Why Would A Dog Alert Bark More With One Person Than Another?

[corvus]

The scenario is: dog lives with two people, treats them both the same, the people share the care of the dog, but when one person is with the dog at home it alert barks a lot, but when the other person is with the dog at home it doesn't alert bark much. The obvious answer is one person is rewarding barking somehow or the other person is punishing it somehow, but I wonder if there are other possible reasons outside of operant conditioning?

[tlc]

Could it be possible the dog barks more with one person because he doesn't feel that person is a strong enough pack member? And feels the need to protect. Yet with the other person the dog feels protected so no need to bark as much?

[Aidan3]

Could it be possible the dog barks more with one person because he doesn't feel that person is a strong enough pack member? And feels the need to protect. Yet with the other person the dog feels protected so no need to bark as much?

Or maybe the other way around, barks more with the person most capable of protecting him, so he can "mouth off"?

I think operant conditioning could explain a greater variety of motivations than the person directly punishing or reinforcing barking. Given that barking is an operant, and it is being maintained, then it is on some schedule of reinforcement.

Let's assume that the people are absolutely neutral, they don't respond to barking at all in any way (which is impossible if they are still alive, but let's ignore that). Then we might be seeing a negative reinforcement contingency, the dog "believes" that he avoids an aversive consequence by barking. In which case, we have a few different scenarios - the scenario tlc offered, the scenario I offered (only slightly tongue in cheek), or the different people are simply different stimulus conditions (cues) that purely by chance have become associated with more or less of the behaviour depending on the most salient level of threat the dog has felt while those people have been there (whether that is related or unrelated to those particular people, we don't know).

But the most likely scenario is that one of the people has done something one or more times that reinforces or punishes barking.

[Vickie]

Many years ago my husband had to go interstate to work for 6 months. He would come home most weekends.

For a few weeks when he first left, my 2 dogs prowled around the house all night. They did not alert bark but they did growl & grumble at the front & back door.

Normally they slept in our room with us, but they just paced all night. In time they settled down, got used to him being away & came back to sleep in our room with no more pacing or growling.

All I could think was that I was subconsciously worried about being in the house alone & they were picking up on it.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Vickie

[corvus]

All I could think was that I was subconsciously worried about being in the house alone & they were picking up on it.

Or they felt on edge with the change in routine?

[corvus]

How would you tell the difference between this:

But the most likely scenario is that one of the people has done something one or more times that reinforces or punishes barking.

... and this:

or the different people are simply different stimulus conditions (cues) that purely by chance have become associated with more or less of the behaviour depending on the most salient level of threat the dog has felt while those people have been there (whether that is related or unrelated to those particular people, we don't know).

Say you isolated possible rewarding or punishing behaviour from the people and get them to stop one at a time to see what happens, but if there's no effect it could be either none of them were related or the behaviour is now habitual and no longer needs maintenance from the people. The human behaviour that reinforces or punishes could be quite subtle and habitual as well. I know I have knee jerk reactions I don't even know I'm doing half the time. If someone asked me to stop doing them, I'd be hard-pressed.

[Aidan3]

How would you tell the difference between this:

But the most likely scenario is that one of the people has done something one or more times that reinforces or punishes barking.

... and this:

or the different people are simply different stimulus conditions (cues) that purely by chance have become associated with more or less of the behaviour depending on the most salient level of threat the dog has felt while those people have been there (whether that is related or unrelated to those particular people, we don't know).

I don't think it would be possible for the people to be completely neutral to the barking while they were still alive. However, observation would soon give you leads to follow and test via functional analysis. Not very practical if this is an actual problem for someone, much easier just to teach the dogs what you want instead of excessive barking, of course!

[Bjelkier]

I was wondering about this the other day.

My neighbours have a very fear aggressive Dobe (among other things).

When the husband is there on his own, she is much calmer with her alert barking (and lunging for that matter) and yet when the wife is there alone the dog is a basket case, she just goes on and on and on.

My current running theory is that the poor dog is stressed out of its mind because when the wife is around she feels she needs to be the pack leader and clearly isnt comfortable in the position.

What strange though is that they seem to treat the dog in the same manner.

But I'm not a trainer so this is all guess work and I could be way off base with this

[corvus]

Food for thought:

Assuming the point of dominant behaviour is to control resources, including possibly the behaviour of others, then it would follow that a dog that is "pack leader" even temporarily for whatever reason ought to feel confident seeing as they are in control of everything that matters. Therefore a dog that is not confident as "pack leader" couldn't feel in control and therefore is not "pack leader".

[Nekhbet]

is the dog alert barking more with the same sex or opposite sex person?

it's not all down to reward and punishment and I wouldnt really put it down to that. The dog may not feel as relaxed with one person as it does another hence it feels the need to alert bark more.

plus to add, no dog will ever treat two people exactly the same, no creature on the planet does. There will always be differences sometimes a little too subtle to notice unless you are making a conscious effort too.

[corvus]

is the dog alert barking more with the same sex or opposite sex person?

Opposite sex.

[Aidan3]

it's not all down to reward and punishment and I wouldnt really put it down to that. The dog may not feel as relaxed with one person as it does another hence it feels the need to alert bark more.

Yes, it doesn't have to be a reward coming from outside the dog, it can be an intrinsic reward, in this case via negative reinforcement.

[Nekhbet]

Opposite sex.

had a feeling it was. Male dog with a female owner perhaps?

[corvus]

Opposite sex.

had a feeling it was. Male dog with a female owner perhaps?

Why do you say that?

[Nekhbet]

am I right

I find the dog will develop a different relationship with the member of the opposite sex in the household. Dogs take on the wife as a pseudo-partner and vice versa, especially if there is only one dog in the house.

I do find when the hubby leaves some male dogs take it upon themselves to keep watch over their 'bitch'. These mental pairings can be particlarly exacerbated when the dog is uncontrolled and innately takes it upon itself to 'pair' with the opposite sex owner and the partner has problems with the dogs. Saying that my bitch treats my fiance like a puppy, she cuddles him into the corner of the couch and grooms his head her 'boyfriend' is our friend Mark whom she absolutely goo goos over when he comes over. He gave her a little stuffed toy elephant for her birthday,

she has not torn a stitch and hides it from the other dogs (she's a soft toy shredder) . If they go to take it from her she bares her teeth and she wont really use it as a toy to bring me to throw for her. Its just something she sits there with and chews it gently.

Doesnt happen in every family but often enough. I know one couple, hubby is totally not the dog person and doesnt really want a bar of her, but their young bitch think's he's the bees knees compared to the wife who does the walking, feeding and training. It's not a total snobbing but you can see who the favourite is in the dogs eyes.

[corvus]

am I right

Yes. I dunno, though. The dog doesn't seem to have a favourite.

I don't have any girl dogs to compare, but I don't think either of my boy dogs behave markedly different towards me than towards my OH. Well, maybe Kivi is a bit of a mummy's boy. He doesn't exactly have a preference for spending time with me, but if he wants a cuddle he more often comes to me than my partner. My parents' dogs all treat my mum and dad much the same, with the exception that my dad doesn't do much with the dogs and so they hardly ever listen to him regardless of their gender. The male dog we are babysitting at the moment definitely has a preference for OH's dad over his mum. They share the care equally. He is mostly untrained but very anxious. Would this be something unlikely to occur with an anxious dog, or does it not matter?

I always thought the differences were more to do with whether a dog was the kind prone to developing a bond to one person or a whole family unit.

[Henrietta]

Doesnt happen in every family but often enough. I know one couple, hubby is totally not the dog person and doesnt really want a bar of her, but their young bitch think's he's the bees knees compared to the wife who does the walking, feeding and training. It's not a total snobbing but you can see who the favourite is in the dogs eyes.

My goodness... sounds like my girl and my younger brother. And the wife sounds like me.

[Nekhbet]

Yes. tongue.gif I dunno, though. The dog doesn't seem to have a favourite. shrug.gif

I don't have any girl dogs to compare, but I don't think either of my boy dogs behave markedly different towards me than towards my OH. Well, maybe Kivi is a bit of a mummy's boy. He doesn't exactly have a preference for spending time with me, but if he wants a cuddle he more often comes to me than my partner. My parents' dogs all treat my mum and dad much the same, with the exception that my dad doesn't do much with the dogs and so they hardly ever listen to him regardless of their gender. The male dog we are babysitting at the moment definitely has a preference for OH's dad over his mum. They share the care equally. He is mostly untrained but very anxious. Would this be something unlikely to occur with an anxious dog, or does it not matter?

I always thought the differences were more to do with whether a dog was the kind prone to developing a bond to one person or a whole family unit.

Get someone who knows dog behaviour to watch you guys for a while, there can be differences.

This is not about favourites per say, although it can swing into that type of behaviour. This you see down on a primal level of the dog finding it's 'partner' in the pack and treating them as such, eg as a mating partner or a puppy. Not saying the dog is going to hump the person but you can sometimes see a definite pairing that the dog chooses. Remember official top dude, husband, has left the area so dog takes it upon himself to guard the 'bitch'. It's not about being alpha, as positions within a pack are fluid, this dog thinks he has a job to do.

One severe case was a really large male dog who 'paired' with the daughter in the family, anyone who came near her bedroom was fair game to be attacked. She could do whatever to the dog, everyone else was not fully trusted. Dog had been desexed from 8 weeks as well so it doesnt always make a difference

The male dog we are babysitting at the moment definitely has a preference for OH's dad over his mum. They share the care equally. He is mostly untrained but very anxious.

Dogs like this can gravitate towards what they find the most stable, consistent authority figuire in their lives. This doesnt necessarily mean the 'kindest' or 'nicest' but the one they see as most worthy of trust and obedience which can be a separate issue to gender. I get it too when I train some dogs and then off lead they bolt to me over their owners and wont listen to them O_o I'm not training my minion army, truely i'm not. This situation is not like the intrapack 'pairing' some dogs do, this comes down to the fact they stick to the person who makes them feel most comfortable.

[corvus]

Get someone who knows dog behaviour to watch you guys for a while, there can be differences.

Oh, there are differences, just mostly to do with reinforcement histories. We don't treat them exactly the same as each other.

This is not about favourites per say, although it can swing into that type of behaviour. This you see down on a primal level of the dog finding it's 'partner' in the pack and treating them as such, eg as a mating partner or a puppy. Not saying the dog is going to hump the person but you can sometimes see a definite pairing that the dog chooses. Remember official top dude, husband, has left the area so dog takes it upon himself to guard the 'bitch'. It's not about being alpha, as positions within a pack are fluid, this dog thinks he has a job to do.

Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen that. Unless it can occur in a cat?? My family has a cat that 'chose' my youngest brother. She is with him almost 24/7 and rides around the house on his shoulder. He can do anything to her and if she can't find him she roams around the house calling until he calls back and then she runs to him and he puts her back on his shoulder. It's quite remarkable. I've never seen a cat so bonded to someone.

One severe case was a really large male dog who 'paired' with the daughter in the family, anyone who came near her bedroom was fair game to be attacked. She could do whatever to the dog, everyone else was not fully trusted. Dog had been desexed from 8 weeks as well so it doesnt always make a difference

How do you tell that apart from resource guarding?

The male dog we are babysitting at the moment definitely has a preference for OH's dad over his mum. They share the care equally. He is mostly untrained but very anxious.

Dogs like this can gravitate towards what they find the most stable, consistent authority figuire in their lives. This doesnt necessarily mean the 'kindest' or 'nicest' but the one they see as most worthy of trust and obedience which can be a separate issue to gender. I get it too when I train some dogs and then off lead they bolt to me over their owners and wont listen to them O_o I'm not training my minion army, truely i'm not. This situation is not like the intrapack 'pairing' some dogs do, this comes down to the fact they stick to the person who makes them feel most comfortable.

He's not the 'nicest'! Whenever this dog stays with us he transfers this neediness to me, which I detest. I'm not the nicest, either! But he still periodically stands on the couch and looks out the window whining. I'm just a placeholder. I spend more time with him.

[Nekhbet]

How do you tell that apart from resource guarding?

it can turn into resource guarding in a way. One thing I hear is the dog not liking the partner and pushing people apart or baring teeth at the partner if they come too close or touch in a way the dog deems innapropriate. If you want to be called a resource that is

ETA that dog did not guard anything else like food, toys, couch spots etc. But when it came to his 'woman' he was hell. Bashed me repeatedly while muzzled because I sat on the bed even with the daughter out of the room, it was his den and he made you know it.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Nekhbet