for money up front, however I would like to think if the client was well known, and the vet was confident of the persons financial position and morals then there would be some leeway. A vet goes to work to earn money....to pay their own bills, they cannot afford to risk being left without payment. Why should their income suffer? I have done pharma reping and I know plenty of vets (usually single vet practices) that cannot afford to be left with a $900 antivenom bill. Its hard core to say that 'how could the vet just let the animal die'...well majority of dog owners are aware of insurance, so how could a pet owner be so underprepared for the likelihood of a largish vet bill. Perhaps the vet should take out income insurance :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The Vets first priority should be the welfare of the dog, not the money. But the money has to come from somewhere. If the owner doesn't pay immediately then the vet has to cover the cost. Are you really saying that the vet should cover these things out of their own pocket if owners don't have the money/don't believe they should pay because the dog died/says they can buy a new dog for that amount? The vets bills don't stop. Any business owner factors in loss. It is a part of life. As for people 'beleiving they shouldn't have to pay' I really can't see where you are even getting this from? :D Are your even reading what I am writing? :D No reasonable person expects any business to be cheated from fair payment for services rendered. I will repeat though, that in this situation, we are talking about life and death. The life and death of a dog that was in definite danger of dying and dying sooner rather than later. We are talking about an owner who was able to immediately, in her stress, ascertain that she could arrange part of the full amount. Given a few more days, and when the dog was out of immediate danger, most people would be able to find the balance or work out a solution that was satisfactory to both the business and the client. Instead, the dog is dead. A dog, in an emergency situation, a situation that was not able to be controlled is dead. A dog through no fault of its own is dead. An owner is grieving, all because they were expected to pay in full for a service BEFORE the service was rendered. I'll bet they are blaming themselves or lamenting that only the wealthy in this life can survive it unscathed. How would you feel it if was your dog now dead because you couldn't think quickly on the spot if you could raise the money and pay before treatment even commenced. I am not sure about most people, but I am certainly not living in poverty and yet if I was faced with a sudden possibility of having to pay a few thousand dollars out NOW, RIGHT NOW and not before, it would take me some time to determine how I would re-arrange my finances to do this. The person would have been under duress knowing it was a life and death situation as well. They certainly would not have been in the right mind to be determining finances if finances were tight. As I said earlier, I find it somewhat interesting that the conversation even came to that. Why did the owner phone first? Maybe they were trying to find out if the Vet could handle the emergency or was open? Who knows. Maybe there is more to the story? We can all only assume, guess and offer our opinions. I have offered mine and I don't really give a rats who thinks I am right, wrong or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If you can't afford to replace your car, you insure it....For some people why is being without a car more important than saving the life of their animal. As an owner, if you dont have access to money to pay $1000 upfront for some treatment, then how can you look past insurance? I dont blame vet's if they ask for money up front, however I would like to think if the client was well known, and the vet was confident of the persons financial position and morals then there would be some leeway. A vet goes to work to earn money....to pay their own bills, they cannot afford to risk being left without payment. Why should their income suffer? I have done pharma reping and I know plenty of vets (usually single vet practices) that cannot afford to be left with a $900 antivenom bill. Its hard core to say that 'how could the vet just let the animal die'...well majority of dog owners are aware of insurance, so how could a pet owner be so underprepared for the likelihood of a largish vet bill. Perhaps the vet should take out income insurance :D Insurance on dogs is very limited. I have a dog that can not be insured. He is a brachy breed with a idiopathic epilepsy. The Insurers refuse to cover him for the greater majority of illnesses, if they will even cover him at all. Luckily, I have access to cash when needed and to credit cards, but even more so, I have Vets that I have built a relationship with. Not everyone has these things. I am one of the lucky people in life. The woman who has just loved her pet obviously did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 This thread reminds me of the debates that surround desexing and breeding restriction issues. Why should the majority, who are responsible, be punished for majority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 . Why did the owner phone first? Maybe they were trying to find out if the Vet could handle the emergency or was open? Who knows. Maybe there is more to the story? I would always call first if going to a vet in an emergency to let them know you are coming. This lets them prepare for you and be ready to see you right away, and rearrange any procedures or consults. Even more important if the emergency is after hours at an emergency clinic. This is what I have always been told to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 . Why did the owner phone first? Maybe they were trying to find out if the Vet could handle the emergency or was open? Who knows. Maybe there is more to the story? I would always call first if going to a vet in an emergency to let them know you are coming. This lets them prepare for you and be ready to see you right away, and rearrange any procedures or consults. Even more important if the emergency is after hours at an emergency clinic. This is what I have always been told to do. True, and maybe it is because my knowledge of snake bites is zilch, but I would be in the car calling the Vet while on the way to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Insurance on dogs is very limited. I have a dog that can not be insured. He is a brachy breed with a idiopathic epilepsy. The Insurers refuse to cover him for the greater majority of illnesses, if they will even cover him at all. Luckily, I have access to cash when needed and to credit cards, but even more so, I have Vets that I have built a relationship with. Not everyone has these things. I am one of the lucky people in life. The woman who has just loved her pet obviously did not. When I took out insurance for my 2 dogs, one was over 7 at the time and could only get accident only. Correct me of I'm wrong, but can't the brachy breeds can still get accident cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 My oh runs his own small business, most customers are great but some have proved to be first class a-holes who we had to chase and chase for accounts to be paid. Amounts could be as little as $75.00 or as much as $10,000.00, it is time consuming and costly to chase up people to pay accounts. On one occasion we spent $2500.00 via courts to get a $3000.00 payment due and we did only because we were sick of getting screwed over by people who would cry poor but go for o/s holidays or drive around in their new cars.(It gave us great satisfaction to know that the customer ended up spending the same on legal costs so the $3000 bill became $5500.00) Also, our material suppliers tend to not give a rat's butt whether we've had a cheque bounce or not being paid when their money is due. We no longer have accounts but for the occasional emergency cases we do send invoices later because we feel it is unfair to expect people to come up with a reasonable amount of money (depending on what it is) at short notice. (Personally, we do not have credit cards and have bank accounts with $1000.00 day limit and do not have a lazy two thousand sitting around our house so we are assuming most other people do not and cut them some slack accordingly). I think if a deposit is asked for fair enough but to put a dog's life at risk because all monies was not forthcoming is pretty miserable. I have a great relationship with our current vet, but the previous one we used was a money hungry sob and their business has dropped off like you wouldn't believe because of their over the top charges and the way they conducted themselves. Once upon a time you would drive past and the parking lot would be full, now at any given time you see two or three cars. All vets are not saints, a few even dislike most animals they have to deal with and should not be in the business at all. Our Vet is universally liked by everybody I speak too for being an excellent vet and an all round nice guy who does give a crap about animals. He has an accounts settled at end of consult or surgical procedure, but on the one occasion we had an emergency case he sent us the account two weeks later, but if we'd used our previous Vet whom we had a good financial history with, it would be too bad, money up front thanks. I can see both sides of this story as presented, but to turn a desperate owner away with the offer of most of money upfront is pretty ruthless and hardassed in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 It might be life or death for the animal but the person responsible for determining which it is, is the owner of the animal. If anyone is to feel guilty about the death of an animal, then it should be the owner (for not having sufficient provisioning as the death may have been preventable if they had) and not the vet. Perhaps this thread should be a lesson to people who live in areas with snake - that they need to ensure that they have adequate funds tucked away for a snake bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 . Why did the owner phone first? Maybe they were trying to find out if the Vet could handle the emergency or was open? Who knows. Maybe there is more to the story? I would always call first if going to a vet in an emergency to let them know you are coming. This lets them prepare for you and be ready to see you right away, and rearrange any procedures or consults. Even more important if the emergency is after hours at an emergency clinic. This is what I have always been told to do. True, and maybe it is because my knowledge of snake bites is zilch, but I would be in the car calling the Vet while on the way to them. You have worked in several Vet Clinics but you know nothing about snakes..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepherds Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I am fortunate to have an excellent vet - nothing is a problem and indeed when my first dog passed away after unsuccessful surgery - I was still chasing the vet a couple of months later for the invoice (I just wanted to pay it and have it all finalised) - her reasoning at the time was she couldnt bring herself to do it. I also had the misfortune of another one of my dogs suffering from a snake bite (he survived)...rushed trip to the vets....they advised me of the cost of the anti venom - but at no time did they request payment up front.... I was just told it might take a number of vials and the cost for each vial..... Having said that - I am a regular client - (I have suggested the next extension on the practice should be named after one of my animals ) - and I know all other "regular" clients receive the same treatment as myself. Also plastered on the reception wall is a poster advising of the potential costs in the unlucky event your dog is bitten. Its a very hard call to make....and unfortunately a sad reflection on things today that not all people are honest.....Vets are a business and cant afford to carry the cost of unpaid for treatment/drugs - to stock necessary drugs on their own is a significant burden and can run into the $100k depending on the size of the practice......(think about the cost of individual tablets - whether it be heart medicine, antibiotics, NSAIDS - even worm tablets). And in the end - us people that do pay and do look after our animals - in the long run we will pay for those that dont....through increased consultation fees as vets try to recoup/reduce bad debts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 A very sad situation.Surely if the vet was her regular vet, who she had been seeing for years, and never had any issues with, as Bartok has mentioned on p2 then he could have considered part payment?, given it was a Sunday. There are very different levels of being a regular vet client. I have been using my vet for about 20 years, have multiple dogs and over the years have paid out $1000s to them. They know if I run up a bill I will pay it and continue as a client with my other dogs. The average pet owner usually only has one dog at a time. They may be a regular as far as vaccinations and an occasional ailment but if the dog is bitten by a snake then dies, they are then no longer clients, so there is no incentive to pay the bill if they no longer have the dog. This is the risk vets take with allowing credit for anti-venom. Each time a vial is used the vet has to replace it immediately and they have to pay for it up front. It is only fair that clients do the same. My vet would not charge me up front but I would expect if I had to go to a different vet because I was in another area, they probably would. Same applies to treament for ticks. Most vets also require up front payment for any surgery for new clients. Same applies to private hospitals for humans. Try going to a private hospital for surgery and asking them to bill you. They all require payment at the time of admission. If you have health insurance they take that with any required gap paid on admission. If you don't have insurance you have to pay the whole lot up front before they will admit you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogz4eva Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 It might be life or death for the animal but the person responsible for determining which it is, is the owner of the animal. If anyone is to feel guilty about the death of an animal, then it should be the owner (for not having sufficient provisioning as the death may have been preventable if they had) and not the vet. Perhaps this thread should be a lesson to people who live in areas with snake - that they need to ensure that they have adequate funds tucked away for a snake bit. What if like myself wehn my dog was bitten they rolled up to the vet without their wallet on them becuase they forgot it becuase they were in such a hurry?Are you going to waste time going home to get it and let the dog die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I am only asking this as I found it a bit sadMy neighbour was at her friends house on the weekend and friends Husky decided to take on a Red Belly. The Husky lost and was bitten They rang the ladies ver and another vet to seek treament but both told her she needed to pay full treatment price before they open the vile of anti-venom Well this doesnt make sense but it's second hand info anyway so something has been lost in translation. How can a vet charge full treatment price when they dont even know what it is when the dog is first brought in. Some dogs are out after one vial and a day or two. Some are in intensive care for over a week. Dog owners should all be aware of who in their area stocks AV - not all vets carry it. Just ring up and ask if you dont know, and ask what your payment options would be in the unfortunate event that your dog/s get envenomated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Insurance on dogs is very limited. I have a dog that can not be insured. He is a brachy breed with a idiopathic epilepsy. The Insurers refuse to cover him for the greater majority of illnesses, if they will even cover him at all. Luckily, I have access to cash when needed and to credit cards, but even more so, I have Vets that I have built a relationship with. Not everyone has these things. I am one of the lucky people in life. The woman who has just loved her pet obviously did not. When I took out insurance for my 2 dogs, one was over 7 at the time and could only get accident only. Correct me of I'm wrong, but can't the brachy breeds can still get accident cover. Given that in the 7 years I have owned my epi Pug, we have averaged $1800 per year in Veterinary fees for him, and he has never had 'an accident' in that time, I can't see the point in paying cover when the main thing I spend money on medically will not be covered. Brachy breeds can certainly be covered, but primarily for annual check-ups and vaccinations, and nothing to do with health related issues. I don't vaccinate my dogs. They visit the Vet more than once per year for their various ailments, so they also never have to visit just for a 'general' check-up either. Insurance in my case is totally useless. I am sure there are many others out there who for various reasons have also decided that insurance is simply not viable for them and their situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal House Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I find it very sad that money determines if a dog lives or dies. I wouldn't expect free treatment, but if I was out on a walk and my dog got bitten, I don't have my wallet with me, and I don't have a CC at all. I took out pet insurance, but once again, you still have to pay upfront and then claim back from the insurance co. And if a vet required $900 upfront before starting treatment for a snakebite, I for one, wouldn't be able to come up with that amount. If I was given a couple of days, I could arrange something. My local vets (semi country vets) are very strict with payment. If you ring to book your animal in for anything, they always say "payment is due on the day". I remember when my cat got very sick about 4-5 years ago (mind you, I'd just spent $1500 on my horses vets bill 2 weeks ealier, and had been a regular at this vets clinic for 3 years). I rang up to ask if I could bring him down and said I thought he was dying, and they said only if I paid on the day. I told them I only had $40, but was due to be paid the next day, so they asked me to bring down some items of value to keep in their safe until I paid the bill. I had to bring in my sapphire bracelet, and sign it over to them. The cat didn't make it, I wasn't happy with the vets 'treatment', but still paid the bill. I really feel for the lady who's dog was refused treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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