Puppies Playing - Is It Too Rough?

[Maxarch]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here, but I have been reading alot of other posts to try and get some advice and if you could give me any it would be much apprecitated.

We have 2 little puppies, a 14week old male Laborador which we have had since he was 8 weeks old, he is very very playful and demands alot of attention.

We also now have, a 9 week old male cocker spaniel, which we only got 4 days ago. The cocker spaniel is a merry little thing and not afraid of anything, he really seems to have no fear. We got 2 puppies close in age because we wanted them to grow up together and be company for each other during the day. We give them alot of attention, training, exercise etc either together or one on one time.

My problem is, is that these 2 pups play all the time together and mostly get along but in the last 2 days the play fighting seems to have been taken up a notch and not only is it getting very vocal (from the cocker spaniel) but it looks like the Lab doesn't know when to stop.

They stay outside together during the day and they have never cried to come inside and at night or during the day when I come home to check on them they are normally alway sleeping near each other.

What I have noticed is it looks like the Lab is abit jealous now that there is another puppy here. We give them both equal amounts of attention and the Lab also goes to puppy school once a week, which he is like the model student, doesn't misbehave or play too roughly with other puppies there. He can already sit, drop and stay and is now learning to come, although he has stopped listen a little now there is a new puppy around but we just need to keep up with his training.

The Lab only yelp/barks when he is trying to get the attention of the cocker spaniel, otherwise you would hear a peep out of him, but he pounces and jumps on the cocker alot, he also pins him to the ground or just plain sits on him most of the time. I can see the cocker is fine with it most times, and is happy to play, even though he sounds like he is being hurt, his tail is wagging and if I break them up because I thought he got hurt, once I let him go the cocker just chases after the Lab to play and it starts all over again, but there are times, like this morning when they were outside playing for 15-20mins then all of a sudden the Lab had hold of the cockers ear, like it was a toy and way playing tug-of-war with his ear, the cocker yelped, alot, but the Lab didn't or wouldn't let go now matter how much the cocker yelped until I yelled at him and separated them by putting the cocker inside and left the Lab outside. The cocker was fine and just sat in his basket and the Lab i think knew he had done something wrong because he mellowed out really quickly and after 15mins of separation i put the cocker back outside and everything was fine, that sat together with the Lab licking the cocker.

I suppose I just don't know if I'm worrying over nothing or if I should try to break them up or separate them more often... I'm worried that with this behavior now will it progress further and will these puppies turn into agressive dogs or is it just puppies being puppies and play/fighting together?

[Keira&Phoenix]

You definitely need to implement a time out for them. Separating them but leaving the Lab to have full run of the yard doesn't really teach him anything.

Are you crate training? If so best thing to do when you feel it is getting too ruff is to grab the instigator, say "too bad" and place it in the crate or if you don't have a crate a very small room (ie: toilet room) and leave them there for 1 - 2 minutes alone as a time out. Only let it out if the pup is being quiet and not barking/crying etc. And then maybe keep them separated for another 10 - 15 minutes as calm down time. This method is called reward removal and the pup will quickly learn not to be too ruff. Polite play is something all dogs should learn, if all dogs played politely dog parks would be fantastic.

Another good thing to do during play time is have leashes attached to something outside away from each other and every now and then when excitement levels get to high attach 1 pup to each leash and get them to sit, give them treats and let them calm down a bit before allowing them to play again. Or if you have two people one person each grab a pup hold them between the legs get them to sit and then once calm allow them to play again.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[kirst_goldens]

does this not make the crate a punishment place though? i seen people use crates like this and i alwasy wondered if it changed the way dogs looked at their crate?

[aussielover]

you must be a sucker for punishment lol! Two baby puppies at once! Do they have names?

You need to separate the lab puppy when he gets too rough. A crate is ideal but you can also use a small room like the laundary.

The lab puppy could stress out the cocker puppy and may cause an aggressive reaction or fight when they are older if you don't intervene. Lab puppies don't know when to stop playing generally. It is up to us, as owners, to let them know when enough is enough.

It also sounds like the lab puppy needs to be taught some bite inhibition, usually the owners continue this when the pup has left the litter.

It may also be important to you to make sure they puppies don't become more bonded to each other than to you. You need to spend lots of time training and playing with them individually, which it sounds like you are doing.

Good lUck

[aussielover]

does this not make the crate a punishment place though? i seen people use crates like this and i alwasy wondered if it changed the way dogs looked at their crate?

I think as long as the crate has already been established as a safe, quiet place it is ok. But yeah, if you just throw them in there every time they are naughty with no toys/treats etc then they will have a negative association with it.

Once my puppy was crate trained and knew that the crate was a "quiet place" I would put her in there for a time out when she needed to calm down.

[Maxarch]

you must be a sucker for punishment lol! Two baby puppies at once! Do they have names?

You need to separate the lab puppy when he gets too rough. A crate is ideal but you can also use a small room like the laundary.

The lab puppy could stress out the cocker puppy and may cause an aggressive reaction or fight when they are older if you don't intervene. Lab puppies don't know when to stop playing generally. It is up to us, as owners, to let them know when enough is enough.

It also sounds like the lab puppy needs to be taught some bite inhibition, usually the owners continue this when the pup has left the litter.

It may also be important to you to make sure they puppies don't become more bonded to each other than to you. You need to spend lots of time training and playing with them individually, which it sounds like you are doing.

Good lUck

Haha yes a few people has said that about having 2 puppies but they aren't so bad. Yes, sorry I didn't put their names on my first post, our Labs name is Max and the little cocker spaniel is Archie.

We don't crate our pups, I'm not too sure of thr process etc, but both puppies stayed inside in a little doggy pen for 2 nights, they both cried/whined none stop the whole night and then by the 3rd night we put them outside and have never heard a peep from them since, obviously Max we've had longer and is always really happy to be outside rather than inside while Archie is happy either way, just not at night being put in a pen But I will give the laundry a try if the play/fighting gets too much again and see how that goes. I am really worried Archie will become a bit agressive when he's older so I will keep on it and not be blase about it

They both spend all day outside, I'm not too sure how they play/fight while we're at work but they seem fine and very happy to see us when we get home. They just seem to fight more when we outside with them or if Archie has been inside for a little while and Max has been left outside, its like he is bullying him abit and def doesn't know when to stop.

All in all though, they are good pups but yes you are right, we are very aware that they could bond more with each other so we are very conscious of having alot of individual time with them so this doesn't happen.

Thanks for your help

[Keira&Phoenix]

does this not make the crate a punishment place though? i seen people use crates like this and i alwasy wondered if it changed the way dogs looked at their crate?

I think as long as the crate has already been established as a safe, quiet place it is ok. But yeah, if you just throw them in there every time they are naughty with no toys/treats etc then they will have a negative association with it.

Once my puppy was crate trained and knew that the crate was a "quiet place" I would put her in there for a time out when she needed to calm down.

Hi Kirst,

As Aussie said. Which is why I asked if they are crate training . A laundry or small toilet room works just as well, or OP could buy a puppy play pen and set that up and use it in a similar manner.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[Maxarch]

You definitely need to implement a time out for them. Separating them but leaving the Lab to have full run of the yard doesn't really teach him anything.

Are you crate training? If so best thing to do when you feel it is getting too ruff is to grab the instigator, say "too bad" and place it in the crate or if you don't have a crate a very small room (ie: toilet room) and leave them there for 1 - 2 minutes alone as a time out. Only let it out if the pup is being quiet and not barking/crying etc. And then maybe keep them separated for another 10 - 15 minutes as calm down time. This method is called reward removal and the pup will quickly learn not to be too ruff. Polite play is something all dogs should learn, if all dogs played politely dog parks would be fantastic.

Another good thing to do during play time is have leashes attached to something outside away from each other and every now and then when excitement levels get to high attach 1 pup to each leash and get them to sit, give them treats and let them calm down a bit before allowing them to play again. Or if you have two people one person each grab a pup hold them between the legs get them to sit and then once calm allow them to play again.

Thank you for your reply, giving them a time out seems the best option and I didn't realise that by leaving the Lab (Max) in the yard he wasn't learning anything, but now I will do it differently.

We don't do the crate training, mainly because I am not too sure how to do this, but I will give the small room a try as you suggested, Max is a quick learner so I don't think it will take too long and at least then Archie (cocker spaniel) will have a break from all the rough housing.

Thanks

[aussielover]

Max is an awesome name for a lab

I want to call my next black lab Max.

[flux]

This happened a bit between my two dogs, one a young pup the other just over a year old. Surprisingly it was the young pup who was far too rough on the older one. At first I thought it was the older dog being tolerant of the pup and just thought that "letting nature takes it's course" would sort the pecking order out. We got a behavourist in for some help with the new pup on a different issue and mentioned the "rough play". Best advice ever - If YOU don't like it, stop it. It doesn't matter if it's actually quite a simple reason as in "I don't like to hear teeth clacking together" at the end of the day your house, your rules! This "clicked" for me and I realised (I smiled when I read your post, I was the same!) that my own instincts going "oo ahh isn't that a bit too rough? They don't seem hurt but.." were probably very correct and are predicting a subtle escalation in behaviour that would inevitably lead to someone getting hurt. So, with this wisdom, If I felt concerned, I don't care if the dogs are fine and not hurt and maybe just a little hyper, I break it up right away. It is brilliant your lab calms down right away after, he clearly gets the message. More of this and dogs will soon learn that there is a limit to play roughness - set by yourself.

Obviously too, walking, toys and bones help wear them out and avoid intense play

[Maxarch]

This happened a bit between my two dogs, one a young pup the other just over a year old. Surprisingly it was the young pup who was far too rough on the older one. At first I thought it was the older dog being tolerant of the pup and just thought that "letting nature takes it's course" would sort the pecking order out. We got a behavourist in for some help with the new pup on a different issue and mentioned the "rough play". Best advice ever - If YOU don't like it, stop it. It doesn't matter if it's actually quite a simple reason as in "I don't like to hear teeth clacking together" at the end of the day your house, your rules! This "clicked" for me and I realised (I smiled when I read your post, I was the same!) that my own instincts going "oo ahh isn't that a bit too rough? They don't seem hurt but.." were probably very correct and are predicting a subtle escalation in behaviour that would inevitably lead to someone getting hurt. So, with this wisdom, If I felt concerned, I don't care if the dogs are fine and not hurt and maybe just a little hyper, I break it up right away. It is brilliant your lab calms down right away after, he clearly gets the message. More of this and dogs will soon learn that there is a limit to play roughness - set by yourself.

Obviously too, walking, toys and bones help wear them out and avoid intense play

Thanks so much for your reply flux. It seems to be escalating alot now, what once was happy playing now seems to end in very loud and very rough play so now we separate them when it gets really bad, Max our lab calms down straight away he's really good at understanding but Archie the cocker spaniel just seems to keep on going and won't leave Max alone sometimes, if its not one that won't leave it alone its the other. I've tried putting Archie in the spare bathroom by himself for a few minutes to calm down, I've heard you shouldn't let them out until they are quiet but all he did was whine and work himself up so much that after half an hour I went in there to try and calm him, then he sulked and wouldn't come near me for an hour or so... I'm not sure that was a good thing to of done.

I think we're going to need to get someone in to help us because I am worried that one of them will get hurt especially as it seems to be getting rougher and rougher (and louder and louder) and they are biting, with no agression (yet), its ok when we are home to break it up and calm them down but I don't know how bad it gets while we're at work.

We give them alot of play exercise, and Max goes to puppy preschool at the moment he's pretty well socialised, I'm trying to get Archie into one starting soon, but we can't walk them yet because they aren't fully vacc for another month but heres hoping once we can walk them in a park etc they will be alot more worn out and hopefully things will get better

[Miranda]

Rivalry isn't uncommon between two puppies of the same sex who are also of a similar age, however yours are still very young, normally it doesn't surface until they're a bit older. I always recommend that puppy buyers get one of each sex. However two puppies the same age are going to be a handful regardless of sex.

[poodlefan]

The Lab is going to weigh at least twice as much as the Cocker. I'd be worried about the rough play ending up in injury to the smaller dog.

Both will be too young for a lot of onlead walking for some months yet. I'd be cautious about exercise and rough play having an long term impact on growing bodies.

Edited February 7, 2011 by poodlefan

[flux]

Glad my post helped. Our quick visit by the behavourist cost us about $50 (Advertised at about $80 for a brief one-hour session, he was a nice guy!) and was worth about $250. I highly recommend it. They will probably help sort out what's going on exactly (in ways a forum simply can't) - if this is serious stuff, or an easy fix. Riley our rowdy pup was very different, he also is not the type to calm down "on his own" but interestingly, you clap your hands at him and grumble "oi you, settle down." and he responds. Our other dog would have just taken this as "YAY I GOT ATTENTION NOW I'LL NEVER STOP!!" - this is where the behavourist really helped point out different ways of dealing with the situation depending on the situation. (ha ha as well as offering tips to getting Riley to learn to calm down while he's on his own!). Good luck

[julesm]

Hello there,

I was reading your post and thinking how interesting because we too have two little male puppies, one a golden retriever (who we got first at 8 weeks old) and then a cocker spaniel who we got 3 weeks after the GR. Frankie (the cocker) is very vocal and fearless just like you described your pup.

We had the fighting problems too. I think it also doesn't help that the little cockers can be so vocal so you think they are killing each other til you see the tail wagging!! We were really worried about it in the first few weeks, so we took a video of them playing rough and showed it to our puppy school teacher (she was wonderful and very knowledgeable) and she assured us that it was playing, not fighting, but she thought it was a bit rough.

The way we got around it was that if it was all getting a bit too heated we would yell "HEEYYYYY!!!!" pick one of them up (whoever was closest usually) and popped them into the spare room for about five mins. We did that pretty consistently for about 2 weeks and now whenever we shout "HHHEEYYY" they seem to settle down. If you are worried about them yelping just leave them in the time out for about five mins and let them out.

They have settled down a lot now (they are about 4 and 5 months old) but still have a go of it every now again. We put it down to sibling rivelry and getting out some pent up energy.

Glad to hear there are other crazy people out there with two puppies at the same time!

[Maxarch]

Hello there,

I was reading your post and thinking how interesting because we too have two little male puppies, one a golden retriever (who we got first at 8 weeks old) and then a cocker spaniel who we got 3 weeks after the GR. Frankie (the cocker) is very vocal and fearless just like you described your pup.

We had the fighting problems too. I think it also doesn't help that the little cockers can be so vocal so you think they are killing each other til you see the tail wagging!! We were really worried about it in the first few weeks, so we took a video of them playing rough and showed it to our puppy school teacher (she was wonderful and very knowledgeable) and she assured us that it was playing, not fighting, but she thought it was a bit rough.

The way we got around it was that if it was all getting a bit too heated we would yell "HEEYYYYY!!!!" pick one of them up (whoever was closest usually) and popped them into the spare room for about five mins. We did that pretty consistently for about 2 weeks and now whenever we shout "HHHEEYYY" they seem to settle down. If you are worried about them yelping just leave them in the time out for about five mins and let them out.

They have settled down a lot now (they are about 4 and 5 months old) but still have a go of it every now again. We put it down to sibling rivelry and getting out some pent up energy.

Glad to hear there are other crazy people out there with two puppies at the same time!

Hi julesm, thanks for your post. What a coincidence that we are both "crazy" people with 2 puppies 3 weeks apart in age and one is a cocker spaniel ;) lol

It's great to hear though that you had a similar problem with the playing. We had spoken with our someone who is a dog handler and he suggested the same thing of giving them a time out and we have started doing this now the last few days and we can already see a difference. We still have Archie crying alot if we pop him in the bathroom for a few minutes for timeout but I find with him, if Max is put in the bathroom and Archie left outside he calms down straight away because I think for him he hates to be left outside when he knows people are inside, so it seems to do the same thing as the bathroom does for Max, fingers crossed in a few weeks time things will have improved.

I've got a query for you though, we had Max for 3 weeks prior to Archie coming along and Max was practically toilet trained and would very rarely make a mess inside and never on the concrete outside but now that we have Archie, and we are in the process of trying to toilet train him so he has accidents sometimes inside or on the concrete outside (especially if its raining, which seems to be alot at the moment) we have noticed that Max now seems to be following in Archies footsteps and weeing inside or on the concrete when he normally didn't do that... Did you have a similar problem when you got your cocker with your GR??

We also found that Max seems to deliberately bully Archie or push him out of the way if we go to pat him, did you have this too?

How are your puppies now, we've only had Archie for nearly 2 weeks now so its early days for us still.

[julesm]

Hi there,

Glad to hear we could be of some help.

We had pretty much the same situation with the toilet training. Our GR (Nelson) practically came toilet trained while our cocker (Frankie) has not been introduced to toilet training at all. Actually he had not even seen grass until the day we picked him up, but that's another story...

Unfortunately there seemed to be no easy fix here for us apart from ramping up the toilet training, setting the microwave timer every 10-15 minutes and taking them out. Frankie hates wet grass too, its quite frustrating! We found feeding him his dinner on the grass, even if its wet helped him to get used to the grass. And keeping the grass short also helps.

We have the opposite problem in terms of attention. Frankie will literally launch himself at Nelson if we are giving Nelson pats and attention. Haven't managed to fix that one yet. Have just been trying to ignore Frankie when he launches himself at Nelson. It hasn't really been working that well though yet, maybe he will grow out of it.

They are going really well now, and they are the best of friends. We have this nice reserve near where we live where they can go exploring together off leash and they love it. My mum calls them Milo and Otis. Once they get through this initial stage, yours wont be able to be apart from each other!!

Not that I am any kind of expert but let me know if you have any more questions. Seems like we are in such similar situations except I am a few months down the track

[Maxarch]

Thanks julesm, I'm happy to say the "timeout" room has worked brilliantly on both puppies, they have settled down so much now. The only thing I can't seem to stop or don't really know how to except ignore it, is Archie whining at the backdoor everytime he sees us or when he wants to come inside, but I'm sure that will come with time.

We have noticed is the last few days the puppies sleep right next to each other now, they are quickly becoming best friends.