Predatory Drift

[huski]

IMHO - your best bet when it comes to controlling your dogs prey drive is to teach it that the best way to get drive satisfaction is through looking to you and obeying your commands. A very prey driven dog who is not given an outlet for

It's drive can seek other ways to get drive satisfaction which can present itself in ways we don't like.

[corvus]

IMHO - your best bet when it comes to controlling your dogs prey drive is to teach it that the best way to get drive satisfaction is through looking to you and obeying your commands.

And learn to produce rats, pigeons or rabbits on demand, depending on what kind of dog you have. :D You might have to produce bears on demand for some!

[huski]

I don't get your point Corvus? Are you trying to imply that dogs can only have their prey drive satisfied with live animals?

[corvus]

I don't get your point Corvus?

That's 'cause I wasn't talking to you.

[huski]

You were quoting me, I hardly think it is unreasonable to ask exacty what you were trying to infer.

[corvus]

:D Clearly I hardly think I am obliged to answer or I would have the first time. As entertaining as this is for me, perhaps we should move on and actually discuss the topic for everyone else's benefit. I think level of drive has little to do with this issue. That's not to say it shouldn't be considered at all in safe play, but I think we've established that predatory drift is not related to a dog's drive.

Last week OH's parents came around with their little MinPin, Alex. Alex at one point started to whine and Erik went from mild interest in the tiny dog to "OMG, I'm gonna CHASE HIM! GO! GO!" in an instant. Thought I'd scoop up the little thing before Erik completely lost it and that was a mistake because it fired Erik up even more and he started jumping up trying to nip Alex. Erik has played with zillions of little dogs before and never shown anything like that behaviour. The only thing I could put it down to was the combination of size and the noise Alex was making. It was very much the look he gets about him when I do anything with the rabbit. He mostly ignores the rabbit, but if I pick her up or put her on the ground he gets the same look. After a couple of days he stopped getting excited by Alex's whiney noises. It's an interesting consideration. I'm sure I heard a trainer say that dogs instinctively know how to chase and capture prey, but they have to learn what is prey and what is not. I believe this in a general sense, but I wonder if it has any bearing on predatory drift. Supposedly not, but then, how can you know you've exposed your dog to every condition that might provoke a predatory response?

[huski]

Then why even post it in the first place Corvus? Apart from shit stirring and being your normal condescending self, of course.

My post was responding to All Creatures post above mine when she asked why you want to increase/use drive if you were trying to decrease it so I can't see how it was OT.

Edited February 2, 2011 by huski

[corvus]

Then why even post it in the first place Corvus? Apart from shit stirring and being your normal condescending self, of course.

I was cracking a joke. That's why there were winky and laughy emoticons. Did you know that's internet code for "this is funny and tongue in cheek"? And THAT'S me being condescending, which you bloody asked for! I wasn't talking to you because you were determined to take it seriously. :D To me, it's funny on several levels, and I hope there is some dog nerd out there that appreciates it on as many levels as I do. ;)

D'ya think we can move on, now? I wasn't trying to shit stir or somehow keep you out of a big secret. I was just being ironic. I know from experience trying to explain anything to you is like giving you a blank piece of paper with my signature on the bottom. You fill in the blanks. (There's that winky again. That means I'm kidding around).

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

From what I read on the net about "predatory drift" - I think I'd rather call it "predatory (brain) snap" ie it's not a drift like a boat floating on the current. What I read said something along the lines of the dog's "prey drive" was triggered by things not obvious to the observer (or they could prevent) and the dog would hunt, pounce on and kill whatever was the target of its attention (drive). Eg SWF or cats or squealling running children...

It's completely scary to think that my dog could have that kind of "brain snap", when she does like hunting but isn't very good at the "kill" side of it. And that I couldn't teach her that it's ok to kill mice and grasshoppers but not SWF, urban rabbits, cats or children.

I don't know how you could separate "predatory drift" as described here

http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2...predatory-drift

from prey drive.

Is odd they show a herding dog, though I always thought that herding dogs were operating in "prey drive" not "herding drive".

The types of drive I learned about were "food drive", "play drive", "pack drive", "prey drive" and "rank drive"

Not sure where the dog is at if it is defending itself. "survival drive" (fight/flight/freeze)?

Predatory drift is described a little better here

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/games-dogs-play

eg a big dog chasing a smaller dog in play may "drift into a predatory state of mind"...personally what I have observed seems much faster than that. eg snap not drift.

[SpotTheDog]

Would I be right in saying that in layman's terms, 'predatory drift' is basically the 'any dog can turn' argument, but specific to own-species aggression?

I can see why it gets people upset. We all want to believe our dog would never, could never, so on. I sincerely hope my dog does never! Still though, perhaps I'm just mean but I find myself naturally untrusting of my dog. I've posted here before that Gus is the first dog I've had as an adult, and unfortunately while he's a good dog mainly, he does exhibit tendencies that I wasn't prepared for (but have now accepted and am working on with him).

All that is a part of the reason (outside the obvious) that I invested in pet insurance - for the million dollar public liability indemnity...

[Loopy Lola]

From what I read on the net about "predatory drift" - I think I'd rather call it "predatory (brain) snap" ie it's not a drift like a boat floating on the current. What I read said something along the lines of the dog's "prey drive" was triggered by things not obvious to the observer (or they could prevent) and the dog would hunt, pounce on and kill whatever was the target of its attention (drive). Eg SWF or cats or squealling running children...

It's completely scary to think that my dog could have that kind of "brain snap", when she does like hunting but isn't very good at the "kill" side of it. And that I couldn't teach her that it's ok to kill mice and grasshoppers but not SWF, urban rabbits, cats or children.

I don't know how you could separate "predatory drift" as described here

http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2...predatory-drift

from prey drive.

Is odd they show a herding dog, though I always thought that herding dogs were operating in "prey drive" not "herding drive".

The types of drive I learned about were "food drive", "play drive", "pack drive", "prey drive" and "rank drive"

Not sure where the dog is at if it is defending itself. "survival drive" (fight/flight/freeze)?

Predatory drift is described a little better here

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/games-dogs-play

eg a big dog chasing a smaller dog in play may "drift into a predatory state of mind"...personally what I have observed seems much faster than that. eg snap not drift.

I believe one of my dogs has this and agree it isn't so much a drift as instant snap ! He does have certain triggers which I watch him like a hawk for and if I'm not able to be right on top of him then in certain situations the dogs are put away in my bedroom or study !

Like GM said ......just because a dog seems calm and is wagging his tail doesn't mean all is ok .....I get literally a second to notice the look in his eye and his body seems to stiffen right before an attack , no sound .....and he will and has killed small mice , rabbits , guinea pigs etc .

I just have to manage him very carefully as I don't think there is a cure/fix as such .........he only started to display this behaviour around 2 years of age ......up until then he was absolutely perfect with all foster animals , kitttens , cats , small dogs , rabbits etc .

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Where is Steve when you want him...

The answer for predatory drift/snap would be a dog that you've trained to go into "prey drive" on command and to recall while in "prey drive" ie if you can turn it on and off when you want and you spend some time making sure the dog gets to exercise its prey drive everyday then it would be more manageable if they got triggered by a squealling fluffy or you could even train your dog to ignore a squealling SWF.

I have trained my dog to ignore cars, bikes, running squealling children, joggers. Though we're still working on ignoring joggers (not that she touches them, it's just a lot of barking), and cats and possums and horses.

[Loopy Lola]

Funny thing is .....he is 99 % of the time such a lovely , calm placid boy ......not at all interested in squeaky toys , chasing balls etc . Loves our own cats and never chases them , great with the kids and generally big lazy doofus that doesn't even like alot of exercise . He is a 6 year old wolfhound x greyhound x and a big mummies boy who is reasonably well trained already . However , when he goes into the zone .....it's like he doesn't even know you are there and will redirect the aggression onto anyone who tries to grab him if they aim for the bitey end .

The only thing I can link to the start of this behaviour ( apart from his instincts kicking in once he reached maturity ) is I had just had a baby and a couple of lads were breaking into our house .......I let the dogs out and the GSD stayed by me barking and Buddy took off after them and got a kicking in the process but he just went back at the guy even harder . One of his triggers is young males smelling of alchohol wearing white trainers that run or get loud around him

[corvus]

I don't know how you could separate "predatory drift" as described here

http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2...predatory-drift

from prey drive.

Well, if I may offer an opinion or two, I think the point is that normally quite low drive dogs could experience predatory drift. This is one of the reasons I hate the term "drive", but the fact is there is no broadly accepted definition for it. There's no way most people who "train in drive" on this forum would look at my Lapphund and gather that he has much prey drive. He is mellow and chilled and slow. But I've seen him get that glazed look in his eye and go to la-la land the instant he saw a duck take wing, for example. I am not satisfied with the way drive is talked about. I don't think it is nearly descriptive enough of the various ways a dog may behave when engaging in a FAP or is highly aroused. So my thought is if we're talking about a moment in which the dog is "in drive", then there is no difference, but if we're talking about a dog that is often "in drive", particularly prey drive, then there is a difference.

The types of drive I learned about were "food drive", "play drive", "pack drive", "prey drive" and "rank drive"

Not sure where the dog is at if it is defending itself. "survival drive" (fight/flight/freeze)?

No one much talks about drive outside of dog trainers. There is a huge variety in the types of drives recognised and a huge variety in how those drives are defined. It makes it very hard to talk about it IME. Everyone has their own list. The only definitive list I know of is Jaak Panksepp's list, which is based firmly in neuroscience and doesn't use anything like the above nomenclature. Personally, I think everyone should adopt it and bloody well learn what it's all about, because there is no literature anywhere else that gives a better understanding of behaviour IMHO. And geez it would be nice if everyone was talking about the same thing.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Corvus

I don't know everything you know, and I suspect sometimes I'd argue with you about what you know anyway. Some of what you write makes assumptions about what I (or anyone else reading) knows that are not valid.

my Lapphund and gather that he has much prey drive. He is mellow and chilled and slow. But I've seen him get that glazed look in his eye and go to la-la land the instant he saw a duck take wing, for example

So he has prey drive, it's just the trigger is obscure or difficult to use on cue.

What is an FAP?

I googled Jaak Panksepp and I can't find a list as you describe, do you have a link or do I have to get his book (which one)?

Paul McGreevy actually described "training in drive" as old hat in his book "A modern dog's life". Susan Garrett talks about "drivey dogs", I think she means dogs that get very excited easily. She definitely likes to get a dog excited as part of training and competition runs. I find if I can "fire my dog up" and get her excited, she works much harder.

To me, drive describes an excited motivated dog, and the type of drive is what she's looking for to "satisfy the drive" so it is different things at different times. What some dog trainers talk about is "triggering the drive" ie training the dog to be excited on cue. And to provide reward based on which drive the dog is in. If it's excited about food - reward with food, if it's excited about herding sheep - reward with more sheep herding...

I've accidentally trained a drive trigger, working off her natural (untrained) behaviour eg - sitting her at the back door, opening it and then calling "puss puss puss", gets me one fired up dog. Note - she's never hurt a cat, but she does love chasing the ones that run.

[corvus]

Corvus

I don't know everything you know, and I suspect sometimes I'd argue with you about what you know anyway. Some of what you write makes assumptions about what I (or anyone else reading) knows that are not valid.

Oh really? What's not valid? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or cause trouble. I have difficulties with drive as a concept and it's no secret. That is based on research, pure and simple. And the fact that I seem to spend a lot of time asking people what they mean by drive before we go any further. It is intensely interesting to me and I'm always looking for literature on it and chatting to clever folks about it. I'd be delighted to know if I'm making assumptions that are invalid. I've thought damn hard about this for years. It would suck to be thinking damn hard about something while missing the underlying principles.

my Lapphund and gather that he has much prey drive. He is mellow and chilled and slow. But I've seen him get that glazed look in his eye and go to la-la land the instant he saw a duck take wing, for example

So he has prey drive, it's just the trigger is obscure or difficult to use on cue.

My point was drive isn't always easy to pin down. My intention is to point out that any definition of predatory drift that includes "prey drive" could be interpreted a number of ways. I'm not gonna speculate on my dog's prey drive here. I've learnt my lesson, thanks.

What is an FAP?

Fixed Action Pattern, i.e. instinctive behaviour.

I googled Jaak Panksepp and I can't find a list as you describe, do you have a link or do I have to get his book (which one)?

The list is SEEKING, RAGE, PANIC, PLAY, LUST, CARE and FEAR. Sorry, I don't have a link. I'm sure there's a paper of his that goes through the first four somewhere on the web for free, but I don't have the paper or a link to it. I seem to remember it's a bit hard to find. He published something last year on FEAR.

[all creatures]

Phew!! I am glad my gardening forums are not this full on!? Veggies much more Zen...

For what it's worth: here is my in-experienced impression of the important stuff (IMHO):

One of the important points of Predatory Drift is that it is *not common* (as far as I can tell) so not a reason to panic - just another tool in our kit, in understanding and educating people about their dogs, and specific breeds of dogs maybe? (just in case casual readers are getting freaked out by the topic here...)

The second point is that it seems to be a *size issue*? - a dog that only has high prey drive for little critters is not the same thing as another dog taking on something it's own size or larger (unless perhaps that dog has been specifically trained to take down larger animals maybe?....not sure there) My SBT likes rabbits - doesn't mean she will attack and kill the neighbours fully grown goats......or another dog her same size or larger, for eg. (Maybe that falls into "aggression" territory?) and no - she doesn't. She is totally submissive to other dogs - even other bitches, in fact.

But maybe that's why small dogs and children are often the unwitting 'accidents' also.... there seems to be a pattern there...?

It is more likely to occur, more often, with certain breeds. For eg: how often do read about a BC killing another dog, child etc? It seems that the book/DVD in the OP may address some of these issues. If you are hunting pigs - would you use a BC, for example....if the suit fits, wear it..? It's not rocket science perhaps?

There can be other factors at play too though - like 2, or more, dogs working in concert, an ill or injured dog around etc, also. Eg 2 'medium' dogs may attack one small child - but one dog on it's own less likely....? Just guessing there tho' - in the absence of our more expert forumites.....

If you google dog attacks - you will find some really interesting patterns.

HPDrive - I have been here with my own SBT - and have had only recent cause to doubt her. I was one of those ignorant HPDrive dog owners, and I am not embarrassed to say this. I say it because I can see, now, how sad accidents can happen with HPDrive dogs. I have been shocked by my own ignorance. Grown up with dogs all my life - but not HPDrive breeds. How many other people are out there like me? Or worse - this is their first dog ever....?

Fortunately for us - it's going to work out because now we are informed (and we had a set of very fortunate factors at play here, including her breeder). I am going to go out (very far) on a limb here and highlight a personal observation for us - for my dog in a family situation (as promoted) - YES - without a shadow of doubt. On a rural property where tempatation is ever-present (but rarely accessible)....maybe it's not fair to expect her to be an angel when it comes to 'little critters'.....forewarned is forearmed. She is "primed" now and that's all there is to it.

I don't find PDrift scary - what I do find scary is that we don't always talk honestly about these things. And we should because it's possible your favourite breed could get banned ... and that's sad.

Anyway I have to end on a high note here because in researching dog attacks etc I came across some horrific stuff that really upset me

Here is a link to a big and small dog at 'healthy play' (owned by some dog expert..) - and I think it's just lovely..

(ps corvus - i got the joke...)

[corvus]

The second point is that it seems to be a *size issue*? - a dog that only has high prey drive for little critters is not the same thing as another dog taking on something it's own size or larger (unless perhaps that dog has been specifically trained to take down larger animals maybe?....not sure there) My SBT likes rabbits - doesn't mean she will attack and kill the neighbours fully grown goats......or another dog her same size or larger, for eg. (Maybe that falls into "aggression" territory?) and no - she doesn't. She is totally submissive to other dogs - even other bitches, in fact.

Haha, I kind of alluded to this in the now infamous joke. I read this interesting paper about predatory behaviour in Elkhounds towards sheep and BCs towards sheep. The point was made that Elkhounds were bred to hunt very large animals and so may show more interest in something the size of a sheep than something the size of a mouse, and conversely, a rat terrier is unlikely to be as interested in sheep as they are in rats. There are dog breeds that have also been bred to hunt bears. It makes me wonder about the nature of prey drive in different breeds.

There can be other factors at play too though - like 2, or more, dogs working in concert, an ill or injured dog around etc, also. Eg 2 'medium' dogs may attack one small child - but one dog on it's own less likely....? Just guessing there tho' - in the absence of our more expert forumites.....

I think so.

Love Sophia Yin! She knows her stuff. I want her book, but it's too expensive. I have a birthday coming up, though.

(ps corvus - i got the joke...)

[all creatures]

I know a lot about prey drive in dogs, and have tested many dogs for prey drive towards other animals and dogs.

I don't know about drift, but I think that many people have no idea what prey drive looks like, what might trigger it, and so are surprised when their dog acts out of prey drive.

Is the prey drive suddenly switched on, or is it that there was never the right trigger before?

Just because a dog is wagging his tail and standing still quietly doesn't mean he is being a good boy.

Anyone using an aggressive stafford bitch for breeding family pets is unethical, whether the aggression is predatory or other.

Greytmate I have read many of your posts (and nekhbets) on this topic - and I have found them really interesting

Can you describe what prey drive looks like at all please? or maybe even a video? (but that one may be a big ask, I realise..)

I 'think' I have witnessed PDrift first hand - but not sure - maybe just an aggressive dog. Maybe you might like to comment? This is what I witnessed:

My entire male BC in an empty lot playing fetch with me - so very active (duhh..!?)

Big dog barking along an adjoining fence line for maybe 5 mins - didn't think anything of it - me or my boy.

A totally unexpected attack from the same dog - a very large pedigree GSD - that escaped this backyard.

The dog hurtled across the 20m at a speed that was mind blowing.

The dog had his tail fully erect, hackles up.

His eyes were entirely focussed on my dog and his stare did not waver for one millisecond - (even though I was yelling my head off, waving my arms etc)

His run was low and focussed, not bounding etc...

He went straight for the neck hold on my BC and would not stop.

The owner was home (thank god..) and raced out but could not call his dog off verbally. He was forced to physically intervene. Owner was very, very shaken.

Also - does the "drift" part mean a drift in their target-prey? (ie from rabbits to small dogs for eg)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Corvus

You write some very esoteric stuff assuming everybody will know what you're talking about. That's what I mean about an invalid assumption.

Thank you for clarifying the Jaak list. It is a bit different from the ones I know. And it might be frustrating that it's not all that black and white with current level of knowledge about how brains work.

I think your "joke" was a little flat with me - because, like Huski, I think "prey drive" (Jaak might call it seeking - but I find this covers an awful lot of very different things in my head - not having access to his definition) can be trained and satisfied with something other than a live critter or even a bear for a bear hunting dog. You really don't need the bear. Like with the lappie - you might not want to do this but I'm sure there would be a way of triggering his excitement with something that looks somewhat like a duck taking flight but not an actual duck, and this could be transfered to something more manageable like a feathered tug toy.

All creatures

Also - does the "drift" part mean a drift in their target-prey? (ie from rabbits to small dogs for eg)

Not on the pages about predatory drift that I read. It was more like a dog is in a playful state of mind chasing a small dog and drifts (or snaps) into a predatory state of mind, ie the SWF switches in the mind of the pursuing dog from play mate dog, to prey.

I think the big dog barking along the fence was never in a "playful state of mind" to drift into a predatory one, I think it was always thinking to attack/kill the BC.

Like I wrote before - I think in this context "drift" is not the best choice of word. And I would have to agree with Corvus, it's not all that well defined in the first place.