Rspca Scientifc Seminar

[Are You Serious Jo]

Compare the number of horses who endure rollkur with the number of battery hens in Australia and tell me which issue needs more attention.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I don't think Paul McGreevy or RSPCA is against horse sports or dog sports etc. They are against cruelty. The scientific studies are about working out what is cruel or unnecessary in training...

Rollkur - or pulling the horses head right back for extended periods - doesn't seem to be very good for the horse or its performance. Personally I think the dressage requirement for horses having their heads vertical with their noses pointed straight at the ground blinds the horse - it can't see where it's going, it can only see its feet, anyway I think that is bad and a horse should be allowed to carry its head naturally for the pace that it is travelling at.

And as I have said before - I'd tackle feed lots for mammals and puppy mills, and those sow cage things ahead of battery chickens. But I do try to buy organic free range eggs. Or get eggs from friends I know have chickens which have good quality of life.

[Inevitablue]

Compare the number of horses who endure rollkur with the number of battery hens in Australia and tell me which issue needs more attention.

I partly agree, however FEI dressage is not an ecomonic concern to the government, whereas egg production is. I would be overjoyed if intensive farming was investigated and regulated with animal welfare paramount. Unfortunately the RSPCA cops it when the general public dont see them fighting for the injustices to animals that are in the media's eye. Feedlot beef farming and the gradual move to freestall dairying hardly ever get mentioned when people say the RSPCA dont fight hard enough.

As a society we are generally going backwards in production animal welfare.... live exports, grain overloaded cattle, dairy cows that never see the sun etc.

Freestall dairies are growing in Aust. A dairy in NSW has all their girls in large sheds, with about as much personal space as they would have at a royal show pavillion. Farmers on the NSW south coast are being offered millions for their beautiful land, and the cows are gradually shifting to confined barns.

We also export many cows to the UAE. In the big barns in which they live, if the aircon breaks down all will be dead within hours.....

One dairy in Canada has km's of barns and there is a platform train that they walk 20m to, which transports them to the milking shed, then takes them back when finished. No humans required as they are conditioned to the system with a feed of grain at either end. The extent of their exercise is about 100m a day! and no sunshine. Some smart non cow caring person worked out that for each km a cow walks she reabsorbs about 1 ltr of milk.... so lets stop the natural desire to move!!

Love or hate the RSPCA, they simply dont have the might to argue forcefully against intensive farming. Much like the government trying to handle the situation with Japanese whalers. I can understand all the other factors in play, not that I like it, or approve of it, but like much of society we do give our tacit consent to the governments decisions. As a query does anyone know what animal welfare is like in France (yes..apart from the live import of horses for slaughter), considering they are one nation that does not just accept government jurisdiction?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Exactly, they don't have the might to tackle the hard targets so instead they overdo their attacks on soft targets as they have to be seen to be doing something. But nothing I say is going to have any impact so I guess you can just wait for the new rspca driven laws and see the effects yourself.

MrsRB, do you think a check chain is a cruel training device BTW?

[Jed]

Mrs Rusty Bucket

However, while I stopped using the whip, I still took it with me, because for some reason he (and a lot of other horses I've ridden) were much better behaved when they knew I had a whip, even if I never used it, than when I didn't have one. Occasionally I'd get off, pick up a long straight bit of tree, show it to the horse, and stuff it in my boot to achieve the same effect. Same horse taught me I didn't need to kick when I wanted to move forward, but a slight nudge on the side would do. They can feel blowflies. I really don't understand why one needs spurs on a horse that will react to a fly.

To have a horse respond to an aid, he must first understand what the aid means. If you taught him that pulling his mane to the left was the signal for him to walk on, he would do it. There is no point in kicking. He will understand a closing of the legs, and sitting down in the saddle, but he first must understand what it means. And that is the rider's job when training. And a good horse will know it from when he is first ridden - his first trainer will ensure he is obedient to the aids.

The whip is used as a reinforcement aid. The horse should not be flogged with the whip. The aim with riding and race horses is different. A race horse may not give of his best without the judicious application of the whip. I used to ride one in trackwork - he constantly lugged to the right - but if you held the whip in the right hand where he could see it, he didn't do it. Training would have helped, but it wasn't going to happen if he had no speed.

And a couple of good whacks with the flat and noisy flap of a racing whip does seem to get some horses minds on their job - some horses will not willingly give of their best. I haven't noticed any racehorses suffering from a couple of whacks.

The spur should also be an aid of finesse - the touch of the spur is lighter than the heel kicking, and if the rider is in the correct position, the aid will go directly to a nerve, and the message will reach the brain more quickly and the horse will respond more quickly.

And Paul also said in his interview about horses - that refusals at jumps was mainly due to a rider failing to guide the horse on a straight line. He said that (most?) horses would prefer to go around an obstacle than over, but they only duck out when the line is not straight. Has not been my experience of jumping. Nice straight line and sudden stop in front of the jump. Well the horse stops and I don't (argh). Not real fond of jumping on an unwilling horse - me. Some horses like jumping. Mine would pull off the line I had him on so he could jump stuff. My dog does the same thing.

I think Paul has simplified this too much. Loss of line, loss of impulsion, rider in the wrong position, rider hanging onto the reins, not being the correct distance from the jump will all hinder the horse so he refuses a jump.

Some horses like jumping, some don't. Trying to compete with a horse with no abillity or no will is a waste of time. It's also wise to remember - before everything else - that horses can kill you. Racehorses, being young and full of feed, can kill you more quickly than others.

And you can lead a horse into a trailer with a carrot - as long as he wants to. When he doesn't want to, he digs his toes in. What you need to do is train him - and you may use a carrot as a reward, or you may not. Once he knows he is to go into the trailer, and that there is probably a reward, he will go in, 100% every single time.

Monty Roberts and join up - the horse is happy to follow, and if you handle a horse and ensure he is happy to follow, he will walk into a trailer, or a stable, or a kitchen, without any dramas, Training and trust.

Unfortunately, strappers of racehorses do not always know this, or the horse has become difficult before they acquired it.

I happen to think that a beginners' horse should be well trained. I have no respect for someone who thinks a beginners' horse is some sort of disobedient oaf to be pulled and kicked.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Jed

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Reverend Jo

I have used a chain on my dog and I don't like it and she didn't really pay that much attention to it. Ie she'd pull like a cart horse wearing it, impossible to deliver "pop pop pop" corrections. And I've seen far too many chains used incorrectly so - I think they can and often are cruel.

I like front attach harness - but I don't use this any more either. It's flat collar and stop and recall and treat for heel work at the moment though her heel work is much better with the lead off.

I have seen a prong collar used successfully to help a dog in a way that caused it no damage or stress - it was much better than a chain, and yet is one of the scariest looking tools I've seen. I'm still not convinced about electric collars but the modern ones deliver very gentle zaps that I can handle on my skin, they have time outs so can't be used continuously, and in my opinion, if the dog (like Jed's horse) is trained to understand what it means first, is much less cruel or dangerous than allowing a dog to run into traffic, annoy neighbours or attack a snake or cat.

I haven't read Paul's book on horse training yet, but I suspect he may have oversimplified (or I forgot something important) in his discussion about horse jumping. He was mainly talking about flat racing and use of the whip.

A race horse may not give of his best without the judicious application of the whip.

This is precisely the point that Paul McGreevy's study tested and found that it made no difference in the last 100m of the race. What he found made the difference was the position of the horse at 400m out and after that - using the whip made no difference but in the last 100m is generally where the jockeys would use the whip. Ie when it did no good.

I've seen horses in races look like they speed up when the jockeys use the whip and others that have the same accelleration without the whip but with encouragement in the way the jockey moved with the horse (like accellerating a swing?). My horse - anecdote I know - liked to run flat out, and he'd accellerate if there was another horse nearby also going flat out... Ie he'd feel faster in the presence of other horses - not that I ever got a stopwatch out and checked.

[Jed]

Mrs RB

This is precisely the point that Paul McGreevy's study tested and found that it made no difference in the last 100m of the race. What he found made the difference was the position of the horse at 400m out and after that - using the whip made no difference but in the last 100m is generally where the jockeys would use the whip. Ie when it did no good.

Good, I am pleased you didn't think I was having a shot at you - I wanted to discuss all this, but there is so much in all this I have never ridden a horse in a proper horse race, but I have ridden a lot of track work, and heard a lot of jockeys talking, plus known a lot of racehorses. I haven't done any scientific studies, but some horses do go faster with a bit of whip, some don't. And I know this from riding on the track. You are asked to increase the pace over the last 100 and have a horse beside you - some horses wouldn't quicken without a crack, even if the other horse was ahead, some simply needed enouragement. And if the ones at the races which don't quicken after a whack, it means the other horses are going more slowly? Bit strange. You can feel a galloping horse extend or go faster, when you are riding it and if you are "going with the horse". Remember too that the stewards are watching, and jockeys can be punished for not trying by not encouraging the horse. Some have a lot of trouble convincing stewards that their particular horse will not go faster with the whip - particularly when he is beaten by a short half head. It depends on the length of the race whether the jockey asks for an increase in speed at 400m or not. Sometimes it is right, sometimes no

Other studies show Paul is not right.

Choker chains - again, the dog needs training - and then he will be obedience. Training any animal involves ask, allow and reward. I don't llike the look of prong collars much, but people I trust say they are ok - same with electric collars. Success is in the hands of the trainer with any of those things. I use a choker on young dogs, once they will walk along on a collar. I say a negative or a positive word to them with the choker - and they soon learn that "nuh" and a little ripple through the choker means they are too far in front, and the same if they are too far ahead. Works with all dogs .... ask, allow, reward

[WoofnHoof]

I don't think Paul McGreevy or RSPCA is against horse sports or dog sports etc. They are against cruelty. The scientific studies are about working out what is cruel or unnecessary in training...

Rollkur - or pulling the horses head right back for extended periods - doesn't seem to be very good for the horse or its performance. Personally I think the dressage requirement for horses having their heads vertical with their noses pointed straight at the ground blinds the horse - it can't see where it's going, it can only see its feet, anyway I think that is bad and a horse should be allowed to carry its head naturally for the pace that it is travelling at.

And as I have said before - I'd tackle feed lots for mammals and puppy mills, and those sow cage things ahead of battery chickens. But I do try to buy organic free range eggs. Or get eggs from friends I know have chickens which have good quality of life.

The head position on a well trained and fit dressage horse is meant to be a reflection of the rest of the body, the carriage of the head is not so much influenced by pulling on the reins (theoretically and in a non-rollkur training regimen) as it is by the natural tendency of a horse to stretch his neck and allow the muscles to flow through from the back. The higher dressage movements are all about encouraging the horse to use his body in the most athletic way to enhance natural movement even with the burden of a rider. Modern dressage attempts to recreate the natural exhuberance of movement, have you seen a stallion showing off for a mare? He will passage and arch his neck and prance around like he's floating on air - that is what real dressage attempts to emulate. Whether it is achievable and sustainable without cost is an ethical question that will no doubt be debated in the future but the original intent of dressage training is to train the horse to move obediently and athletically, without the training to develop muscles which allow self carriage those movements would be ugly, hurried and stlited due to the lack of ability to lift and carry their own weight as well as the riders weight. That's the theory anyway

Reverend Jo rollkur and caged hens are symptoms of the same cancer, animal welfare doesn't come before the hip pocket and that has to change first. Rollkur will be easier to stamp out if the powers that be wake up and realise that dressage needs all the good PR it can get, the solution in this case is easy, stop giving any marks to Anky for non-existent halts and trailing hocks and stop giving Totilas gold medals when he moves like two horses that have been cut in half and patched together.

The RSPCA can't do anything about getting rid of battery cages in the near future and they know it, the only thing that will stop it is getting people to buy free range every time they buy eggs and people on this very board have stated they wont buy free range if it costs more so until the majority of people start putting their money where their mouth is nothing will change. That is why I'm happy to see any welfare issue get headlines because it forces people to think about animal welfare and the more they think about it the more it will encroach on their everyday choices and collective conciousness. That is why I think each issue is equally important, I comment on equine issues because that is what I know best, no doubt there are poultry fanciers who are arguing just as vehmently for better welfare for hens, I'm not going to tell you which issue is more important because like I said I see them as equally important I just know more about horses than I do about hens so I'm going to weigh in more to a topic on that issue than I will on the hen issue.

Have you asked the RSPCA why they choose to weigh in on the issues they do? Have you any ideas for them on how they can achieve better outcomes in terms of chicken welfare? If you've got a magic bullet for the hen issue I'm sure they'd be overjoyed to hear it, I can't think of a solution that industry and the public purse will swallow but if you can that's great.

[corvus]

I happen to think that a beginners' horse should be well trained. I have no respect for someone who thinks a beginners' horse is some sort of disobedient oaf to be pulled and kicked.

I assume that was in response to my riding lesson and so therefore will clarify that the horse I rode was not wantonly disobedient and I didn't have to pull or kick him. The misbehaviour I mentioned was much more subtle. He just drifted. Paul said if I was consistent he would figure out what was expected of him and behave accordingly. Given my riding experience consists of 2 hours in the saddle, if I think he was easy to ride, he was easy to ride.

[corvus]

I attended this seminar yesterday. It was quite good. Enjoyed the presentations and found the attendees to be particularly open and friendly. The underlying message IMO was to consider how effective our efforts to modify behaviour in animals are, and whether the methods we choose are the most humane. There was also a focus on using science to guide our welfare decisions and be critical of claims made about how animals think or feel.

IMO it was well balanced. There was a bit of anti-Milanism, and a bit of anti-dominance theory, but it was balanced out by talks on humane use of negative reinforcement in management and training.

[Nekhbet]

negative reinforcement or positive punishment?

[corvus]

Negative reinforcement. A fair bit of care was made to make sure everybody understood the distinction.