Aidan3 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) I'm looking for the best, safe, readily available odour source that can be kept in a marked location for 6-12 months at a time. They will be kept dry. They must not be attractive to animals, including ants. They will most likely be hidden under rocks and in vegetation. I have a couple of ideas that may or may not work, but I won't mention them just yet, sometimes being given a suggestion can interfere with coming up with a better idea Edited February 7, 2011 by Aidan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Not sure what you want to use it for, but how about ground pepper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Tea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Oil of cloves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Great ideas, thanks everyone. Tea is what I have used in the past, wasn't sure how long it would last or whether it might be attractive to very civilised possums? Delving into the spice rack, pepper or cloves would do the trick. I might put some samples out there and see if the possums get into them. I've just started geocaching. I took my GSD with me yesterday and she started following a track as we neared the cache. It was almost certainly a coincidence (a wallaby had probably been through earlier, or maybe a walker), but it gave me the idea. The caches are usually tricky to find, despite having a GPS co-ordinate. For e.g, one find yesterday was on rocky ground with no remarkable trees. I knew the cache was under rocks at the base of a tree, which wasn't particularly helpful! After sleeping on it, I realised the thing to do would be to train the dogs to target common cache container types on cue. "Sistema" brand plastic containers seem to be the most popular, also tupperware. There are a big variety of container materials used, but most of them are plastic of some sort. Last night I was trying to think of something that would be unique and fulfill all the criteria for a cache, but I realise now this is probably not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 anything organic will degrade or attract wildlife in some respect especially over that period of time. If you want the dog to target on a plastic you have to remember - most other organic smells will heavily permeate the area - all plastics are porous and hence will absorb and exhude other scents which may overwhelm that of the plastic - new plastics usually have a petroleum based film on them from injection moulding. This can be washed off over time so dont use new containers they will smell different. dogs are now being used to find mobile phones. they can locate the sim card, case as well as battery. Take as many old containers as you can (go op shop raiding) and start her on those, then try a chache you know the definite location of. It will be a difficult thing for a green dog to find as what you're asking for is a fairly advanced exercise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 anything organic will degrade or attract wildlife in some respect especially over that period of time.If you want the dog to target on a plastic you have to remember - most other organic smells will heavily permeate the area - all plastics are porous and hence will absorb and exhude other scents which may overwhelm that of the plastic - new plastics usually have a petroleum based film on them from injection moulding. This can be washed off over time so dont use new containers they will smell different. Great info, thanks I just bought a couple of new containers at lunch time... :p will swap them for some old ones at home. dogs are now being used to find mobile phones. they can locate the sim card, case as well as battery. I knew there would have to be a precedent, I'll look that up. I checked the geocache forums, apparently others are doing it but nearly all are either following human scent or believe the dog is sniffing out the cache materials but are probably following human scent (training protocols are non-existent or rely on very good luck/smart dog). I had trained both of my dogs to indicate plastic pegs, but in all cases they had recently been handled and placed by a human so there is a scent trail. The good thing about doing this with a GPSr is that there are tons of aged caches out there in virtually any environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 wash the containers or frankly, go leave them outside in the weather. Under a tree or something, let them get rained on after a good wash in detergent. NSW corrections are doing mobile phone searches, I think others are going to follow suit. If you want to be sure the dog is scenting on the target object do a test. 3 boxes with lids and a couple of holes punched in the top. Put the container in one of them and wipe your hands on the inside of the other two as well. If the dog indicates on the other two or is confused and keeps circling around you know that it cannot distinguish residuals or you have been inadvertantly training your dog onto human scent not just the peg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 wash the containers or frankly, go leave them outside in the weather. Under a tree or something, let them get rained on after a good wash in detergent. Will do, good idea. NSW corrections are doing mobile phone searches, I think others are going to follow suit. I heard some talk about that in the prison down here, it's a big problem apparently. I know someone who seemed to have no trouble updating his facebook page from inside, apparently corrective services don't routinely check this sort of thing. He was also running a business If you want to be sure the dog is scenting on the target object do a test. 3 boxes with lids and a couple of holes punched in the top. Put the container in one of them and wipe your hands on the inside of the other two as well. If the dog indicates on the other two or is confused and keeps circling around you know that it cannot distinguish residuals or you have been inadvertantly training your dog onto human scent not just the peg Good exercise, thanks! I was planting foreign objects, one of my dogs was getting pretty good at discriminating but it's been at least a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I find that glass jars that had promite or chutney in them, hold the smell for a very long time, ie even after they've been washed in near boiling water. My dog can find (old) baseballs quite easily. And carobs - but rodents like carobs too. And she's good on the wooly things eg ugg boots. I am thinking it would be very useful if she could "indicate" termites reliably. I also find that rubber - eg kongs, and new plastic anything - especially the microban containers - smell toxic - for years in some cases. I've got a very old and stinky but extremely clean plastic jug you can have. I really should toss it out. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 After sleeping on it, I realised the thing to do would be to train the dogs to target common cache container types on cue. "Sistema" brand plastic containers seem to be the most popular, also tupperware. There are a big variety of container materials used, but most of them are plastic of some sort. Last night I was trying to think of something that would be unique and fulfill all the criteria for a cache, but I realise now this is probably not necessary. Gee that sounds like fun!! My son and I occasionally used to mark a spot with our GPS usually when out walking the dogs and then try to find the same spot later on and see what's changed (vegetation etc) . I wonder if having different (to yours) residual human scent on them may be of benefit as it could possibly be a concommitant odour with some of the caches?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I wonder if having different (to yours) residual human scent on them may be of benefit as it could possibly be a concommitant odour with some of the caches?? From browsing the geocaching forums, I think that is what most of the dogs are scenting. There is no shortage of caches out there, even in unpopulated areas, so you could pick and choose ones that had been more recently found by others if that was your aim, I think that would be much easier to train for too. Some of the dogs seem to be figuring it out on their own, without any training. Check it out, m-j, I think you'd enjoy. Go to www.geocaching.com and put your postcode in the search box on the main page. Then when you get the list of caches, click on "view in Google Maps" for a visual representation. It's a real eye-opener. The thing that really turned me off tracking with dogs was meeting up regularly with others to lay and age tracks. I do lots of stuff with my dogs, but I do it on my time, whenever I get the chance. I can see this being something that I can just fit in to my schedule, involve my family and my dogs, and we all get something out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I find that glass jars that had promite or chutney in them, hold the smell for a very long time, ie even after they've been washed in near boiling water. They do, don't they! Even after you've made jam or chutney, you can still smell the promite. Thanks for the offer on the jug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I wonder if having different (to yours) residual human scent on them may be of benefit as it could possibly be a concommitant odour with some of the caches?? From browsing the geocaching forums, I think that is what most of the dogs are scenting. There is no shortage of caches out there, even in unpopulated areas, so you could pick and choose ones that had been more recently found by others if that was your aim, I think that would be much easier to train for too. Some of the dogs seem to be figuring it out on their own, without any training. Check it out, m-j, I think you'd enjoy. Go to www.geocaching.com and put your postcode in the search box on the main page. Then when you get the list of caches, click on "view in Google Maps" for a visual representation. It's a real eye-opener. The thing that really turned me off tracking with dogs was meeting up regularly with others to lay and age tracks. I do lots of stuff with my dogs, but I do it on my time, whenever I get the chance. I can see this being something that I can just fit in to my schedule, involve my family and my dogs, and we all get something out of it. I think you may have started something , there are heaps around here. We'll dust off the GPS's and will probably be off hunting for the one in our tiny one horse town on the w/e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I think you may have started something , there are heaps around here. We'll dust off the GPS's and will probably be off hunting for the one in our tiny one horse town on the w/e. I've only done three so far but I already know I'm hooked. Corvus might be able to explain the addiction using Panksepp's SEEKing circuit I saw a Peregrine Falcon this weekend while searching for a cache, in an area I frequently walk the dogs, but on the other side of the hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The birds of prey are my favourites along with parrots. The logbook you need to sign, is that online or with the cache? If it is with the cache, the paper may be a reasonably consistant odour to train the dog to?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 The birds of prey are my favourites along with parrots. The logbook you need to sign, is that online or with the cache? If it is with the cache, the paper may be a reasonably consistant odour to train the dog to?? There is always a logbook and pen or pencil, also a note explaining what it is should a "muggle" find it. Most of the caches around here are inside a sistema container, in fact it doesn't seem worth the effort to train for anything else except a sistema with a notepad inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 i wouldnt confuse the issue by adding a notepad. What is a constant with the caches - the plastic box. What happens if the book is missing, waterlogged, mouldy etc? Your dog wont indicate on the article because you want plastic AND paper. When you do scent detection aim for the KISS principle ... keep it simple. The more you try and add to it the less chance you have of a strong indication from the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 i wouldnt confuse the issue by adding a notepad. What is a constant with the caches - the plastic box. What happens if the book is missing, waterlogged, mouldy etc? Good point, that isn't uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourjays Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Most caches are plastic containers - around here the Sistema ones are popular, or else micros which tend to be magnetic of some sort. They'd be the most popular kind of caches, you do get all sorts of things from Ammo cans to plastic tubes and at the moment, there is some 'race' with garden gnomes even! But training for sistema's would work well I imagine. I will show this thread to my hubby - he is an avid cacher (okay, fanatic from my point of view LOL), he's done over 1000 now and I am sure he will have some ideas for you, he regularly takes one of our dogs out with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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