Agility Advice Please

[raineth]

I take my big dog Digby to agility.

I just do it to spend time with him and have some fun with him.

I don't want to compete - I'm too busy with kids etc.

I'm really happy to have their instruction. There are a couple of things that i want to do my own way though.

For example because Digby is a giant dog and we're new to it all, I don't really want him jumping 600 all the time; I just want the jumps to be just high enough for him to need to jump.

Also I wanted to experiment with him learning to weave using my hand as a target (he targets fine). But the instructors just basically said "no" and if i go to do they say "don't do it that way!"

These people do know a lot more about agility than I do - that is a given.

But at the same time - I have been clear that I don't want to compete. And even though I'm new to agility I think people shouldn't mind if I want to do some things my own way.

Anyway i am all filled with doubts now.

I don't know whether to hold my ground with these things.

Or whether I should just do what I'm told by the instructors. Afterall I know they know more about agility than I do.

But at the same time I can't see why it would bother them for me to experiment a little with different methods?

afterall if i fail they get to laugh at me

[Vickie]

Where are you training? And how old is digby?

If you do not wish to compete, I don't see a problem with you jumping him lower (but I wouldn't jump him too low)

as for the weaving, if you really want to do it your way, I would train him to weave at home & skip the weaves at training until he is weaving independently. Once he is weaving, noone will care how he learnt.

Not all instructors at a club level are great trainers/handlers but many are.

From the perspective of someone who has done a lot of instructing, it is really hard to get people to see the bigger picture sometimes. I always encourage people to train the same way, whether or not they wish to compete.

I like to train with a high degree of motivation b/c I believe it is more enjoyable for the dog. IMHO That enjoyment is paramount regardless of whether you ever wish to compete or not.

[Agility Dogs]

I take my big dog Digby to agility.

I just do it to spend time with him and have some fun with him.

I don't want to compete - I'm too busy with kids etc.

I'm really happy to have their instruction. There are a couple of things that i want to do my own way though.

For example because Digby is a giant dog and we're new to it all, I don't really want him jumping 600 all the time; I just want the jumps to be just high enough for him to need to jump.

Also I wanted to experiment with him learning to weave using my hand as a target (he targets fine). But the instructors just basically said "no" and if i go to do they say "don't do it that way!"

These people do know a lot more about agility than I do - that is a given.

But at the same time - I have been clear that I don't want to compete. And even though I'm new to agility I think people shouldn't mind if I want to do some things my own way.

Anyway i am all filled with doubts now.

I don't know whether to hold my ground with these things.

Or whether I should just do what I'm told by the instructors. Afterall I know they know more about agility than I do.

But at the same time I can't see why it would bother them for me to experiment a little with different methods?

afterall if i fail they get to laugh at me

From the instructor's point of view perhaps they find it difficult when one person in the class is experimenting and then everyone decides to experiment. All of a sudden out the window goes their lesson plan and it becomes, not a free for all, but not a lesson either.

Our club tries to balance all of this, to let people in your position enjoy their time with their dogs, but it is frustrating when people take up the classes time, but don't really want to listen to what you know works.

This isn't a shot at you, rather I am trying to look at it through the instructor's eyes. Maybe have a chat with them about how you feel (as opposed to just telling them you don't want to do things their way because you don't want to compete. At least that way the lines of communication are open and everyone has options.

[raineth]

I take my big dog Digby to agility.

I just do it to spend time with him and have some fun with him.

I don't want to compete - I'm too busy with kids etc.

I'm really happy to have their instruction. There are a couple of things that i want to do my own way though.

For example because Digby is a giant dog and we're new to it all, I don't really want him jumping 600 all the time; I just want the jumps to be just high enough for him to need to jump.

Also I wanted to experiment with him learning to weave using my hand as a target (he targets fine). But the instructors just basically said "no" and if i go to do they say "don't do it that way!"

These people do know a lot more about agility than I do - that is a given.

But at the same time - I have been clear that I don't want to compete. And even though I'm new to agility I think people shouldn't mind if I want to do some things my own way.

Anyway i am all filled with doubts now.

I don't know whether to hold my ground with these things.

Or whether I should just do what I'm told by the instructors. Afterall I know they know more about agility than I do.

But at the same time I can't see why it would bother them for me to experiment a little with different methods?

afterall if i fail they get to laugh at me

From the instructor's point of view perhaps they find it difficult when one person in the class is experimenting and then everyone decides to experiment. All of a sudden out the window goes their lesson plan and it becomes, not a free for all, but not a lesson either.

Our club tries to balance all of this, to let people in your position enjoy their time with their dogs, but it is frustrating when people take up the classes time, but don't really want to listen to what you know works.

This isn't a shot at you, rather I am trying to look at it through the instructor's eyes. Maybe have a chat with them about how you feel (as opposed to just telling them you don't want to do things their way because you don't want to compete. At least that way the lines of communication are open and everyone has options.

thanks for the responses!

I'll reassure you agility dogs - that its not quite that situation

All the other people there are competing... two of those people are 'appointed' (sorry can't think of a better word) to teach any newbies who come along. I am the only newbie - so I'm not causing dissent among the ranks or anything ;)

Everyone else there actually does it on there own - I mean without an instructor. Although other people will offer support or advise as warrented.

It is a nice atmosphere.

I also didn't say "no I'm not doing that!" I just said that I'd like to have a go with targeting.

You see they had this set up where there was like a kind of zig-zaggy fence on one side of the weaves and my Digby couldn't even fit through it!

I have a lot of respect for the instructors. - and I don't want to be a pain in butt to them. That's why I'm conflicted between going along with jumping him at 600 and doing weaves there way etc.

Vickie, I really like the suggestion of doing the weaves at home - sounds like a fab compromise - I'm not annoying them but I'm having fun experimenting with my own methods.

Digby is 3 years old.

He is really big and solid - like a bullmastiff. While he can do a big jump he really alnds with a big thud when he does. I would hate to cause him physical problems from doing this - especially when its just a bit of fun for us both ;)

[raineth]

Where are you training? And how old is digby?

From the perspective of someone who has done a lot of instructing, it is really hard to get people to see the bigger picture sometimes. I always encourage people to train the same way, whether or not they wish to compete.I like to train with a high degree of motivation b/c I believe it is more enjoyable for the dog. IMHO That enjoyment is paramount regardless of whether you ever wish to compete or not.

Vickie, sorry I just wanted ask you about the bit I bolded above?

Because I'm a bit confused about what you mean?

Are you just saying that whether I decide to use my method, or theirs, the important thing is to stick with the same method?

Also, if I can ask another question.

When you are starting a dog out on weaves do you start with just a couple of weave poles set up?

If i try to teach it at home I was thinking that I might start with a couple of poles.

[Perdy]

Hey Raineth!

When I started with Sash, I decided to not participate at club to train weavers. I knew that Sash wouldn't be able to go through guides, like Digby - I definitely didn't want her freaking out and getting stuck in them, nor did I want them slowing her down resulting in slow weaves. I taught them at home/in the park using 2x2 method. And Vickie's right - no one cares once they're taught

I say, have a fun time at club with Digby and anything you don't want to do their way, teach it at home. Whilst everyone else is working, you work on something else or have a game of your own. Sometimes I'd let Sash have a rest instead of doing anything because an hour of training is a lot for her, the big dogs don't have the stamina for it, bless em!

[raineth]

Hey Raineth!

When I started with Sash, I decided to not participate at club to train weavers. I knew that Sash wouldn't be able to go through guides, like Digby - I definitely didn't want her freaking out and getting stuck in them, nor did I want them slowing her down resulting in slow weaves. I taught them at home/in the park using 2x2 method. And Vickie's right - no one cares once they're taught ;)

I say, have a fun time at club with Digby and anything you don't want to do their way, teach it at home. Whilst everyone else is working, you work on something else or have a game of your own. Sometimes I'd let Sash have a rest instead of doing anything because an hour of training is a lot for her, the big dogs don't have the stamina for it, bless em!

thanks Perdy! its good to have the perspective of an agility-expericed giant breed owner.

I do feel that I need to do things a bit differnently with him, not just because of his size but because of his totally laid-back temperament.

yeah the club has one course set up and so everyone spends most of their time waiting (he lies down and snoozes) and actually I think Digby likes that bit just as much as the actual agility We usually only go round twice before i can tell he wants to go back to lying around.

will look up the 2X2 method

[Vickie]

From the perspective of someone who has done a lot of instructing, it is really hard to get people to see the bigger picture sometimes. I always encourage people to train the same way, whether or not they wish to compete.I like to train with a high degree of motivation b/c I believe it is more enjoyable for the dog. IMHO That enjoyment is paramount regardless of whether you ever wish to compete or not.

Vickie, sorry I just wanted ask you about the bit I bolded above?

Because I'm a bit confused about what you mean?

Are you just saying that whether I decide to use my method, or theirs, the important thing is to stick with the same method?

Sorry, I did not explain that really well.

What I mean is this:

If I am instructing someone, it makes little difference to me as an instructor, whether they wish to compete or not. I will still try to teach them the same things the same way, because I believe that the method I use

a.)works

b.)increases enjoyment for the dog and

c.)is the safest option for their joints.

People succeeding = enjoyment. People enjoyment = dogs enjoyment.

Often when people muck around without instruction or a clear plan, they get frustrated because they do not know why things aren't working well. This = not fun for person or dog.

To give some specifics...I train my dogs a command to run fast straight ahead over a straight line of jumps, regardless of how far behind I get. I would also train this to someone who didn't wish to compete as it is clear, useful & fun for the dog. Not training this can result in a dog loping along waiting for the handler or spinning & barking in frustration. Doesn't matter whether you are mucking around or running a world cup, the trained confident dog will always be happier.

Same with turns, I teach signals for turns so that they know they will be turning before they take the jump they have to turn at. As well as the above enjoyment/confidence reasons applying here, a dog that knows it is turning will not land awkwardly & put unnecesary pressure on it's joints. This is especially importatnt for both large & fast dogs.

Make sense now?

Also, if I can ask another question.

When you are starting a dog out on weaves do you start with just a couple of weave poles set up?

If i try to teach it at home I was thinking that I might start with a couple of poles.

No need to reinvent the wheel, there are a few methods for teaching weaves that work and lots of information on the web/youtube about each of them:

3 pole method

2x2 method

guide/channel method

V/offset method

I start luring with 3 poles & very quickly switch from lure to reward & ask the dog to offer that behaviour. Once it is proofed from all angles/speeds, I add 2 poles & then straight to 12. I believe that you can only train this at home as it needs to be done 2-3 times a day every day for a week or so. This is just the method I have chosen & it works for me, the other methods are just as good.

hope this helps

Edited February 4, 2011 by Vickie

[raineth]

Thanks Vickie! that info is much appreciated

[Kavik]

I think there should be no problem with wanting to jump your dog lower than 600. And quite understandable with a giant breed dog if you don't wish to compete.

Is there a reason you specifically want to lure the weaves? As Vickie pointed out, there are many ways to train the weaves besides using guides, and they teach independence better than pure luring through the whole thing (the dog will have a better understanding of how to do the obstacle on his own without you right there pointing out each weave pole). I really think you need to train weaves at home anyway if you want to progress - once a week at training for a few repetitions is not enough to learn such a complex skill.

I also instruct, and one club I instruct at has mostly non competition interested people at the beginner level which I teach. It can be difficult to get people to understand the importance of some of the foundation/lower level exercises for the understanding and enjoyment of both dogs and people, even if you do not wish to compete. Even though many of these exercises don't look that related to agility they are important and also fun! We had a lengthy discussion on how we were going to teach weaves at the club given the mixed group of people we often have training and opted for a combination of V-weaves/slanted poles and a separate 2 pole entry exercise.

[raineth]

I think there should be no problem with wanting to jump your dog lower than 600. And quite understandable with a giant breed dog if you don't wish to compete.

Is there a reason you specifically want to lure the weaves? As Vickie pointed out, there are many ways to train the weaves besides using guides, and they teach independence better than pure luring through the whole thing (the dog will have a better understanding of how to do the obstacle on his own without you right there pointing out each weave pole). I really think you need to train weaves at home anyway if you want to progress - once a week at training for a few repetitions is not enough to learn such a complex skill.

I also instruct, and one club I instruct at has mostly non competition interested people at the beginner level which I teach. It can be difficult to get people to understand the importance of some of the foundation/lower level exercises for the understanding and enjoyment of both dogs and people, even if you do not wish to compete. Even though many of these exercises don't look that related to agility they are important and also fun! We had a lengthy discussion on how we were going to teach weaves at the club given the mixed group of people we often have training and opted for a combination of V-weaves/slanted poles and a separate 2 pole entry exercise.

Hi Kavik,

to answer your question "Is there a reason you specifically want to lure the weaves?"

well basically when I went, they had the weaves set up with a 'guide' (I think its called) and the instructor instructed me to lure him through with food.

I said that he targets my hand nicely and would she mind if I had a go at getting him to go through the poles by targeting my hand. I thought it would be easier for me to click and treat throughout doing it that way.

But he was too big to weave with the guide in place anyway - he did follow my hand and then got stuck in the guide.

so yeah, there is no specific reason - I just looked at what they were doing and thought it might suit us a little better to use a target rather than food lure

To be honest, they haven't really mentioned much to me about foundation work!

We just kind of go about the obstacles.

I can tell you are probably shaking your head right now

[corvus]

My question is always "Why?" Usually there's a good reason why instructors want to teach the way they want to teach, and if I know what those reasons are I am generally happy to do it their way. Sometimes I just don't understand where we're heading and I find that very difficult to work with. My brain likes to know the end point and work backwards. It's been explained to me that most people don't really want to know why or what comes next and wouldn't understand it if they were told anyway. So I'm welcome and encouraged to ask by email during the week and the instructors are happy to answer in more depth. But they are also flexible and tweak the method for different dogs. It's a good club.

[Kavik]

I'm not shaking my head, don't worry

Each club is different :D

I like showing new people foundation work, even if they don't see its relevance, as it is something they can work on at home and it helps with skills necessary for agility later on.

I prefer methods which don't rely on luring too heavily or for too long for weaving. I think the dog understands it better when they are given the chance to work it out rather than just follow the food. And if they understand it better, they enjoy it more and are quicker, which benefits everyone

[raineth]

I'm not shaking my head, don't worry

Each club is different :D

I like showing new people foundation work, even if they don't see its relevance, as it is something they can work on at home and it helps with skills necessary for agility later on.

I prefer methods which don't rely on luring too heavily or for too long for weaving. I think the dog understands it better when they are given the chance to work it out rather than just follow the food. And if they understand it better, they enjoy it more and are quicker, which benefits everyone

well I better have a look at some youtube vids and the like.

He is a decently behaved boy and we do got obedience and do other training at home so that is something.

he is also a little bit of a giver-upperer so in other training I do, I really try hard to make things simple and have him feel like he's succeeding.

I think one of the things I am getting most out of this thread though, is that I need to make sure the learning is fun for him. Which I know he hasn't found the weaves fun up until now. So I think I will skip doing them at club and have a look around the interwebz and find the method I think will suit him best

Corvus - thank you ;)

I will make sure I always ask 'why?' especially if I'm having doubts ;)

I must say most of what I've done at the club has been really good and we do enjoy it. Its just these two things that I feel are not working for us

[Vickie]

I think one of the things I am getting most out of this thread though, is that I need to make sure the learning is fun for him. Which I know he hasn't found the weaves fun up until now. So I think I will skip doing them at club and have a look around the interwebz and find the method I think will suit him best

It's all about the fun :D

Here are a couple of clips of large heavy dogs with good handlers who are obviously loving their agility

[raineth]

thanks Vickie, they looked great didn''t they?