As A Breeder, Are You Running A Business?

[espinay2]

Definitely not a business here. My website is to showcase my dogs and educate on the breed. I do respond to emails promptly. I do have a waiting list as I have a litter planned. However, I also refer to other breeders (even those on my waiting list get referred as litter isn't planned till end of the year! - some just prefer to wait). I also turn a lot of people away/suggest that the breed would not be suitable for them.

In relation to profit though, where exactly does it say a breeder can't make one?

I would suggest that in recent years it has been the 'mornal line' that breeders can't/shouldnt make a profit/shouldnt breed to often etc etc. If a good breeder can breed good dogs and place them in good homes and make a profit doing it I would suggest that there is nothing anywhere that says they can't. Just because it doesnt happen often doesnt mean it is not allowed.

[Rebanne]

I don't see how I can be running a business when I might only have "goods" for sale every 2 or 3 years

[Tralee]

It is simply not permitted.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it's not going on and the CCs are turning a blind eye to it.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw-...i-1225995114283

Don't know if Kindee Kennels are registered or not?

Quote:

"There are no limits, checks or balances and, with puppies selling for anywhere from $500 up to $1500, it's a very lucrative business."

End quote.

:D :laugh: ;) I don't think the board allows enough rofl's

[Tralee]

It is simply not permitted.

what's not permitted?

I know several people who are a registered business for tax purposes.

Absolutely.

You don't have to be making a profit to declare your business for tax purposes.

And why not? I produce working dogs for working enterprises. While my breeding is not a profitable business, they go to profitable businesses.

Anyone who does not claim their expenses/loses for tax purposes should do so.

Not only does it benefit the dogs because of lower overall costs but improves record keeping as well.

I always have more homes than puppies, but that doesn't mean that if I had more bitches I could still home them all.

Same with other breeds I would imagine.

But you cannot put a value on the quality of life that dogs bring.

This is what puppy farms are missing. And afterall, they have to live with themselves.

[Jed]

It is simply not permitted.

what's not permitted?

I know several people who are a registered business for tax purposes.

Absolutely.

You don't have to be making a profit to declare your business for tax purposes.

In theory, but in practice,contact the ATO and ask about business status. Unless you have A LOT of bitches, and you are either profitable or have the potential to become profitable, they will laugh their heads off. They are not in the business of giving taxpayers write offs for goods unless they are a business. Most of us dont qualify

[Tralee]

Definitely not a business here. My website is to showcase my dogs and educate on the breed.

In relation to profit though, where exactly does it say a breeder can't make one?

I would suggest that in recent years it has been the 'mornal line' that breeders can't/shouldnt make a profit/shouldnt breed to often etc etc. If a good breeder can breed good dogs and place them in good homes and make a profit doing it I would suggest that there is nothing anywhere that says they can't. Just because it doesnt happen often doesnt mean it is not allowed.

Quite the contrary.

If you applied for a prefix then it would be 'nigh impossible for you to have missed that section in the Code of Ethics.

I defy anybody to post a financial plan showing how it is possible to turn a profit without imposing a detriment on the dogs, breeders, regulatory councils or clients.

Of course, it is more than practicable to lower your costs and approach a brake even point, if you are economical and astute, but most breeders spoil their dogs and well there goes any hope of financial recovery.

If I didn't feed my dogs with quality feed and never went near a Vet and had a dozen bitches and an endless list of homes, and I didn't go overseas to source bloodlines and never went near a show ring and ... and ... Wait a minute! wouldn't that be puppy farming?

[Tralee]

In theory, but in practice,contact the ATO and ask about business status. Unless you have A LOT of bitches, and you are either profitable or have the potential to become profitable, they will laugh their heads off. They are not in the business of giving taxpayers write offs for goods unless they are a business. Most of us dont qualify

Well anybody who has a dog related business, like grooming, or Kennels, or dog walking, and did not incorporate their breeding into their running costs are selling themselves short.

Particularly Kennels as the economy of scale would make the costs of keeping their own dogs minimal.

Heck they may even be in a position to come out in front each time they have a litter.

And why not?

The primary objective is not profit from breeding it is just coincident with their other business.

If we are talking business here, and we are, then remember it it encumbent on the taxpayer to prove that they have been overtaxed, otherwise the bastards are legally allowed to steal your money.

[Puppoochi]

Definitely not a business here. My website is to showcase my dogs and educate on the breed.

In relation to profit though, where exactly does it say a breeder can't make one?

I would suggest that in recent years it has been the 'mornal line' that breeders can't/shouldnt make a profit/shouldnt breed to often etc etc. If a good breeder can breed good dogs and place them in good homes and make a profit doing it I would suggest that there is nothing anywhere that says they can't. Just because it doesnt happen often doesnt mean it is not allowed.

Quite the contrary.

If you applied for a prefix then it would be 'nigh impossible for you to have missed that section in the Code of Ethics.

I defy anybody to post a financial plan showing how it is possible to turn a profit without imposing a detriment on the dogs, breeders, regulatory councils or clients.

Of course, it is more than practicable to lower your costs and approach a brake even point, if you are economical and astute, but most breeders spoil their dogs and well there goes any hope of financial recovery.

If I didn't feed my dogs with quality feed and never went near a Vet and had a dozen bitches and an endless list of homes, and I didn't go overseas to source bloodlines and never went near a show ring and ... and ... Wait a minute! wouldn't that be puppy farming?

Ummm, not in the eyes of the CCs, so long as you register every dog, it's more $$$ for them. There was a recent breeder that had been suspended that registers more Toy Poos in Vic that was suspended for 2 counts of having whelped bitches more than twice in 18 months and what did he get, a $250 fine & 6 months suspension per count. A mere slap on the wrist if you ask me. The fines in total isn't even worth half a puppy. Why be so lenient on someone of his ilk unless of course CCs are cashing in on all his registrations. BTW this breeder doesn't participate in any activities with their dogs, he's too busy with puppies all the time.

Personally, I think there should be a limit as to how many dogs we should have. It would be pertaining to space and how many dogs one person can care for adequately.

[Hotwyr]

We are registered as a LAQC and run all our dog expenses thru the company.

We have spent (conservatively) $84,000 since I have been in Wires - including importing 4 dogs

We have got back in pups sold $26,000

Mmmmmm nope - no profit there...

[Tralee]

Of course, it is more than practicable to lower your costs and approach a brake even point, if you are economical and astute, but most breeders spoil their dogs and well there goes any hope of financial recovery.

Ummm, not in the eyes of the CCs, so long as you register every dog, it's more $$$ for them.

Personally, I think there should be a limit as to how many dogs we should have. It would be pertaining to space and how many dogs one person can care for adequately.

Which is why it is called a Code of Ethics

It doesn't matter what they do, it is not possible to legislate for saintliness. That is why it is Saintly.

As to limiting breeding numbers that is also problematic.

Will not the current liasser faire system prevail?

Apparently there are homes for all the GSD, Labs, Staffies, etc.

[Darkrai]

It is simply not permitted.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it's not going on and the CCs are turning a blind eye to it.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw-...i-1225995114283

Don't know if Kindee Kennels are registered or not?

kindee used to be registered, wonder why her litters stop getting posted in the gazette

I knew she had Shih tzu and Silkies didnt know she had Schnauzers and Cav's...

Breeding is a hobby once it becomes a business, you need to get out of dogs...

[Wags]

It's a hobby. To have a business, you must satisfy the requirements of the ATO which requires activities of a business, and an annual profit. And I do answer every single email. I think replying to enquiries is a breeder's responsibility - for the good of the fancy

Technically any breeder that sells a puppy or puppies to the general public (regardless of whether to show/breeding or pet homes) would be classed as a commercial enterprise as the minute one puppy is sold in this manner would classify that transaction as commercial. No matter how regularly puppies are bred and sold by any breeder, it would be a commercial transaction. Some breeders prefer to be set up and transparent, others view it as a hobby and prefer to rest on that. It is however, a commercial transaction. It is not merely selling second hand goods that are no longer wanted. We are intentionally breeding with a view to selling at least some puppies from the litter.

I'm told the ATO view it as a hobby until such time as it becomes the largest income source. Not sure how true this is. However if one was subject to an inspection by the ATO I'm sure the income from sold puppies, however small an amount, would be taken into consideration, particularly if one was self-employed, which is I think why a lot of people set it up under an ABN umbrella.

I'm also told that the first thing Fair Trading will ask, if someone complains to them, is whether you have an ABN or not as they seem to expect you to have one.

As to whether it constitutes a 'business' really isn't relevant as to how contacts are managed.

As registered breeders we are representing the industry/fraternity, whatever you want to call it, and common decency would necessitate an element politeness of some response to contacts from people who have found you on one of the breed advertising sites, such as Dogzonline, even if it's just a standard little email or quote for phone contact. We all slip up sometimes, but if the intent is there, then we're doing the best we can for the reputation of ourselves as registered breeders and ancillary services as a whole.

[Jed]

Wags

I'm told the ATO view it as a hobby until such time as it becomes the largest income source. Not sure how true this is. However if one was subject to an inspection by the ATO I'm sure the income from sold puppies, however small an amount, would be taken into consideration, particularly if one was self-employed, which is I think why a lot of people set it up under an ABN umbrella.

The ATO will not even consider registering dog breeding as a business, unless the breeder can show substantial income. Breeders on pensions are not required to have business status, and centrelink is not interested in the income from pups which those on pensions breed.

If the breeder has another profitable business (grooming etc) dog breeding can be added to that as a business.

It is not terribly easy to have any agricultural enterprise (including) dogs, assessed as a business by the ATO. It needs substantial income, business like behaviour, designated premises, etc. Owners of big farms or stations easily get business status, owners of 10 acres growing olives have great difficulty in being accepted by the ATO as a business.

Anyone can apply for, and get, an ABN

As registered breeders we are representing the industry/fraternity, whatever you want to call it, and common decency would necessitate an element politeness of some response to contacts

Yes, good manners/common decency would demand that we respond to all enquiries in a timely and polite way, whether we are running a hobby or not. I don't believe dog breeding is an industry - that has terrible connotations for me -- and probably for animal rights too, although I think they view it as an industry already

[Boxerheart]

As a breeder/exhibitor of Toy Poodles, I don't breed very often, so therefore it is unrealistic for me to expect someone wanting a pet to be waiting up to a year for a puppy. I do keep a waiting list, however, by the time a litter has come, the people on my waiting list have found a pup elsewhere, which is quite understandable. In my breed there is however many breeders that don't exhibit, that have litters on the ground constantly.

There was a thread in general forum last week about breeders being rude and not answering emails, which has since been removed because it was getting out of control. One post stated that because I was running a business, I should reply to all emails I replied by saying that it is a misconception that all breeders are in business, as I know that I am NOT, I am an enthusiast and it is my hobby. But because I happened to sell pups on occasions, some people regarded that as being a business.

In my eyes, yes, selling a puppy is a business transaction where money passes hands and they receive a puppy, but to say I'm running a business is to me ludicrous. It was also asked that if I'm not running a business, why do I have a website, before I could answer the thread was removed, my answer would have been to showcase my dogs.

Some emails I answer, others I don't, it all depends on the email. I also go out of my way to help people find a pup from what I consider to an ethical reputable breeder if I don't have anything at the time. Toy Poodles are much exploited, so therefore, I choose to promote breeders that not only health test but also do the right thing by the dog.

What are your thoughts? What do you do when you get an email wanting a pup when you don't have any pups on the ground? How do you respond when you get an email not personally addresses to you that basically asking HOW MUCH?

The Tax office would define you as having a hobby, any money you make is irregular and you are not turning over a profit. To be considered as a business by the ATO, your income would have to be seen as regular, and be in excess of 20K a year for over before you could claim your losses.

If you were to put in a tax return annually on your kennels you would not likely to make enough after losses even to pay tax.

I don't think anyone should be peer pressured to answer emails they don't want to...in any case any business will ignore what they consider inappropriate email.

[BJean]

As a breeder/exhibitor of Toy Poodles, I don't breed very often, so therefore it is unrealistic for me to expect someone wanting a pet to be waiting up to a year for a puppy. I do keep a waiting list, however, by the time a litter has come, the people on my waiting list have found a pup elsewhere, which is quite understandable. In my breed there is however many breeders that don't exhibit, that have litters on the ground constantly.

There was a thread in general forum last week about breeders being rude and not answering emails, which has since been removed because it was getting out of control. One post stated that because I was running a business, I should reply to all emails I replied by saying that it is a misconception that all breeders are in business, as I know that I am NOT, I am an enthusiast and it is my hobby. But because I happened to sell pups on occasions, some people regarded that as being a business.

In my eyes, yes, selling a puppy is a business transaction where money passes hands and they receive a puppy, but to say I'm running a business is to me ludicrous. It was also asked that if I'm not running a business, why do I have a website, before I could answer the thread was removed, my answer would have been to showcase my dogs.

Some emails I answer, others I don't, it all depends on the email. I also go out of my way to help people find a pup from what I consider to an ethical reputable breeder if I don't have anything at the time. Toy Poodles are much exploited, so therefore, I choose to promote breeders that not only health test but also do the right thing by the dog.

What are your thoughts? What do you do when you get an email wanting a pup when you don't have any pups on the ground? How do you respond when you get an email not personally addresses to you that basically asking HOW MUCH?

I'm not a business. I'm an obsessive that is fascinated by certain types of dogs and to her own detriment does not see or recognise geographical distance.

Sometimes I answer emails, sometimes I don't; it depends how busy I am and I guess where I am.

My website is my own online photo album. Pretty hard to lose that when it's kept neatly for you in cyberspace by the powers at troy.

[Mystiqview]

It is a fine line between running a business and a hobby.

I think of it a business purely for the sake of customer service. You do not need to necessarily have the product the customer is wanting (aka a puppy) but that still does not excuse breeders from being rude to their customers.

As enthusiasts, I think it is our role to assist and educate those who are looking at entering our ranks. I know some people will never be educated nor will want to be.

It is no longer a case of the mongrels being either sold cheaply or given away. It is run as a business for these people with their prices in direct competition for pedigree health tested stock. With recent exposure on various documentaries about the "health" of pedigree dogs, only fuels those who breed mongrels with more ammunition to why their crosses are better than our pedigree dogs.

You get a new puppy buyer who may not know anything in contact with a rude breeder or a number of breeders who refuse to answer their emails then they are more than likely going to go the the BYB who is all helpful and keen to assist. That is not something I or am sure any other pedigree dog owner/breeder wants.

We are trying to improve our image in the eyes of "joe public".

[Wags]

Wags

I'm told the ATO view it as a hobby until such time as it becomes the largest income source. Not sure how true this is. However if one was subject to an inspection by the ATO I'm sure the income from sold puppies, however small an amount, would be taken into consideration, particularly if one was self-employed, which is I think why a lot of people set it up under an ABN umbrella.

The ATO will not even consider registering dog breeding as a business, unless the breeder can show substantial income. Breeders on pensions are not required to have business status, and centrelink is not interested in the income from pups which those on pensions breed.

If the breeder has another profitable business (grooming etc) dog breeding can be added to that as a business.

It is not terribly easy to have any agricultural enterprise (including) dogs, assessed as a business by the ATO. It needs substantial income, business like behaviour, designated premises, etc. Owners of big farms or stations easily get business status, owners of 10 acres growing olives have great difficulty in being accepted by the ATO as a business.

Anyone can apply for, and get, an ABN

As registered breeders we are representing the industry/fraternity, whatever you want to call it, and common decency would necessitate an element politeness of some response to contacts

Yes, good manners/common decency would demand that we respond to all enquiries in a timely and polite way, whether we are running a hobby or not. I don't believe dog breeding is an industry - that has terrible connotations for me -- and probably for animal rights too, although I think they view it as an industry already

That's interesting as the ATO accepts my dog breeding as a business, but we are zoned rural with a property number, that may make the difference ?? Mind you they accepted it prior to obtaining the property number which only came with the cattle.