Kaffy Magee Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I was under the impression(and I think so are alot of people) you could not show a dog in normal classes that had had a vasectomy. But I found out yesterday you can. Did anyone else know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I figured you could because the key criteria is '2 normal descended testes' isnt it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMonaro Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 very sad if ppl are doing this........ it kind of adds a bit more to the other thread on here about ppl cheating...... to me showing a dog that has a vascetomy is "cheating" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaffy Magee Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) Yes, that is right Flaves I also rang dogs QLD, after reading their rules and regulations and asked them and they said you can because a vasectomy is reversible. How is it cheating MM, it is not enhancing the dog in any way, not giving it any advantage at all? It cant be cheating if its not against the rules. ETA: I do not show a dog that has had a vsaectomy, however I dont have an issue with those that do, as it does not give them an advantage in any way. What about dogs that have their testes but are naturally sterile? Are they cheating too? Edited February 5, 2011 by Kaffy Magee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Or using superloin? My dog is entire and has not had one either, but i dont have an issue with those that do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) You can show them but it is seriously frowned upon in the same manner as people showing desexed bitches. With a vasectomy the testicles are still present and as per breed standards those who have the surgery will still have 2 discernible testicles. So unless you don't say anything about it who is the wiser. Medically sterile (Ie chemical or vasectomy) versus naturally ocurring sterility (Ie genetics or illness) are two entirely different things as one is done with the owners specific intention of preventing a dog from being used for breeding. There was a thread regarding chemical sterilising a while back that argued this point but the overall consensus from those that participated was dogs that were medically sterilised shouldn't be in the ring. As for those who are naturally sterilized you aren't going to know until you either collect them or they are used at stud at which time I would think most would do the right thing. ETA - If the dog has been medically sterilized they can still compete for the title of Neuter Champion. Edited February 5, 2011 by ravensmyst00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMonaro Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Yes, that is right Flaves I also rang dogs QLD, after reading their rules and regulations and asked them and they said you can because a vasectomy is reversible.How is it cheating MM, it is not enhancing the dog in any way, not giving it any advantage at all? It cant be cheating if its not against the rules. ETA: I do not show a dog that has had a vsaectomy, however I dont have an issue with those that do, as it does not give them an advantage in any way. What about dogs that have their testes but are naturally sterile? Are they cheating too? Well I for one consider dog showing is to showcase "breeding" dogs. If a dog has a vasectomy cos it is sterile - then its not IMO lines suitable for breeding and should not be in the showring. There are probably dogs being shown, that will never be bred from because they are naturally sterile, and who would know ? Doesnt mean I have to think that it is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Why would you give a sterile dog a vasectomy? Not every fertile show dog will be bred from, so where is the problem of showing a dog that won't be bred from? doesn't mean the lines are 'bad' or that other close relatives are also unsuitable for breeding. I like to see as many close family members as possible when looking for either a future show dog or breeding lines to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) <Well I for one consider dog showing is to showcase "breeding" dogs. > Not wanting to go all OT on an interesting topic....If conformation showing is ONLY for Breeding dogs that could just explain the huge drop in numbers in the show ring. One of the reasons for bringing in Neut class is to support people to show when they do not want to breed. I am not a breeder - I am a puppy buyer. I want to show my dogs but I live in the inner city and (shock horror) use off lead parks Undexed dogs are just too much bother in my environment. But I love a dog show. Currently I manage to keep them entire until the title and then it is quick smart off to the vet and it as been the end of their careers. At least now we can continue to show. The vasectomy idea is a new one on me! edited for: spellunk Edited February 8, 2011 by Meea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaffy Magee Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Ravensmyst, who seriously frowns upon it? There are going to be people who dont like it but tough titties its not against the rules, like showing a desexed bitch is. DOgs being chemically castrated are a different kettle of fish imo. From what I have read the chemical causes the testes to shrink, therefor not being "apparently normal" anymore and also alters behaviour as they are no longer producing hormones, where as a dog that has a vasectomy is exactly the same in looks and behaviour as any other male that hasnt had a vasectomy. There are so many ordinary dogs out in the show ring or dogs that have health problems that are being bred from I hardly think dogs being shown with vasectomies is something for people to upset about. It doesnt make any sense to me why someone would frown on it, when it gives the dog no advantage and is not against the rules whatsoever. As for a naturally sterile dog I dont have a problem with them being shown either. So what, they can not produce, it should not matter, considering it is a conformation show and not a show to see who can produce the most puppies. MissMonaro nobody said anything about giving a dog a vasectomy becasue it was sterile, that would be kind of pointless. The dogs that are being shown that have had vasectomies or are naturally sterile are being judged on their conformation, people can see what is being produced by breeders, surely that is better than having nice conformationally sound dogs locked away in peoples back yards because they cant be shown. Not everyone wants to breed but would love to show. I have had a male dobe in the past and was forever paranoid he would get to one of my Bullmastiff bitches. I have never had any interest to breed dobes, I just love showing them. If I was ever in that position again, knowing what I know now, I would have him collected and give him a vasectomy. Meea, a dog that has had a vasectomy will still behave like a male that hasnt, they just cant sire a litter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 This is way OT but interesting given the topic. I've heard of pedigree cat breeders who keep a vasectomised tom on the premises to service the queens they want to keep entire but aren't wanting to breed from at the time. Entire female cats have to mate or they will get pyometra by about their 3rd or 4th call, so some breeders save a tom destined for the green dream, get him vasectomised and have him keep the screaming ladies happy. Certainly a nice job for a man cat if they can get it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMonaro Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If conformation showing is ONLY for Breeding dogs that could just explain the huge drop in numbers in the show ring. Dog shows have always been for entire dogs - so I dont think that has anything to do with the drop in numbers in the show ring. Perhaps it has to do with the nasty ppl around the showring. Since we started showing, we've seen quite a lot of new ppl come and go in that time. Everyone is your friend when you are new, but start winning and then its amazing the change in some ppl. Plus there is the costs involved - entries, petrol etc. The dog limits on how many dogs ppl can own etc makes it hard. When the oldies are retiring and you cant have any more until they go.... then what do u do ? The Friday night shows - well that makes it hard for ppl that work to attend these shows - so a drop in numbers. The fact that we can't camp or stay over at the grounds any more for double shows means that ppl that would drive down for the weekend, now don't bother. One of the reasons for bringing in Neut class is to support people to show when they do not want to breed. Well then all the dogs with vasectomies or that are naturally sterile could go in the neuter classes then. MissMonaro nobody said anything about giving a dog a vasectomy becasue it was sterile, that would be kind of pointless. The dogs that are being shown that have had vasectomies or are naturally sterile are being judged on their conformation, people can see what is being produced by breeders, surely that is better than having nice conformationally sound dogs locked away in peoples back yards because they cant be shown. Not everyone wants to breed but would love to show. Yeh well whatever....see above..... nice dogs in peoples yards can be shown in neuter classes.... if ppl are that passionate about wanting to do it, then support the neuter classes or keep your dog entire. Next thing is people will be wanting to show dogs that are on the Limited Register - cos then they'll be claiming its discrimination yaddy yaddy.... what next...cavoodles, labradoodles, mutts ? There are plenty of activities for "nice" dogs to do without turning a dog show into a "pet" show. Where do you draw the line ?? What if you are a newbie to the show ring..... you come out with your dog - who just happens to be an outstanding example of the breed and all of a sudden ppl are approaching you wanting to use your dog at stud ? Just maybe, your thoughts on never wanting to breed may be changed and just maybe, you'd love to see some puppies from your beloved following in their dads footsteps...and maybe, it might help to encourage or increase the rapidly declining purebred dog world. Breed clubs could hold fun days....thats what mine used to do. You'd go along with your dogs, there were activities to do.... we'd have obedience demonstrations, agility courses set up, flyball demos, retrieving demos, drug detection dogs, and fun games to do with your dogs - you could chat with breeders etc.... thats where you get to see what breeders are producing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 <Dog shows have always been for entire dogs -> Gee and when was a safe desexing operation for dogs invented.... ;) Lets move a little with the times. I agree totally with you about the environment and costs etc contributing but add that to the fact that a one dog person with a good dog is forced to have to deal with an undesexed one just to be able to show - that must be a factor as well. It certainly is for me and I have been showing (one dog at a time) for years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [What if you are a newbie to the show ring..... you come out with your dog - who just happens to be an outstanding example of the breed and all of a sudden ppl are approaching you wanting to use your dog at stud ? Just maybe, your thoughts on never wanting to breed may be changed and just maybe, you'd love to see some puppies from your beloved following in their dads footsteps...and maybe, it might help to encourage or increase the rapidly declining purebred dog world. Well if that happened and the dog had previously had a vasectomy a trip to the vet could reverse it and hey presto, puppy time ;) And no, a dog with a vasectomy or who was naturally sterile could not compete in neuter classes as male dogs in neuter classes shouldn't have testes ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 These two links are in regards to the topic of showing a desexed dog to gain their title as well as judges responses in regards to showing dogs that had been chemically castrated (put vasectomies in the same category. Showing Desexed Bitch to Title Judges Responses Re Chemical Castration I totally agree with the response from one judge regarding showing a chemically castrated dog… (mersonmalinois @ 21st Apr 2008 - 07:02 AM) Response #2: "You are more than welcome to quote me, Susie....what a shame that this goes on!" "Since dog shows are a forum to evaluate breeding stock, why would someone want to show an male that cannot reproduce? I find this an interesting phenomenon." I totally agree with the judge and his comment - why show a dog that cannot reproduce? As for reversing a vasectomy – if someone want to spends the thousands (leading up to tens of thousands of dollars) on a vet that is a specialist in microsurgery with no guarantees the reversal will allow the dog to reproduce then so be it - when that vasectomy has been successfully reversed then by all means bring them back into the show ring to compete against entire dogs. Thanks to the Neutered Champion Title people with desexed or sterilised dogs can compete in the ring for conformation purposes - so there is no reason for them to be in the show ring against entire breeding stock. Also someone mentioned that a dog that has a vasectomy CAN’T be shown as a Neuter – they can because they are issued with a Certificate of Sterilization from the Vet just as they would if they had been Neutered - testicles or not. Kaffy - we will just agree to disagree on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaffy Magee Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Ravensmyst, its no good showing me topics regarding the showing of desexed dogs or chemically castrated dogs because we are talking about vasectomies and they are not the same as castrations or chemical castrations. As said before Castration affects the appearance and behaviour of the dog as does chemical castration, vasectomy does not, so can not be classed as the same. As I also said before, dog shows are conformation shows becasue they are judged on their conformation, not their ability to breed. In my rules and regulations book it states " Neuter: Any male or female dog that has been desexed either by castration or ovarian hysterectomy and is rendered infertile. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE VASECTOMIES (Neuters may compete in veteran class or optional neuter class 15,16,17,18- see rule 112)" Therefore a dog that has had a vasectomy can not compete in neuter classes as it is not considered a neuter. And for the record "Entire Male Dog means for the purpose of these rules a male dog which once having become 6 months of age, exhibits two apparently normal testicals fully descended in the scrotum" (a castrated or chemically castrated dog does not a dog with a vasectomy does) and "Non Entire: means a male dog which is either chryptorchid or monorchid" (a dog with a vasectomy is neither) So what it comes down to is it is perfectly acceptable to show a dog that has had a vasectomy and whether you or anyone else doesnt like it is a moot point because its not against the rules. Despite what it may seem Im really not that hung up on the issue, however I find it odd that people want to argue that it is wrong when clearly according to the rules it is not. Im not disagreeing about anything the rules are what they are, there is nothing to disagree about :rolleyes: Edited February 10, 2011 by Kaffy Magee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 A dog with a vasectomy is no more a neuter than a man with a vasectomy is a eunuch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Rules are open to interpretation. And I will continue to argue that a vasectomy does fall into the same catagory as castration as it prevents a dog from being used for breeding purposes the same as neutering and chemically castrating. But as I said I agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 A dog with a vasectomy is no more a neuter than a man with a vasectomy is a eunuch. A man with a vasectomy is unable to procreate just the same as a eunich is unable to procreate. Being able to reverse one has no baring in this argument. If this argument is based purely on whether or not testicles are present then what would be the difference if a neuter did compete but had the silcon implants would you still feel the same way about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Neutering removes not only testicles and the ability to pro-create but it also removes the bodies ability to create sex hormones and effectively neutralises the gender. It's more than just taking away the ability to breed. Neutering a male dog takes away some male characteristics.....in my breed it takes away the big ruff of hair around the neck, neutered males just don't grow it. It also takes away other dogs ability to recognise it as a male. They just recognise it as a dog. A vasectomy keeps all that intact, it just blocks the path of the sperm. A eunuch is not only sterile, they also don't have a lot of male characteristics........they have less muscle development, smoother, less hairy skin, higher voices and less masculine movement and strength. Edited February 10, 2011 by GayleK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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