Rspca Scientifc Seminar

[efowler]

I will attending this as im an Animal Science Student at CSU wagga.

Looks interesting if anyone else was interested.

http://www.rspca.org.au/what-we-do/science...ce-seminar.html

All work and no play? Modifying the behaviour of animals

Tuesday 22 February 2011, CSIRO Discovery Centre, Canberra

The 2011 Scientific Seminar will explore the animal welfare implications of training animals by asking how our attempts to modify animal behaviour affect the animals themselves. Is making animals work for our own purposes justified? How do we motivate animals to perform, or behave the way we want them to, and do any of them actually enjoy it? Can we use training to improve the welfare of individual animals? And are the training methods used always acceptable, even when they are out of public view?

The Seminar will present the views of a range of experts in animal behaviour and training with experience with companion animals, working animals, livestock, zoos and animal parks. The Seminar will be chaired by Dr Paul McGreevy, Associate Professor in animal behaviour at the University of Sydney.

As is the tradition with this Seminar Series, the program aims to cross conventional topic boundaries, challenge current thinking, and stimulate further discussion. RSPCA Australia welcomes the participation of all interested people to help make this a fascinating and thought-provoking day.

[Nekhbet]

Is making animals work for our own purposes justified? How do we motivate animals to perform, or behave the way we want them to, and do any of them actually enjoy it? Can we use training to improve the welfare of individual animals? And are the training methods used always acceptable, even when they are out of public view?

Why does this give me the heeby jeebys

let me know what happens with it or if there are transcripts available please.

[kelpiekaye]

I will attending this as im an Animal Science Student at CSU wagga.

Looks interesting if anyone else was interested.

http://www.rspca.org.au/what-we-do/science...ce-seminar.html

All work and no play? Modifying the behaviour of animals

Tuesday 22 February 2011, CSIRO Discovery Centre, Canberra

The 2011 Scientific Seminar will explore the animal welfare implications of training animals by asking how our attempts to modify animal behaviour affect the animals themselves. Is making animals work for our own purposes justified? How do we motivate animals to perform, or behave the way we want them to, and do any of them actually enjoy it? Can we use training to improve the welfare of individual animals? And are the training methods used always acceptable, even when they are out of public view?

The Seminar will present the views of a range of experts in animal behaviour and training with experience with companion animals, working animals, livestock, zoos and animal parks. The Seminar will be chaired by Dr Paul McGreevy, Associate Professor in animal behaviour at the University of Sydney.

As is the tradition with this Seminar Series, the program aims to cross conventional topic boundaries, challenge current thinking, and stimulate further discussion. RSPCA Australia welcomes the participation of all interested people to help make this a fascinating and thought-provoking day.

Looks very ineresting. Wish I could. Enjoy

[Aussienot]

Is making animals work for our own purposes justified?

I didn't know RSPCA and PETA were merging . . . .

I attended on of the RSPCA Scientific seminars a couple of years back, and the information presented was interesting and well documented. But something about the marketing spiel on this one sounds like it could lack balance.

Personally I don't think making me work is justified, but I don't see my animals paying the bills yet.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

That McGreevy guy is very busy at the moment. Especially working for the RSPCA, he's just completed a study for them that shows that race horses don't go any faster if they're whipped for the last 100m or not whipped, in fact, some change stride so it feels and looks different but they actually go slower. He's been doing lots of radio interviews about it.

And he's doing a seminar/conference in Adelaide based on two of his books 12th and 13th Feb. I'm going to that one. I've read his book "A modern dog's life" and really enjoyed it too, and I think my dog enjoys what I learned too.

[corvus]

Is making animals work for our own purposes justified? How do we motivate animals to perform, or behave the way we want them to, and do any of them actually enjoy it? Can we use training to improve the welfare of individual animals? And are the training methods used always acceptable, even when they are out of public view?

Why does this give me the heeby jeebys

Well, I could take a guess....

Don't jump to conclusions. Asking the question is important IMO. It doesn't mean anyone is going to declare the answer is "no" and set about trying to prevent anyone from making animals work for them. If we don't ask, we aren't the best animal custodians we could be. Most of the time these sorts of questions are posed to make society in general think more carefully about our values and how we treat animals. IMO that is always a valuable exercise and one that should come up every decade or so as society changes.

[The Spotted Devil]

That McGreevy guy is very busy at the moment. Especially working for the RSPCA, he's just completed a study for them that shows that race horses don't go any faster if they're whipped for the last 100m or not whipped, in fact, some change stride so it feels and looks different but they actually go slower. He's been doing lots of radio interviews about it.

And he's doing a seminar/conference in Adelaide based on two of his books 12th and 13th Feb. I'm going to that one. I've read his book "A modern dog's life" and really enjoyed it too, and I think my dog enjoys what I learned too.

Mrs RB - there has been some limited work done on the application of the whip in racing. One of the interesting things to come out of it was that the whip is applied poorly by a very large percentage of jockeys. If you apply the basics of operant learning, for example, we use a lot of negative reinforcement when it comes to training horses - it works incredibly well if applied correctly. For example, apply pressure with legs, horse moves forward, remove leg pressure. A very basic example but the same applies to racing - apply pressure with whip, horse moves forward, keep applying pressure with whip (which is what happens quite a bit) - the horse stops responding to the whip pressure. I don't have the details of the study at hand but was discussing the results some time ago with the author.

[mackiemad]

spotted devil, i was about to say the same thing!

pressure/release has brought some very negative training mehtods in the horse industries. in racing the use of the whip is under review but perhaps even more pressing is the issue of rollkur in dressage (or any flatwork with a horse), i suspect that rollkur and equine issues will feature more heavily in the training debate rather than canine methods and issues. also the use of spurs - well not the use of them but the increasing reliance on them, rather than using them as a back up to the forward aide of the calf. all to do with pressure/release being used wrongly.

i could of course be completely wrong, but given the suspected psychological and known physical issues that arise from rollkur and its popularity due to some very well known international riders i think it is a fair assumption to think any discussion would be equine focussed...

[Are You Serious Jo]

When the rspca put as much time and effort into getting hens out of battery cages and sows out of stalls as they do into harassing dog breeders I might gain back some of the respect I used to have for them. Until then I refuse to support them or attend any of their events.

[The Spotted Devil]

When the rspca put as much time and effort into getting hens out of battery cages and sows out of stalls as they do into harassing dog breeders I might gain back some of the respect I used to have for them. Until then I refuse to support them or attend any of their events.

They do actually engage with and lobby both animal welfare scientists and farm animal producers in Victoria. It's not "news worthy" but it is happening behind the scenes.

[Are You Serious Jo]

They may be doing some lobbying but they don't put as much effort into production animal welfare as they do for soft targets. Battery hens are a far more serious issue than tail docking, why not put the same effort into the more pressing welfare problems as they do targeting dog breeders? I've been following factory farming issues for about 26 years and still hens are in tiny cages. There may be some lobbying but if they were serious they'd have made more progress by now. They don't have the balls to tackle the real welfare issues.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

While you're at it, ask your butcher or waiter for "grass fed beef" not "grain fed" because "grain fed" = feed lot or battery farm for (meat) cattle.

With the horse whip thing. One thing Paul said was quarter horses got whipped on their shoulders - and most of our thoroughbreds get whipped on their butts.

I was told (a squillion years ago) that it was mainly the noise that was supposed to frighten the horse into moving away from the contact point... so hitting on the shoulder would seem obviously counter productive.

I did find with my own horse that hitting it when it refused to move forward on the butt, just gave it an excuse to freak out at whatever it was that it was refusing to move towards. A much better tactic for me was to just wait, calmly and do nothing while he figured out 1. I wasn't giving in or letting him go where he wanted. 2. Whatever scary thing was there, wasn't really that bad after all (it didn't come and get him after a couple of minutes).

However, while I stopped using the whip, I still took it with me, because for some reason he (and a lot of other horses I've ridden) were much better behaved when they knew I had a whip, even if I never used it, than when I didn't have one. Occasionally I'd get off, pick up a long straight bit of tree, show it to the horse, and stuff it in my boot to achieve the same effect. Same horse taught me I didn't need to kick when I wanted to move forward, but a slight nudge on the side would do. They can feel blowflies. I really don't understand why one needs spurs on a horse that will react to a fly.

And Paul also said in his interview about horses - that refusals at jumps was mainly due to a rider failing to guide the horse on a straight line. He said that (most?) horses would prefer to go around an obstacle than over, but they only duck out when the line is not straight. Has not been my experience of jumping. Nice straight line and sudden stop in front of the jump. Well the horse stops and I don't (argh). Not real fond of jumping on an unwilling horse - me. Some horses like jumping. Mine would pull off the line I had him on so he could jump stuff. My dog does the same thing.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I wonder how many horses he has jumped in his life then. Great, now he's an expert on showjumping

[persephone]

do any of them actually enjoy it?

be careful.. they may be humanising the animalz ;)

(see HERE if it's clear as mud )

[corvus]

I got a riding lesson from Paul recently. That was an eye-opener. He made me ride his "beginners" horse, and pointed out all the misbehaviour that poor riders have trained into him. He also told me all the things I did that were sending conflicting messages to the horse. I've learnt stacks about horses from working under him! I've also learnt that the horse world is about ten times more petty and vicious than the dog world.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

It's like some trainers in the racehorse industry know nothing about operant or classical conditioning.

I saw four blokes trying to force an obviously unwilling horse into a start box with a few other horses the other day on the way to the beach.

At the same time I saw a guy reprimand (hit) a horse that decided to freak out at a plastic cup on the road - in the middle of the road. A horse was recently killed there by a taxi driver who wasn't paying attention to where he was going. Sigh.

I thought - with some clicker training and carrots I could get unwilling horse into the box without any grief inside a few days (or less), instead of a horse that is permanenty traumatised at the sight of the starting boxes. Monty Roberts developed a blanket for the back end of a horse to help it feel more comfortable with starting boxes, which helped a lot of horses who found the experience frightening.

I agree about the Rollcur or holding a horse with its head curled under and neck arched is bad. I'd much rather a horse hold its head naturally so it can see where it's going. My horse taught me that.

Paul Mc has written at least two books specifically about horse training, so while something might have been missed in the interview, I suspect he knows what he's talking about there.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Are You Serious Jo]

Having a book published is no guarantee the author knows what they are on about, all it means is someone published their book. I've left the horse world behind, so the gradual push by animal rights groups to eliminate horse sports won't affect me. I've also decided to walk away from registered dogs, I think all the damage has been done and there is no going back. At least there are enough researchers out there who understand and support animal conditioning to counteract any rspca hysteria on training. I'm not referring to rollkur, very few people support this or do it so I can't understand why it needs much attention. I can't think of any other animal training in the zoo community or dog related training that warrants the rspca's special attention either.

Guess the rspca needs the PR machine to keep rolling or the donations dry up.

[WoofnHoof]

Actually in jumping the line is critical, you might think your horse is straight but if your body isn't you are still throwing the horse off it's line.

Rollkur is an extremely important issue because it's the elite doing it, they are supposed to be setting the standard and the fact that they are using this method and still getting gold methods is indicative of the original goals and aims of this sport being eroded and this of course filters down to every level.

I don't agree with everything the RSPCA does but they are providing a platform for animal welfare science, and yes there have been plenty of similar seminars about farm animal welfare too, I went to one a couple of years back the focus was on mulesing it was very interesting and yes very balanced.

What exactly is wrong with asking the question about whether animals should work for us and whether they should enjoy it? It's not humanizing it's scientifically valid to explore affective emotional states in animals even though positive emotional states has largely been ignored because of the more serious need to address the negative emotional states. IMO they are two sides of the same coin, you cannot have positive without negative and you cannot look at negative emotions in animals and dismiss positive emotions, if we ignore one side we aren't looking at the whole picture.

Positive states can override negative states, I worked with a guy in animal research who had to give doses of meds to pigs, traditionally these were administered by forcing the pig to swallow a pill, he found that the pigs would eat it hidden inside a marshmallow, and made the process easier as they would line up for their marshmallows every day quite happily (as much

as anyone could tell they were happy anyway lol), now thousands of dollars of animal welfare research money could have been spent finding a less stressful way to force a pig to take it's meds, yet easier and quicker to find a positive solution to the problem using the positive emotions induced by the taste of marshmallows overriding the bitter pill.

Simplistic I know but without looking at the positive emotions in animals (ie what makes them happy, why are they happy, how do we know they are happy etc) we cannot really say whether or not they are happy to work for us.

Part of the rollkur debate has centered around the FEI concept of the elite sport horse as a 'happy athlete' which is laughable when we don't know whether they are in fact happy, sometimes it seems that way when they seem to relish the work and throw their hearts and souls into it, some people suggest a horse isn't happy unless it's standing under a tree with a full belly and not working at all.

IMO every bit of animal welfare research has value whether it's tackling the big issues or not, because it all means that there are people that care enough to ask the question and that there are also people that care enough to seek the answers.

[Erny]

...but perhaps even more pressing is the issue of rollkur in dressage (or any flatwork with a horse), i suspect that rollkur and equine issues will feature more heavily in the training debate ...

I always thought this was not desired anyway . IME points are removed for your horse being behind the verticle. When I purchased my current boy (as a 5 yo .... he's now 30yo and retired) he'd been "re-mouthed" .... - OT to go into detail other than to tell you that when I got on him he would not allow me to take up contact with the bit and in an attempt to avoid it he would move with his chin on his chest. It took me a good long while with soft hands, deep seat and a soft bit for him to take contact with the bit and work to the vertical, at least. I worked so hard to achieve this I'm surprised that top riders get away with riding behind the vertical. I never did.

[WoofnHoof]

...but perhaps even more pressing is the issue of rollkur in dressage (or any flatwork with a horse), i suspect that rollkur and equine issues will feature more heavily in the training debate ...

I always thought this was not desired anyway . IME points are removed for your horse being behind the verticle. When I purchased my current boy (as a 5 yo .... he's now 30yo and retired) he'd been "re-mouthed" .... - OT to go into detail other than to tell you that when I got on him he would not allow me to take up contact with the bit and in an attempt to avoid it he would move with his chin on his chest. It took me a good long while with soft hands, deep seat and a soft bit for him to take contact with the bit and work to the vertical, at least. I worked so hard to achieve this I'm surprised that top riders get away with riding behind the vertical. I never did.

It's not used in the test Erny it's a 'training exercise' often used in warmup.