Sandra777 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Sandra, I'm sorry to say that I am taking your attitude with a grain of salt and not even bothering to read them. If you have problems with being open and transparent and being subjected to scrutiny - that's your choice - please stop trying to convince me otherwise I am wanting a system that expects people to back up their claims with actual proof and I'm the one not interested in being open and transparent and thesubject of scrutiny, pal I think you're a little overcome with your own self importance. Not replying here any more, one of the dogs has just been rushed to the vet after messing with a 2 metre brown snake - I really don't give a toss what happens to the CCCQ's accredited breeder's scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Just back from the airport. Wags what is your involvement in the dog world ?. Are you a breeder, a shower. You seem to have a very small grasp of the showing and breeding world. How many litters have you bred ?. Wags, what's the point of having an accredited breeder scheme when you have people that should not be accredited, already accredited. This is something that should be earned. I have suggested something that could easily be implemented by Dog Qld. None of the experienced breeders have anything to fear from Dogs Queensland. You can't have an accredited breeder scheme when you have breeders, breeding for profit and profit alone. No puppies sold for showing, now thats not for the betterment of the breed. We breeders breed for the betterment of the breed and to produce puppies that are as close as possible to the standard. If the puppies that you breed are NEVER assessed in the show ring how do you know that your breeding is conforming to the standard. Many of us are objecting to being lumped in with these breeders. As I said prior......everyone join the accredited scheme and we are all accredited breeders and on the same footing. Now we are all the same as we were before. Back to square one. If this accredited breeders scheme was introduced to sort the wheat from the chaff, well it's not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) i went to a show on the weekend and i saw lots of dogs that were dyed and powdered to within an inch of their lives (and they won)...not sure what showing under those conditions proves Edited February 1, 2011 by Jaxx'sBuddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Wags It's such a pity, in my eyes anyway, that so many breeders can't embrace it openly and I must admit I do wonder what their problem is and what they must be afraid of. I still say that Dogs Queensland are actually 'doing' something about improving the standards through their accreditation process and that is brave and proactive. I did say to my partner that this will certainly sort out a few unethical and irresponsible breeders. Frankly if I were Dogs Queensland I would have a tendency to be reading the reaction as one which might well indicate the need for a mandatory accreditation scheme for all registered breeders. Perhaps the "problem" of those breeders is that they have had a very good look at the ABS, and decided it was not for them. As I did. And whilst you are braying about those who oppose your views re the scheme as being dodgy and not wanting random inspections, I would remind you that I am the poor sod who had the random unexpected RSPCA inspection at 5am, and got a couple of gold stars from them. I told you earlier why I would not join. Attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you and calling them "dodgy" is the usual method of repudiation of those who have no valid arguments. If you are a typical example of an accredited breeder, and you believe what you have written here, you are simply reinforcing my opinion, and thanks for that. And breeding dogs has NEVER been an industry. I have no idea why you would think it is, maybe you have mistaken it for tin can manufacturing, which is indeed an industry? I have never heard anyone in any country - except you - either member or committee - refer to the fancy as an industry. That in my opinion, is nearly as bad as "companion animal" although the connotations are much worse. OI, SANDRA - hope your dogs are ok - thinking of them. Good luck Edited February 1, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMonaro Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 What , you're packing your bat and ball already and going off in a huff, as the some breeders won't swallow the pill as intended NOPE, I've just accepted that those too frightened of being subjected to scrutiny will condemn anyone who has the courage to stand up and be counted. All I see written here is a reaction to fear of discovery. Belittle, discount, condemn and take all steps to destroy something which is threatening to you. I'm a much more positive person than to choose to become part of that. And yes, I'M AN ACCREDITED BREEDER !!!!!! AND PROUD OF IT. Can you say that No I didin't think so. No... but I'm not afraid to stand up and say ...... I'm an ETHICAL breeder and proud of it I dont find the new system threatening at all. All my dogs have health checks, all results are here should any "official" wish to view them - dogs that have not passed are desexed and rehomed. I've read the accreditation scheme and yes I can tick all the boxes....... but , and everyone keeps saying its $22....but its not just that fee - its the advertising fees as well to go into Dog World (as this is also one of the requirements). Not everyone can keep affording to pull money out of nowhere all the time. Unethical breeders are still going to become accredited and anyone that doesnt beleive this can happen is seriously kidding themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanbrook Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 It's such a pity, in my eyes anyway, that so many breeders can't embrace it openly and I must admit I do wonder what their problem is and what they must be afraid of. Wags I can see that you have totally ignored the views of experienced breeders expressed here. Of course you know better, know more than anyone else. Especially those old, stupid breeders who know nothing. Good luck to you. Not just "experienced" Lowenhart, but four of them who have made comments in this thread, I absolutely admire and consider they set the benchmark when it comes to breeding practices , welfare and producing quality dogs. Yes it makes it hard if you are being mentored by long term outstanding breeders who refuse to except the new system. As a new breeder with only 15 years experience with my breed i can see the value in it but how can all that experience of my mentors be disregarded and if i do disregard them who writes the references???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanbrook Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) What , you're packing your bat and ball already and going off in a huff, as the some breeders won't swallow the pill as intended NOPE, I've just accepted that those too frightened of being subjected to scrutiny will condemn anyone who has the courage to stand up and be counted. All I see written here is a reaction to fear of discovery. Belittle, discount, condemn and take all steps to destroy something which is threatening to you. I'm a much more positive person than to choose to become part of that. And yes, I'M AN ACCREDITED BREEDER !!!!!! AND PROUD OF IT. Can you say that No I didin't think so. Please dont say that...The road got tough so you folded..Is that what an accredited Breeder should do when put under pressure??? I hope not. You had me for the whole thread till now!!! Now you look like a week jerk that has just proven all these negative responses just may have some credibility to them. Shame on your accreditation. Edited February 1, 2011 by Swanbrook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 What , you're packing your bat and ball already and going off in a huff, as the some breeders won't swallow the pill as intended NOPE, I've just accepted that those too frightened of being subjected to scrutiny will condemn anyone who has the courage to stand up and be counted. All I see written here is a reaction to fear of discovery. Belittle, discount, condemn and take all steps to destroy something which is threatening to you. I'm a much more positive person than to choose to become part of that. And yes, I'M AN ACCREDITED BREEDER !!!!!! AND PROUD OF IT. Can you say that No I didin't think so. Would you please explain to this forum why you are proud to be lumped in with a whole heap of puppy farmers. Some of those that are ethical would prefer to run a mile. It has also been mentioned and quite rightly so that this also is aliened to advertising in the Queensland Dog World. The Queensland Dog World basically goes to it's members, most of whom know where to purchase a pure bred dog. I would much rather pay my money to DOL where the world can see my advertising thank you. Please don't tell me that you can see advertising on the Dog's Qld. web site, most purchasers don't know Dog's Qld exist let alone have a web page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Dog breeding, by registered breeders, was basically a hobby & a passionate interest. Aimed to develop purebreeds according to a standard. Selling puppies as pets was seen to be secondary. But these days there's scrutiny about puppies being sold. From the point of view of consumer confidence & animal welfare. Calling the work of registered breeders an 'industry' seems to miss the point of it being a passionate interest in breed development. But, if puppies are sold are pets, that aspect takes it to the edges of the commercial world. Where it's more like a professional practice than just a hobby. So the sale of puppies is like a 'cottage industry'. So these days it's hard to escape some measures of regulation. Most of the professions have self-regulation based on accreditation. What the group believe is needed to do the job reasonably & which is open to on-going monitoring. If you work in one of the professions, you just take this for granted. I can understand why there's moves to develop a system of accreditation for dog breeding. There's already an excellent set of ethical guidelines for practice set out by Dogs Qld. Accreditation is just formalising that into a transparent system, and stressing things like mentoring for getting those guidelines into practice. Accreditation doesn't produced canonised saints. It just provides a framework for what is required & a way of monitoring what happens on the ground. All this seems to be understandable growing pains between breeding as a hobby... & breeding as profession which supplies something to the public. Of course, good breeders were good breeders, long before talk of accreditation. Just as good teachers were good teachers, long before they required registration based on accreditation. But that's no argument against the need for general accreditation standards. I've got no problem with the label 'companion animals' for pet dogs. It underlines how pet dogs live side by side with people in their everyday life. Which has implications for how puppies are bred & raised in their early weeks. Edited February 2, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) the problem with the accreditation scheme is that there is little confidence in it from the beginning because some of the accredited breeders are seen as less than ethical. one of them is advertising on their web site that they will be selling puppies under aapbd rules and without ankc papers Edited February 2, 2011 by Jaxx'sBuddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) the problem with the accreditation scheme is that there is little confidence in it from the beginning because some of the accredited breeders are seen as less than ethical. one of them is advertising on their web site that they will be selling puppies under aapbd rules and without ankc papers Accreditation can be given....& taken away. The grounds on which it can be revoked need to be written into any accreditation program. Then, whomsoever monitors the system can, quite legally, strip an individual of that privilege. 'Struck off' the accredited members register. Edited February 2, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 the problem with the accreditation scheme is that there is little confidence in it from the beginning because some of the accredited breeders are seen as less than ethical. one of them is advertising on their web site that they will be selling puppies under aapbd rules and without ankc papers Accreditation can be given....& taken away. The grounds on which it can be revoked need to be written into any accreditation program. Then, whomsoever monitors the system can, quite legally, strip an individual of that privilege. 'Struck off' the accredited members register. i would like to report this breeder, how do i do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 the problem with the accreditation scheme is that there is little confidence in it from the beginning because some of the accredited breeders are seen as less than ethical. one of them is advertising on their web site that they will be selling puppies under aapbd rules and without ankc papers Accreditation can be given....& taken away. The grounds on which it can be revoked need to be written into any accreditation program. Then, whomsoever monitors the system can, quite legally, strip an individual of that privilege. 'Struck off' the accredited members register. i would like to report this breeder, how do i do this? Processes around questioning/losing accreditation, need to be written into any such system, equally with the processes for gaining accreditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Dog breeding, by registered breeders, was basically a hobby & a passionate interest. Aimed to develop purebreeds according to a standard. Selling puppies as pets was seen to be secondary. But these days there's scrutiny about puppies being sold. From the point of view of consumer confidence & animal welfare. Calling the work of registered breeders an 'industry' seems to miss the point of it being a passionate interest in breed development. But, if puppies are sold are pets, that aspect takes it to the edges of the commercial world. Where it's more like a professional practice than just a hobby. So the sale of puppies is like a 'cottage industry'. So these days it's hard to escape some measures of regulation. Most of the professions have self-regulation based on accreditation. What the group believe is needed to do the job reasonably & which is open to on-going monitoring. If you work in one of the professions, you just take this for granted. I can understand why there's moves to develop a system of accreditation for dog breeding. There's already an excellent set of ethical guidelines for practice set out by Dogs Qld. Accreditation is just formalising that into a transparent system, and stressing things like mentoring for getting those guidelines into practice. Accreditation doesn't produced canonised saints. It just provides a framework for what is required & a way of monitoring what happens on the ground. All this seems to be understandable growing pains between breeding as a hobby... & breeding as profession which supplies something to the public. Of course, good breeders were good breeders, long before talk of accreditation. Just as good teachers were good teachers, long before they required registration based on accreditation. But that's no argument against the need for general accreditation standards. I've got no problem with the label 'companion animals' for pet dogs. It underlines how pet dogs live side by side with people in their everyday life. Which has implications for how puppies are bred & raised in their early weeks. Mita I think that most breeders have no objection to an accredited breeders scheme. What the objection is , ....is that it is self accredited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. What we are saying I think, is, to say that accreditation should be earned not self assessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Mita I think that most breeders have no objection to an accredited breeders scheme. What the objection is , ....is that it is self accredited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If it consists only of someone appraising themselves... that's self-report. The external body deciding to accredit or not, needs to have evidence that what's self-reported is reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 the problem with the accreditation scheme is that there is little confidence in it from the beginning because some of the accredited breeders are seen as less than ethical. one of them is advertising on their web site that they will be selling puppies under aapbd rules and without ankc papers Accreditation can be given....& taken away. The grounds on which it can be revoked need to be written into any accreditation program. Then, whomsoever monitors the system can, quite legally, strip an individual of that privilege. 'Struck off' the accredited members register. i would like to report this breeder, how do i do this? Processes around questioning/losing accreditation, need to be written into any such system, equally with the processes for gaining accreditation. so does this mean there is nothing i can do at this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajacadoo Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You know I've had a thought... Maybe, just maybe, DogsQld, (or CCCQ), might be on the right track... Perhaps they are thinking that all the 'dodgy' breeders will join the new 'forward-thinking' Accreditation System, leaving all the 'ethical' breeders out of this scheme, with just the normal registration Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 so does this mean there is nothing i can do at this time? Why would you ask me that? That's the question you ask of the accrediting body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You know I've had a thought...Maybe, just maybe, DogsQld, (or CCCQ), might be on the right track... Perhaps they are thinking that all the 'dodgy' breeders will join the new 'forward-thinking' Accreditation System, leaving all the 'ethical' breeders out of this scheme, with just the normal registration Just saying... Well, I just said in my first post, I'm puzzled why that accreditation system wasn't formulated to apply to all. As it now stands, it's a bit like the Heart Foundation tick that's applied for, on certain foods. Just means that an application was made for these. So I've also said, it still means that people buying puppies have to follow their own noses to find what they believe is the most genuine breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Mita I'd only wonder why the whole shaboozle of accreditation isn't included with basic registration as a breeder anyway. And why it's presently, the extra mile for those who are willing. Maybe they didn't want to drag anyone kicking & screaming into a system they're not keen on. You know, most of the things " accredited breeders" undertake are already asked for in Dogsqld COE and have been undertaken by 90% of registered breeders in Q for years. And some of the people who would be prepared to mentor would probably know less than those they are mentoring ..... I've been lucky enough to have had top breeders as mentors, and I've been told absolute codswallop by some who have been breeding for years. And I don't think I know enough to mentor someone, so why would I agree to that? If you see your hobby as an industry, or a money making exercise, maybe you are inclined to want to be accredited, so you can charge more, or so your hordes of buyers will think you are flash. I don't see much point. And I wont stand beside someone whose ethics (or lack thereof ) make me want to spit. I must be in the CCCQ to register pups, and if people there make me spit, I can't help it, and at least I can stand away from them. However, there is more benefit at present from breeding non registered pups than registered. The majority of pups are bred by people who are not registered with anyone anyhow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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