Predatory Drift

[melzawelza]

This is one thing I've been a little concerned about while searching for future puppy. I have been looking into Amstaff pups and believe this is the breed for me, however I currently have two cats. I have a lot of history in dog training and plan to work very hard at socialising pup with cats, dogs, people, objects etc - but predatory drift is not something you can 'train' for.

Pup and cats would be seperated when I'm not home, but it seems this can happen so quickly.

[corvus]

but predatory drift is not something you can 'train' for.

Are you sure? Another rhetorical question. I guess a lot of things were once thought to be something you can't train for. I never quite know where that line is. Maybe somewhere different for every dog.

[melzawelza]

oops, I was on my iphone, I meant to say CAN'T train for, LOL

[Greytmate]

IMO the behaviour all creatures described with the GSD could just as easily be a mixture of territorial aggression and barrier frustration, thus having nothing to do with prey drive or predatory drift.

Not having a lot of experience with defence drives, I accept that many of the defensive behaviours might be the same as predatory behaviours, but the description given does fit prey drive pretty well.

I also think that the different drives may not be as separate as the labels would imply.

What you describe as 'barrier frustration' could happen when a dog is frustrated in any type of drive.

I think its good that this topic has come up in general rather than training, as I don't often visit that forum, and don't use prey drive in training at all.

Melza, a lot will depend on which line (more than breed) you get, as well as socialisation, desensitisation, and good old fashioned training. But management is good too. I'm a bit short of time to explain a bit more, but don't let 'predatory drift' put you off, because it may not be an issue you can't cope with.

[corvus]

I also think that the different drives may not be as separate as the labels would imply.

Panksepp would agree! So would I.

What you describe as 'barrier frustration' could happen when a dog is frustrated in any type of drive.

True. Frustration is not confined to territoriality by any means, and is known to be a potential cause of aggressive behaviour. For all we know the GSD so badly wanted to play with the BC that the barrier of the fence drove it to scary heights of frustrated arousal. We see this sort of thing sometimes with dogs on leash. I've seen dogs that are very excited in a positive way (I assume, judging by body language) about other dogs, but because they are on leash and can't meet and greet they get so worked up. I've seen owners let dogs like that off. Some of them go back to normal when they are off leash, but not all of them do.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Corvus and all.

Have to agree that the GSD vs BC was unlikely to fit the definition of "predatory drift" or a "drift/snap into a predatory attitude".

Interesting about the "motivational specificity" ie that it's all the same "seeking" and not differentiated by the whys. I will have to do a bit more reading. I would like to know why it seems so counter intuitive ie it seems obvious to me that my dog "seeks" different things at different times, so her motivations are different and what will end the search (satisfy or reward) are different. Ie it's no good offering water when she wants food, or food when she wants a game, or a game when she's thirsty...

[corvus]

Interesting about the "motivational specificity" ie that it's all the same "seeking" and not differentiated by the whys. I will have to do a bit more reading. I would like to know why it seems so counter intuitive ie it seems obvious to me that my dog "seeks" different things at different times, so her motivations are different and what will end the search (satisfy or reward) are different. Ie it's no good offering water when she wants food, or food when she wants a game, or a game when she's thirsty...

Oh, I think you're right. Certainly they aren't always seeking the same thing. But I think the important bit is the anticipation, which is switched on FOR something in particular. As I understand it, the SEEKING system is what drives the behaviour, but other things switch on the SEEKING system. For example, say I always followed a click with a piece of steak. If I pick up the clicker, my dog would probably go straight into SEEKING mode, but if I clicked and offered a lick of peanut butter instead of a piece of steak, there's a good chance my dog will go "Whaaaat?" and not want a bar of it. What switched him into SEEKING mode was the anticipation for steak. Hypothetically.

In a predatory animal, just stimulating the SEEKING circuit can be enough to send them into predatory aggression. In rats, who are opportunistically predatory, stimulating the circuit may prompt them to hunt, but only if they are the hunting type in the first place. Apparently not all rats are keen hunters.

The lack of motivational specificity refers to brain circuits. The theory was each reward should have its own circuit that dictates how the animal will behave in pursuit of that reward. The reality appears to be that there is just one circuit that controls this for all rewards. That doesn't mean the behaviour will always be the same regardless of what is being sought by the animal. As I understand it, the behaviour expressed varies among individuals. There is a spot in the brain you can stimulate to make a cat go kill a rat, so it is hard-wired behaviour, and it's all tied up with reward centres in the brain and so we know it's intrinsically rewarding, but it won't start on its own without the SEEKING system is how I understand it. No one knows if what gets stimulated when a dog plays tug, for example, is the same bit that gets stimulated when a dog is hunting. Although Panksepp says there is a whole circuit for rough and tumble play. I'm not sure if that's all play in general. RAT play is a bit special.

Anyway, I could go on about it all day and it's pretty complex. There are so many interesting things about this circuit that to me explain lots of odd little things that occur in training. If you can get your hands on Panksepp's book "Affective Neuroscience", I heartily recommend it. It's extremely interesting and explains a lot of the funny little quirks of the SEEKING system.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I clicked and offered a lick of peanut butter instead of a piece of steak, there's a good chance my dog will go "Whaaaat?

That might explain my dog's reaction to cheese as treats... lol

The motivation must live somewhere (in the brain)...

But I suppose that if each "reward" had a different circuit, you couldn't "transfer value" from one thing to another eg from food to tug to jumping (agility) as valued rewards...