Vets And Snake Bites

[Danois]

As said............vets are not banks.

Do you expect to go get all your groceries in a trolley, swipe them and then say do you mind if I pay next week when I get paid. Or go to chemist to pick up important heart meds and just expect them to be handed over because you left your wallet at home but you NEED them and so they should just trust you will come back later and pay for them.

Vets are also running a business and yes I understand more emotions are involved in animals than groceries but why should vets get a raw end of a grudge. They don't know you dog like you. Clients are trying to protect their pets which is fair enough. Vets are also trying to protect your pets as well as their business or their bosses investment and their own jobs.

Now you are talking about 2 different things.Paying later and being asked to pay upfront.I would expect to pay at the end of treatment/consult.Not before.

Yes but how do they know you will pay at the end of the consult? We are talking about anti-venom here which is a considerable expense to the clinic.

[dancinbcs]

While Vit C has been shown to be some help I personally wouldn't stop for the amount of time required to give it. Unless I lived a very long distance from veterinary help.

Also some snakes dry bite, as in they strike but do not envenomate. If this is the case, giving Vit C would appear to cure the bite when there was no envenomation in the first place.

Do you have a study showing it buys a few hours?? While I believe it can help I am not sure I would confidently say it can buy a few hours. There are so many factors involved with envenomation to death that I am not sure I would trust it that much.

My advice is grab and bolt, ideally getting someone else to phone ahead so the vets are expecting you. Obviously there is the issue of payment with some clinics so I would advise finding out what your vets protocol is on that BEFORE you actually need to put it to the test.

I can tell you from experience it will buy you a few hours.My dog was bitten on the lip twice by a 6 to 7 foot dugite (brown snake).Vet said becuase of capillaries this is the worst place to get bitten.I saw her get bitten and injected her intravenously straight away and then an hour later.It was 2 to 3 hours by the time I got a vet and got to the surgery.I am talking about a 60 pound dog,so there is no way a dog that size bitten where it was could have survived that long without it.Vet administered antivenine and dog was looking good but the inexpereinced vet gave her an atropin injection straight away and stopped her heart so I lost my best mate and still had to pay $900.All he could say as I carried her out the door was are you going to pay now or later.He is very lucky he still has his front teeth.

Our vets have tested it (with owner permission) on dogs, where the owner simply says they cannot afford the anti-venom treatment at all. I think about the longest time they had a dog survive was about 4 hours after a brown snake bite. If it is black snake, you generally have a few hours to get to a vet but if you are more than about 20 min from the vet, and the dog is bitten by a brown, it won't make it as far as the vet to seek treatment. With many clients 40-60 minutes away, our vets recommend the Vit C as a stop gap measure.

[spoilt lab lives here]

My vet and my bank are on either side of my work. If something did happen and for some reason I didnt have the funds upfront I would see my bank manager and see if I could get the money that way or as an absolute last resort ask my boss if I could put it on the business CC and it back at a later date.

My vet knows me well, we do their debt collection at work so Im fairly sure Id be ok but to have backup plans is always a good idea.

[bulldogz4eva]

As said............vets are not banks.

Do you expect to go get all your groceries in a trolley, swipe them and then say do you mind if I pay next week when I get paid. Or go to chemist to pick up important heart meds and just expect them to be handed over because you left your wallet at home but you NEED them and so they should just trust you will come back later and pay for them.

Vets are also running a business and yes I understand more emotions are involved in animals than groceries but why should vets get a raw end of a grudge. They don't know you dog like you. Clients are trying to protect their pets which is fair enough. Vets are also trying to protect your pets as well as their business or their bosses investment and their own jobs.

Now you are talking about 2 different things.Paying later and being asked to pay upfront.I would expect to pay at the end of treatment/consult.Not before.

Yes but how do they know you will pay at the end of the consult? We are talking about anti-venom here which is a considerable expense to the clinic.

I guess becuase I go to the same vet and have done for 15 years and have never had a bad debt in my life anywhere.I do understand the considerable cost of antivenin but I dont like the inference that I am not going to pay.I think it is a bit cold.I have never come across it here but I am not living in inner Sydney so maybe I am a little naive.i guess there are people who would go from one vet to another and never pay just as they do with many other businesses.

My vet would never turn anyone away regardless.there is a myriad of cats and other small dogs running around his surgery,some without limbs becuase they have been run over and someone has brought them in.He has taken them in and nursed them back to health and kept them.He is someone that truly cares for animals and I will be sad when he retires.

[~Anne~]

the owner had already said they could cover part of that amount

That's the point though, they said they would pay X amount. Saying and doing are two very different things which is why the situation stands as it is.

So instead of taking it on good faith, the dog is left to die because of a scenario that may never occur. In other words, the focus of the Vet is on his money and not on the dog. If it were a standard consult, or a medical issue that was not life and death I could well understand this attitude.

Sorry, it doesn't matter what way it is looked at, it shows what a sad society we are becoming when this is what the focus is.

I am thankful that I have the Vets I do, and the relationship with them that I do. I would never be the porr person in this situation, who through no fault of their own, has to decide f their dog lives or dies because of money. ;)

[~Anne~]

As said............vets are not banks.

Do you expect to go get all your groceries in a trolley, swipe them and then say do you mind if I pay next week when I get paid. Or go to chemist to pick up important heart meds and just expect them to be handed over because you left your wallet at home but you NEED them and so they should just trust you will come back later and pay for them.

Vets are also running a business and yes I understand more emotions are involved in animals than groceries but why should vets get a raw end of a grudge. They don't know you dog like you. Clients are trying to protect their pets which is fair enough. Vets are also trying to protect your pets as well as their business or their bosses investment and their own jobs.

Now you are talking about 2 different things.Paying later and being asked to pay upfront.I would expect to pay at the end of treatment/consult.Not before.

Yes but how do they know you will pay at the end of the consult? We are talking about anti-venom here which is a considerable expense to the clinic.

The Vets first priority should be the welfare of the dog, not the money.

[Everythings Shiny]

Country Vets are becoming this way too.

My vet does what he can, but if someone calls out of the blue and asks for the antivenom, he worries, vets aren't a charity, they are a business and can't afford to be giving thousands upon thousands of dollars up on people not paying.

We will treat as best we can but without some form of payment, we can't give the anti-venom as it would send us out of business. Most vets have high bad debtors rates if they aren't strict.

[megan_]

The Vets first priority should be the welfare of the dog, not the money.

But the money has to come from somewhere. If the owner doesn't pay immediately then the vet has to cover the cost.

Are you really saying that the vet should cover these things out of their own pocket if owners don't have the money/don't believe they should pay because the dog died/says they can buy a new dog for that amount?

The vets bills don't stop.

[Everythings Shiny]

If people can't pay, they are refused service or recommended to the RSPCA who is a charity. Vets aren't charity i'm affraid, money doesn't grow on trees, and bank rolling people with unknown credentials is not something they can just do.

[Staff'n'Toller]

It has been this way for a while now re: deposit or payment of the first nights' treatment of snake bite.

It would never have come about it people respected the service and everyone paid their bills, we could still invoice and wait - if everyone was honest.

The simple fact is that people are not honest anymore, and morality seems to have flown out the window. It's ok that the Vet Clinic wears the cost as long as it's not 'them' who are wearing the cost.

Something happens when an animal dies, this forum is filled with people who have a deep attachment with their pet but where the attachment is not as strong, and the owner is fueled by guilt of what they have not done with/for the pet in the past, they say go ahead with treatment in the heat of the moment not thinking about how the heck they are going to pay.

Then despite thousands in treatment and intensive care, the dog passes away, now there is no dog, and for some reason the feeling of responsibility to pay goes out the window.

I have ashes here in the cupboard of owners who were frightfully upset and were told the cost of cremation, we have long paid the hundreds of dollars for these pets to be cremated and their owners will never collect their pets - you call and call and send letters - they don't ask for a payment plan @ $10 a week or anything, they just don't answer messages and they never come....

We don't run on bequests here, we are not a registered charity, we are a small clinic we can't just absorb costs....wtf do you do?? ;)

[Danois]

we are a small clinic we can't just absorb costs....wtf do you do?? ;)

Following the logic of some here (that you must treat the animal), the only logical answer to your question is that you go out of business.

But that's okay right? After all, the dog survived and that's what matters the most...

[TrinaJ]

So sorry for your friend. I have a credit card that I have never touched just in case, however I doubt my vet would ever put down a dog because I only had half of the money this week.

[OSoSwift]

While Vit C has been shown to be some help I personally wouldn't stop for the amount of time required to give it. Unless I lived a very long distance from veterinary help.

Also some snakes dry bite, as in they strike but do not envenomate. If this is the case, giving Vit C would appear to cure the bite when there was no envenomation in the first place.

Do you have a study showing it buys a few hours?? While I believe it can help I am not sure I would confidently say it can buy a few hours. There are so many factors involved with envenomation to death that I am not sure I would trust it that much.

My advice is grab and bolt, ideally getting someone else to phone ahead so the vets are expecting you. Obviously there is the issue of payment with some clinics so I would advise finding out what your vets protocol is on that BEFORE you actually need to put it to the test.

I can tell you from experience it will buy you a few hours.My dog was bitten on the lip twice by a 6 to 7 foot dugite (brown snake).Vet said becuase of capillaries this is the worst place to get bitten.I saw her get bitten and injected her intravenously straight away and then an hour later.It was 2 to 3 hours by the time I got a vet and got to the surgery.I am talking about a 60 pound dog,so there is no way a dog that size bitten where it was could have survived that long without it.Vet administered antivenine and dog was looking good but the inexpereinced vet gave her an atropin injection straight away and stopped her heart so I lost my best mate and still had to pay $900.All he could say as I carried her out the door was are you going to pay now or later.He is very lucky he still has his front teeth.

If I was 2 to 3 hours from a vet I would defintately give Vit C as if it did buy me time that would be a good thing. Luckily I am much closer so I would bolt. Our vet routinely gives Vit C when treating an animal for snake bite and I do have some in my fridge just in case. As you never know.

Due to the fact it would take as long to give it by IV slowly as it would to get to the vet it is easy for me to say I wouldn't give it as it would nearly double the time to get to vet care.

So far I have been very lucky and haven't needed to test the theory. Had a few close calls but no bites thankfully.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Thanks to the OP for this thread and I am very sorry for your friends loss RIP poor pupper.

I was unaware that antivenom was so expensive and if my dogs had been bitten I would have just rushed to the vets not expecting to be asked to pay upfront and certainly not expecting such a massive amount for the antivenom. I will certainly make sure from now on I have credit available just in case of this situation. Luckily we don't see to many poisonous snakes in my area mostly constrictors.

I don't think the general population of dog owners are really aware of this fact and maybe vets should have signage up in their clinics about the costs so people become aware and hopefully take measures to ensure they have the money in case of that sort of situation. Some sort of education regarding the cost of anitvenom for snake bites etc really should happen so people don't get caught unawares, it may save some dogs lives and some vets money.

[Staff'n'Toller]

To go off topic, my boss runs a virtually pro-bono dog health program in the NT. When I say virtually pro-bono he is paid for his services, but they usually cover charter flights, accom, food (@ 3 x the cost of Melbourne prices) and other essentials.

Very early on in the program back in Melbourne he had me total up the cost of literally every consumable, per needle, per swab, per ml of disinfectant, every single thing that is used up per trip (he is a stickler for keeping records ;) ).

On the non-funny side once I had split it all down and added it back up I nearly cried, I had no idea how much it cost and I couldn't even tell him face to face I had to hand him the spreadsheet. Five years later he still runs this program, he's so emotionally attached there is no way out.

Our last vial of Tiger/Brown combined has gone out of date and is still in the fridge along with the new one I ordered because doG forbid you gave a dog out of date anti-venene and it died- you'd be strung up before the Veterinary Board. We will eventually have to throw it, along with the Snake Bite Venom Detection Kits that are also stupidly expensive when they go out of date. ;) But it all has to be there and within date just in case.

[Aidan3]

Unless we get Medicare for dogs (won't happen), this is the way it will be.

Every bad debt on the books costs that debt plus whatever it would have earned had it been paid (plus costs of collection). Regardless of whether the practice has an overdraft or not. There are only so many billable hours in a week and those should be valued just as you would stock.

I would prefer my vet refused treatment than went out of business, I need them and I make sure the funds are accessible in a hurry should they be required.

[Abby]

I don't think the general population of dog owners are really aware of this fact and maybe vets should have signage up in their clinics about the costs so people become aware and hopefully take measures to ensure they have the money in case of that sort of situation. Some sort of education regarding the cost of anitvenom for snake bites etc really should happen so people don't get caught unawares, it may save some dogs lives and some vets money.

That's a good point. I think in life generally people should have access to a few thousand in emergency funds (even if this is a credit card).

I understand that vets have trouble with people not paying bills. But many professionals and small companies I know of invoice their clients after a service is rendered, and therefore chase bad debtors when they arise, then why can't vets?

[Everythings Shiny]

I don't think the general population of dog owners are really aware of this fact and maybe vets should have signage up in their clinics about the costs so people become aware and hopefully take measures to ensure they have the money in case of that sort of situation. Some sort of education regarding the cost of anitvenom for snake bites etc really should happen so people don't get caught unawares, it may save some dogs lives and some vets money.

That's a good point. I think in life generally people should have access to a few thousand in emergency funds (even if this is a credit card).

I understand that vets have trouble with people not paying bills. But many professionals and small companies I know of invoice their clients after a service is rendered, and therefore chase bad debtors when they arise, then why can't vets?

It used to be done this way, but too many people ruined it by not paying at all.

[Aidan3]

I understand that vets have trouble with people not paying bills. But many professionals and small companies I know of invoice their clients after a service is rendered, and therefore chase bad debtors when they arise, then why can't vets?

I can think of a lot of trades who insist on a deposit (usually the cost of materials) before beginning a job. Most medical services are required to be paid upfront one way or another (Medicare or private insurance). If it's a large amount of money at stake, it usually has to be paid up-front.

Personal bankruptcies have been rising at alarming rates since the GFC. It is now seen as an easy way out by people with a stunning lack of foresight or personal pride.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I understand that vets have trouble with people not paying bills. But many professionals and small companies I know of invoice their clients after a service is rendered, and therefore chase bad debtors when they arise, then why can't vets?

Twice last year we were given false name, address, phone numbers and the owners did not drive so no license to check.

You may as well take $200 of your hard earned and blow it into the breeze. ;)