Predatory Drift

[all creatures]

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic.

Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment.

Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....)

Maybe we should drop our ego's at the log in and just 'talk' about the big picture sometimes..?

Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling - and I don't even see it this bad on forums without a moderator......? Yup - behaviour begets behaviour and I find that I have responded, in like, and yes I am ashamed......lost my sense of humour also... (and I am no hyprocrite here - I have lost my PM rights - like the naughty child I was...) but I am not going to get sucked in anymore. Ever heard of "trolling"? Lots of it going on in this site..... and

Maybe it's no surprise, after all, the whole dog ownership thing and all..... is such a mess - such a lack of consensus and/or mature communication between the experts, intelligent dog folk, breeders and the rest.......how do you think that you will ever be able to change anything for the better this way.....? Sometimes we truly dont' see the forrest for the trees, it seems.

My first ever dog forum - for my first ever problems. It might be my last....but - I need to be here right now - and I need all of you, too. Don't let us possibly less experienced folk down here please.

I am here for my dogs....and I will quite happily lay my soul bare for them, here in public. My mistakes, my successes, ignorance....whatever it takes to get it right.

Edit: You can say what u like here (I have thick skin!) but the whole prey drive and PDrift - whilst it was a sort of shock for me initially - it ended up being no real mystery once I looked deeper, actually ....and I don't know if that's just me - because I am a nerdy scientist-type that analyses things to death - or not. It was like a whole "cascade" of 43yrs around dogs just "locked into place", for me, personally. I just don't think it's a very complicated thing to understand, for me (IMHO)....?

Edited February 2, 2011 by all creatures

[Rebanne]

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic.

Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment.

Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....)

How do you know why people didn't post here? Lots of people read topics and don't reply, and they don't reply for lots of reasons. Why are you taking it so personally? Frankly with this last post of yours I wonder why I am bothering to reply to you at all.

[Greytmate]

I know a lot about prey drive in dogs, and have tested many dogs for prey drive towards other animals and dogs.

I don't know about drift, but I think that many people have no idea what prey drive looks like, what might trigger it, and so are surprised when their dog acts out of prey drive.

Is the prey drive suddenly switched on, or is it that there was never the right trigger before?

Just because a dog is wagging his tail and standing still quietly doesn't mean he is being a good boy.

Anyone using an aggressive stafford bitch for breeding family pets is unethical, whether the aggression is predatory or other.

Greytmate I have read many of your posts (and nekhbets) on this topic - and I have found them really interesting

Can you describe what prey drive looks like at all please? or maybe even a video? (but that one may be a big ask, I realise..)

I 'think' I have witnessed PDrift first hand - but not sure - maybe just an aggressive dog. Maybe you might like to comment? This is what I witnessed:

My entire male BC in an empty lot playing fetch with me - so very active (duhh..!?)

Big dog barking along an adjoining fence line for maybe 5 mins - didn't think anything of it - me or my boy.

A totally unexpected attack from the same dog - a very large pedigree GSD - that escaped this backyard.

The dog hurtled across the 20m at a speed that was mind blowing.

The dog had his tail fully erect, hackles up.

His eyes were entirely focussed on my dog and his stare did not waver for one millisecond - (even though I was yelling my head off, waving my arms etc)

His run was low and focussed, not bounding etc...

He went straight for the neck hold on my BC and would not stop.

The owner was home (thank god..) and raced out but could not call his dog off verbally. He was forced to physically intervene. Owner was very, very shaken.

Also - does the "drift" part mean a drift in their target-prey? (ie from rabbits to small dogs for eg)

What you describe sounds very much like a dog in prey drive, you just missed seeing the first part.

When the prey drive is triggered the dog will prick its ears up, and stare and stiffen up. But instead of putting its head up high, and being up on its toes like a dog would when trying to challenge another dog, the toes are planted firmly and the elbows are bent. The dog stares at the neck of the prey, so its neck will be low. The tail may be slightly up or slightly down or in between, and the tail may wag slowly or moderately, but not quickly or wildly. Or it may be held stiffly. The dog's heart rate quickens and adrenaline is released causing blood to be directed to the muscles and away from the brain. This means that the dog is less likely to be able to be distracted or impossible to distract. The dog is likely to be completely silent at this stage. The dog may sniff the air towards the prey, but not in a normal bum sniffing way, they are not interested in that end of the prey at all.

In my testing the dogs were safely restrained and so that is as far as it went. Then the test would be stopped before the huge lunge towards the prey. The dogs would sometimes bark in frustration at the prey when they realised that they were restrained from reaching it.

Many people would be completely unaware that their dog was even in prey drive until it took off. Even if you knew what to look for it would be too late. The way to manage prey drive is to prepare for it and avoid the triggers. Some training can be done, but that is a lot of work, and its not something that many trainers can even recognise, let alone deal with.

Three variations in prey drive are the amount or intensity of the drive, the type of trigger, and where that dog finishes its predatory sequence. So most prey drive is harmless and will stay harmless. Toy playing includes natural prey drive, greyhound racing is natural prey drive.

Ball fetching is prey drive, ball obsession is strong intensity of prey drive, ball destroying is a fuller sequence of prey drive.

In my opinion, dogs that display prey drive towards other dogs, or people, need to be strictly controlled in public. (Leashed or muzzled as well depending on how far that dog takes the sequence) Dogs like that should not be bred from as pets either. We just don't want dogs doing that to people.

Environment plays a part on determining what the dogs triggers will be, but it is an instinct. Dogs and cats (and probably other animals) are often able to instinctively recognise when a dog is showing prey drive towards them (they read dog language better than us), maybe because the ones that don't recognise that threat are less likely to pass on their genes. There can be a feedback loop of non-verbal communication between the predator and prey which can intensify or decrease the drive.

Corvus, I am very clear in my mind what prey drive is and how it works, and I never get confused by the label. But I don't 'train in drive' . I use the term simply to describe a type of instinct. I guess I could call it Predatory Aggression, but it isn't always aggressive. Anyone selling dogs as pets really needs to have an idea of what 'variety' of prey drive might be present in the dogs they sell. And make a real effort not sell the dangerous ones.

I don't know if I like the term predatory drift either, but so far you haven't come up with any alternatives that I can understand.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Greytmate

[all creatures]

Greytmate - thank you for your time to respond so comprehensively (and diplomatically also) - such an interesting post. It will take me some time to digest all the info there - but I have so many questions bubbling away already! ... But many won't see the light of day here perhaps....

Suffice to say - in our incident - my Mum and Baby (in the pram) and me - witnessed Mr BC be a very quick dog on his feet. He did not back down.....submitting was simply not an option for him - poor bugger - he knew damn well that he was fighting for his life, and he was no fighter. I believe that was significant - in the scenario also perhaps.

Thank god for his mane - I think that, and his speed/agility, were the only things that saved his life....and in those very fast seconds - I believe I 'saw' what was going through his mind - shock, confusion, fear, bravery......I will never forget it - like a slow motion film....I felt every second of it too. It was all could do not to not to get in there myself with my ball thrower and beat that bloody dog on the head.....feral feelings on my part there too...

Anyway - I am guessing you test prey drives for a good reason Greytmate.

Your comments come the full circle perhaps....eg: have a HPD dog that is a known finisher? take repsonsible measures....have a small dog? maybe don't let it run amok with the big HPD dogs?

Edited February 2, 2011 by all creatures

[Rebanne]

Anyway - I am guessing you test prey drives for a good reason Greytmate. Maybe one day there could be a serious go at this topic on DOL on the pin board (or whatever it is...??) I still think it's a really worthwhile topic. If trainers are not recognising it - maybe it's about time they did?

maybe you could have a look in other forums like the training one, you might find what you want there

[all creatures]

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic.

Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment.

Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....)

How do you know why people didn't post here? Lots of people read topics and don't reply, and they don't reply for lots of reasons. Why are you taking it so personally? Frankly with this last post of yours I wonder why I am bothering to reply to you at all.

Sigh... enter the Troll....

Edited February 2, 2011 by all creatures

[all creatures]

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic.

Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment.

Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....)

How do you know why people didn't post here? Lots of people read topics and don't reply, and they don't reply for lots of reasons. Why are you taking it so personally? Frankly with this last post of yours I wonder why I am bothering to reply to you at all.

Ummm....because some of these folk are definitely ones who would very likely have even just a tiny bit of info to add here....? (Alot, in fact)

But maybe some folk have been bashed around so much on this forum - they feel a need to keep a low profile perhaps?

[Rebanne]

you've been here 8 weeks and you are an expert on all things DOL

face it most people wouldn't bother replying to you cause you have no idea what you are talking about and keep going off on woe is me tangents

[Rebanne]

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic.

Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment.

Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....)

Maybe we should drop our ego's at the log in and just 'talk' about the big picture sometimes..?

Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling - and I don't even see it this bad on forums without a moderator......? Yup - behaviour begets behaviour and I find that I have responded, in like, and yes I am ashamed......lost my sense of humour also... (and I am no hyprocrite here - I have lost my PM rights - like the naughty child I was...) but I am not going to get sucked in anymore. Ever heard of "trolling"? Lots of it going on in this site..... and

Maybe it's no surprise, after all, the whole dog ownership thing and all..... is such a mess - such a lack of consensus and/or mature communication between the experts, intelligent dog folk, breeders and the rest.......how do you think that you will ever be able to change anything for the better this way.....? Sometimes we truly dont' see the forrest for the trees, it seems.

My first ever dog forum - for my first ever problems. It might be my last....but - I need to be here right now - and I need all of you, too. Don't let us possibly less experienced folk down here please.

I am here for my dogs....and I will quite happily lay my soul bare for them, here in public. My mistakes, my successes, ignorance....whatever it takes to get it right.

Edit: You can say what u like here (I have thick skin!) but the whole prey drive and PDrift - whilst it was a sort of shock for me initially - it ended up being no real mystery once I looked deeper, actually ....and I don't know if that's just me - because I am a nerdy scientist-type that analyses things to death - or not. It was like a whole "cascade" of 43yrs around dogs just "locked into place", for me, personally. I just don't think it's a very complicated thing to understand, for me (IMHO)....?

quoting you so you can't delete your woe is me post

[all creatures]

Here is a sad story (for me anyway) when regularly browsing this topic, to read responses, I happened to see who else was reading the topic.

Some of the people I saw present - I would have really liked to hear from, in truth (even if no one else did - I did) But - they moved on - without comment.

Now I know why.....(and thanks greytmate, for eg, for being so brave....)

Maybe we should drop our ego's at the log in and just 'talk' about the big picture sometimes..?

Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling - and I don't even see it this bad on forums without a moderator......? Yup - behaviour begets behaviour and I find that I have responded, in like, and yes I am ashamed......lost my sense of humour also... (and I am no hyprocrite here - I have lost my PM rights - like the naughty child I was...) but I am not going to get sucked in anymore. Ever heard of "trolling"? Lots of it going on in this site..... and

Maybe it's no surprise, after all, the whole dog ownership thing and all..... is such a mess - such a lack of consensus and/or mature communication between the experts, intelligent dog folk, breeders and the rest.......how do you think that you will ever be able to change anything for the better this way.....? Sometimes we truly dont' see the forrest for the trees, it seems.

My first ever dog forum - for my first ever problems. It might be my last....but - I need to be here right now - and I need all of you, too. Don't let us possibly less experienced folk down here please.

I am here for my dogs....and I will quite happily lay my soul bare for them, here in public. My mistakes, my successes, ignorance....whatever it takes to get it right.

Edit: You can say what u like here (I have thick skin!) but the whole prey drive and PDrift - whilst it was a sort of shock for me initially - it ended up being no real mystery once I looked deeper, actually ....and I don't know if that's just me - because I am a nerdy scientist-type that analyses things to death - or not. It was like a whole "cascade" of 43yrs around dogs just "locked into place", for me, personally. I just don't think it's a very complicated thing to understand, for me (IMHO)....?

quoting you so you can't delete your woe is me post

Jesus - you are a worry. Why would I want to delete it? It's from my heart - I am not embarrassed? Should I be? Are you? A whole 60 or whatever posts? Is this something I should be ashamed of? How do earn my stars n stripes here? How sad - and this merely serves to illustrate my point - in-experienced folk need to be here -but folk like you - scare them all away. Who do u think pays the price at the end of the day......the dog...duhh? Love dogs? then help - don't criticise.

And you are the exact example of my comment above :

Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling

I rest my case and now - I would like to get back to the topic (and I am sure the same applies for others?) And don't call me a twit ever again - don't be so arrogant to presume you know me. Thank you.

Edited February 2, 2011 by all creatures

[all creatures]

you've been here 8 weeks and you are an expert on all things DOL

face it most people wouldn't bother replying to you cause you have no idea what you are talking about and keep going off on woe is me tangents

And you know what - that's just plain nasty. I have just as much right to be here as you. What a horrible attitude.

I can't even be bothered to "report this" - best of luck with your report mate.

[all creatures]

Anyway - I am guessing you test prey drives for a good reason Greytmate. Maybe one day there could be a serious go at this topic on DOL on the pin board (or whatever it is...??) I still think it's a really worthwhile topic. If trainers are not recognising it - maybe it's about time they did?

maybe you could have a look in other forums like the training one, you might find what you want there

Thanks for the tip. Hasn't been mentioned b4. I didn't think PDrift was a training issue as such - but will be sure to have a read. Please forgive my ignorance - I am still on my "L" plates and subject to bitch-drive maybe....must remember to stick my tail between my legs when I make a break for it....like now..I actually have lots of other animals n stuff to care for right now. Thanks for bashing my confidence around. Well done.

Anyway - come join a gardening forum any time you like.....very civilised.....and welcoming of new people. We don't actually have "post tallies" - why? I think they are dreadful myself. But there u go. A post of 5,000 doesn't make an expert - could be just someone who had too much time on their hands at the computer..it's a not necessarily a mark of validity/superiority IMHO.

Edited February 2, 2011 by all creatures

[Tentie Lover]

When the prey drive is triggered the dog will prick its ears up, and stare and stiffen up. But instead of putting its head up high, and being up on its toes like a dog would when trying to challenge another dog, the toes are planted firmly and the elbows are bent. The dog stares at the neck of the prey, so its neck will be low. The tail may be slightly up or slightly down or in between, and the tail may wag slowly or moderately, but not quickly or wildly. Or it may be held stiffly. The dog's heart rate quickens and adrenaline is released causing blood to be directed to the muscles and away from the brain. This means that the dog is less likely to be able to be distracted or impossible to distract. The dog is likely to be completely silent at this stage. The dog may sniff the air towards the prey, but not in a normal bum sniffing way, they are not interested in that end of the prey at all.

In my testing the dogs were safely restrained and so that is as far as it went. Then the test would be stopped before the huge lunge towards the prey. The dogs would sometimes bark in frustration at the prey when they realised that they were restrained from reaching it.

Many people would be completely unaware that their dog was even in prey drive until it took off. Even if you knew what to look for it would be too late. The way to manage prey drive is to prepare for it and avoid the triggers. Some training can be done, but that is a lot of work, and its not something that many trainers can even recognise, let alone deal with.

Three variations in prey drive are the amount or intensity of the drive, the type of trigger, and where that dog finishes its predatory sequence. So most prey drive is harmless and will stay harmless. Toy playing includes natural prey drive, greyhound racing is natural prey drive.

Ball fetching is prey drive, ball obsession is strong intensity of prey drive, ball destroying is a fuller sequence of prey drive.

In my opinion, dogs that display prey drive towards other dogs, or people, need to be strictly controlled in public. (Leashed or muzzled as well depending on how far that dog takes the sequence) Dogs like that should not be bred from as pets either. We just don't want dogs doing that to people.

I don't know if I like the term predatory drift either, but so far you haven't come up with any alternatives that I can understand.

Many years ago I saw this sequence played out with 2 GSDs and our 5 yr old daughter..............We were visiting neighbors and chatting while our daughter was throwing a ball for the dogs .........when suddenly I sensed that there was a change saw the two dogs herding my daughter away from us and the bitch stiffen and look intensely at our daughter........... just as she lunged I was able to shout an the bitch who luckily just skimmed my daughters ear and dropped to the ground..............it was extremely frightening how quickly it changed from play to something else.

Julie

[corvus]

Thank you for clarifying the Jaak list. It is a bit different from the ones I know. And it might be frustrating that it's not all that black and white with current level of knowledge about how brains work.

Well, I think it is reasonably clear. One of the reasons why Panksepp calls it SEEKING is because it is a general system. There is no such thing as motivational specificity in this system. That means we are talking about exactly the same chemicals and pathways whether we're talking about seeking food rewards or predatory behaviour. The consummatory phase, which is where the dog actually has the reward, is something else. The SEEKING system turns off at that point. More or less. It's not quite that simple, of course. The reason why Panksepp doesn't list a prey drive is because it falls under SEEKING, exactly the same as foraging behaviour in rats, and clicker training, as it happens. There have been some really cool studies that blew the whole motivational specificity idea out of the water, but it wasn't widly accepted. People liked the motivational specificity model. By "people" I mean "neuroscientists".

I think your "joke" was a little flat with me - because, like Huski, I think "prey drive" (Jaak might call it seeking - but I find this covers an awful lot of very different things in my head - not having access to his definition) can be trained and satisfied with something other than a live critter or even a bear for a bear hunting dog.

Assuming that there is no motivational specificity, how do you know that what you are satisfying is prey drive? It's a rhetorical science nerd kind of question. I think it's funny, but my sense of humour can get a bit on the esoteric side, too.

IMO the behaviour all creatures described with the GSD could just as easily be a mixture of territorial aggression and barrier frustration, thus having nothing to do with prey drive or predatory drift. When I was a kid we had a dog that lived next door who would fly at my dog at every opportunity. There are so many potential conditioning factors involved in that behaviour I would hesitate to label it and I saw it for myself. Without knowing a history it's hard to know what was driving the dog's behaviour when they move that fast. Arousal comes into play and will be reflected in the body language.

[SwaY]

Some of the behaviour on this site is appalling - and I don't even see it this bad on forums without a moderator......?

And yet after only 8 weeks you have had your PM's taken off you.

I'm no Saint, but even I haven't had mine removed.

I have lost my PM rights

[huski]

Ummm....because some of these folk are definitely ones who would very likely have even just a tiny bit of info to add here....? (Alot, in fact)

Are you serious?

We are lucky to have many experienced trainers on this website who post advice here - for free - and have absolutely no obligation to do so. You have no idea why someone people choose not to post in a thread. They could be busy, they may not have the free time it would take to post, they may be intending to come back later. They may have posted in several dozen topics of this very nature over the years and are sick of repeating themselves. Who knows!

There have been stacks of threads on prey drive particularly in the training forum. If you search for them you will find there have been many.

[Diva]

you've been here 8 weeks and you are an expert on all things DOL

face it most people wouldn't bother replying to you cause you have no idea what you are talking about and keep going off on woe is me tangents

And you know what - that's just plain nasty. I have just as much right to be here as you. What a horrible attitude.

I can't even be bothered to "report this" - best of luck with your report mate.

Rebanne was actually giving you some very good and accurate advice on how to encourage more replies to your posts. And she is certainly not a troll.

But nevermind, the 'ignore' button is such a handy feature.

[SwaY]

Jesus - you are a worry. Why would I want to delete it? It's from my heart - I am not embarrassed? Should I be? Are you? A whole 60 or whatever posts? Is this something I should be ashamed of? How do earn my stars n stripes here? How sad - and this merely serves to illustrate my point - in-experienced folk need to be here -but folk like you - scare them all away.

You don't earn them doing this...

Trying to ruin Rebanne's Happy Birthday Thread.

[Aidan3]

My entire male BC in an empty lot playing fetch with me - so very active (duhh..!?)

Big dog barking along an adjoining fence line for maybe 5 mins - didn't think anything of it - me or my boy.

A totally unexpected attack from the same dog - a very large pedigree GSD - that escaped this backyard.

The dog hurtled across the 20m at a speed that was mind blowing.

The dog had his tail fully erect, hackles up.

That is not an example of predatory drift.

Picture dogs playing happily, then the body language of one changes leading up to an attack which may or may not be fatal. e.g down at a friend's place with her 4 Borzoi, 2 GSDs, a small BC mix that a neighbour had found and was trying to locate the owner, and my Golden. All lovely, well socialised dogs who are used to playing in large groups. Dogs were all playing happily, then BC mix yips (in fun) and all of a sudden is being pursued by 4 Borzoi, 2 GSDs and a Golden Retriever, collectively looking like a pack of wolves pursuing a deer that had split off from it's herd.

Thankfully smaller dog is agile and there is plenty of "stuff" around giving us time to step in, whereby other dogs "switch off" very quickly and resume being the lovable family pets and show dogs that they were.

[Agility Dogs]

This is a very interesting subject and not something I was aware of. I've always though my boy's response to other dogs 'threatening' movement near and around him was fear based. 'I need to stop you doing that before you do something to me like that nasty dog did when I was a puppy.' BUT what has been described here also describes what I see in him and is really how I manage him.

Now I'm not so sure whether it is fear/defence or him switching into moving into heightened prey drive. I know he does have a high prey drive - you only have to watch his COMPLETE focus when he chases a frisbee or toy to see that. 98% of the time I can call him out of anything (off a frisbee, 1/2 way down a flyball lane, chasing birds, etc etc) but on the very rare occasions that he has TRULY switched on you could hit him with a sledge hammer and he wouldn't know.

It doesn't really matter because I manage him accordingly. I know situations he can't cope with and don't place him in those positions with dogs/other animals he doesn't know, but it is an interesting perspective.

Corvus, I think I am turning into a dog geek too!

Thanks for sharing.