C.c.c. Qld's New Breeder Accredited System

[Crisovar]

Doesn't Accreditation in fact PROVE the breeder is preferred by the CCC its self.....? Surely the CCC wouldnt support bad breeders?

:laugh: :rofl:

Accreditation proves the applicant is willing to pay a fee.

I dont think that is correct as i have looked into the paperwork and their is more involved than simply paying money. It would take lies from a vet and other proffessionals to slip the system. And Sandra i dont think this is a laughing matter!!! It affects everyone in qld. You may laugh but i wonder what it is you are laughing at. All the time and money people put into produceing their dogs is not to be laughed at. a billion dollar industry. Perhaps to you it is a hobby but most devote their lives to produce and be the best they can be.

My HOBBY was striving to breed the very best I could, it was never a BUSINESS, it was done for the satisfaction and enjoyment it gave. Do not confuse hobby with unethical or second rate.

ETA and whilst I was doing just that it was my life.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Crisovar

[Swanbrook]

OK i dont think you see my point!!! Read below and it mentions the PUBLIC yes the one buying pups!!!! This is who the system is for!!!!! not the breeders...

" We have been gathering information from the surveys since September 2009. Our

intention was to find out what breeders do and how those practices are perceived by

the buying public. The results of the survey from September 2009 to February 2010

were presented at the General Meeting in March. In its own small way, the survey

has produced enough data to establish that most of our member breeders are

conforming with and surpassing Dogs Queensland Rules and Regulations and Code

of Ethics."

So again i ask if you are not accredited why would a member of the public buy a dog from you????????because its cheaper????

I breed to keep... but i am still going to have to home a litter of puppies. That means working with the needs of the public.

OK maybe this is the way of the new Generation of responsible breeders.

But I too also rely on the experience and knowledge of other long term Champion producers and i thank them for that.

Edited January 30, 2011 by BigW

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

OK i dont think you see my point!!! Read below and it mentions the PUBLIC yes the one buying pups!!!! This is who the system is for!!!!! not the breeders...

" We have been gathering information from the surveys since September 2009. Our

intention was to find out what breeders do and how those practices are perceived by

the buying public. The results of the survey from September 2009 to February 2010

were presented at the General Meeting in March. In its own small way, the survey

has produced enough data to establish that most of our member breeders are

conforming with and surpassing Dogs Queensland Rules and Regulations and Code

of Ethics."

So again i ask if you are not accredited why would a member of the public buy a dog from you????????

well the public will because they don't know any better.

given kennel clubs don't appears to kick out dodgy members anyway, what makes you think they don't have dodgy accredited breeders?

eta i wonder if a member of the public has any come back to cccq if they buy an ill dog from a dodgy accredited member?

Edited January 30, 2011 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Sandra777]

I dont think that is correct as i have looked into the paperwork and their is more involved than simply paying money.

It would take lies from a vet and other proffessionals to slip the system.

What "other proffessionals"??? A reference from your vet is the only requirement from a professional , whoop whoop. A reference about what. Mr ABC brings me puppies once a month for vaccination and pays their account on time is a reference.

"Reference" from another breeder - the other breeder doesn't have to be accredited or have any experience or any qualification other than they managed to fluke their way through a stupid open book test and managed to think up a prefix no one else had registered. Of the two, the latter is the harder one.

References from 2 puppy buyers. Is it OK if they're my mum and my brother? Is it OK if the pups are only 10 weeks old (owners of 10 week old puppies almost always think the breeder of their puppy is great). Is it OK if the puppy buyers actually have no clue at all that they have been ripped off big time for substandard animals at inflated prices?

And Sandra i dont think this is a laughing matter!!! It affects everyone in qld. You may laugh but i wonder what it is you are laughing at. All the time and money people put into produceing their dogs is not to be laughed at. a billion dollar industry. Perhaps to you it is a hobby but most devote their lives to produce and be the best they can be.

Your faith in the system is what I am laughing at.

I have spent the last 32 years and more money than I even want to consider improving the health and temperament of my chosen breed to say nothing of the physical soundness of the dogs I breed.

There is nothing in the accredited breeders scheme that requires people to breed from dogs which have been health tested, are mentally sound, even vaguely represent the breed they are meant to in any way shape or form. No knowledge of the breed is required AT ALL.

Not sure how your 15 years of maybe thinking about perhaps owning a dog I might breed from qualifies you to even begin to judge a system you patently do not understand.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Sandra777

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I dont think that is correct as i have looked into the paperwork and their is more involved than simply paying money.

It would take lies from a vet and other proffessionals to slip the system.

What "other proffessionals"??? A reference from your vet is the only requirement from a professional , whoop whoop. A reference about what. Mr ABC brings me puppies once a month for vaccination and pays their account on time is a reference.

"Reference" from another breeder - the other breeder doesn't have to be accredited or have any experience or any qualification other than they managed to fluke their way through a stupid open book test and managed to think up a prefix no one else had registered. Of the two, the latter is the harder one.

References from 2 puppy buyers. Is it OK if they're my mum and my brother? Is it OK if the pups are only 10 weeks old (owners of 10 week old puppies almost always think the breeder of their puppy is great). Is it OK if the puppy buyers actually have no clue at all that they have been ripped off big time for substandard animals at inflated prices?

And Sandra i dont think this is a laughing matter!!! It affects everyone in qld. You may laugh but i wonder what it is you are laughing at. All the time and money people put into produceing their dogs is not to be laughed at. a billion dollar industry. Perhaps to you it is a hobby but most devote their lives to produce and be the best they can be.

Your faith in the system is what I am laughing at.

I have spent the last 32 years and more money than I even want to consider improving the health and temperament of my chosen breed to say nothing of the physical soundness of the dogs I breed.

There is nothing in the accredited breeders scheme that requires people to breed from dogs which have been health tested, are mentally sound, even vaguely represent the breed they are meant to in any way shape or form. No knowledge of the breed is required AT ALL.

Not sure how your 15 years of maybe thinking about perhaps owning a dog I might breed from qualifies you to even begin to judge a system you patently do not understand.

i agree with everything you have said but especially the bolded bit.

imo it is only when health checks are demanded that we will start getting somewhere

[Crisovar]

OK i dont think you see my point!!! Read below and it mentions the PUBLIC yes the one buying pups!!!! This is who the system is for!!!!! not the breeders...

" We have been gathering information from the surveys since September 2009. Our

intention was to find out what breeders do and how those practices are perceived by

the buying public. The results of the survey from September 2009 to February 2010

were presented at the General Meeting in March. In its own small way, the survey

has produced enough data to establish that most of our member breeders are

conforming with and surpassing Dogs Queensland Rules and Regulations and Code

of Ethics."

So again i ask if you are not accredited why would a member of the public buy a dog from you????????

Was never a problem considering the majority was word of mouth, or return buyers, and for the majority of breeders I know it isn't a problem for them, also I would expect a puppy buyer to have done their homework and not just buy from someone because they put a pretty logo on their website.

I have found the best advertisement is a happy healthy sound dog, typical of the breed out and about with a satisfied proud owner, be it on the street, in the park or at some form of dog sport or activity.

[Swanbrook]

I dont think that is correct as i have looked into the paperwork and their is more involved than simply paying money.

It would take lies from a vet and other proffessionals to slip the system.

What "other proffessionals"??? A reference from your vet is the only requirement from a professional , whoop whoop. A reference about what. Mr ABC brings me puppies once a month for vaccination and pays their account on time is a reference.

"Reference" from another breeder - the other breeder doesn't have to be accredited or have any experience or any qualification other than they managed to fluke their way through a stupid open book test and managed to think up a prefix no one else had registered. Of the two, the latter is the harder one.

References from 2 puppy buyers. Is it OK if they're my mum and my brother? Is it OK if the pups are only 10 weeks old (owners of 10 week old puppies almost always think the breeder of their puppy is great). Is it OK if the puppy buyers actually have no clue at all that they have been ripped off big time for substandard animals at inflated prices?

And Sandra i dont think this is a laughing matter!!! It affects everyone in qld. You may laugh but i wonder what it is you are laughing at. All the time and money people put into produceing their dogs is not to be laughed at. a billion dollar industry. Perhaps to you it is a hobby but most devote their lives to produce and be the best they can be.

Your faith in the system is what I am laughing at.

I have spent the last 32 years and more money than I even want to consider improving the health and temperament of my chosen breed to say nothing of the physical soundness of the dogs I breed.

There is nothing in the accredited breeders scheme that requires people to breed from dogs which have been health tested, are mentally sound, even vaguely represent the breed they are meant to in any way shape or form. No knowledge of the breed is required AT ALL.

Not sure how your 15 years of maybe thinking about perhaps owning a dog I might breed from qualifies you to even begin to judge a system you patently do not understand.

But there is in the membership to the CCCQ. Sorry for Questioning the system and please dont take this as a personal atack on you and your years in the dog world but you dont make the whole thing sound any good and not something a normal person would want to be a part of. SHAME...Mabe you been doing it too long. And out of all these corrupt vets and people you have encounted or seen in your years have you ever tried to stop it????? Report corruption or simply sit back and complain.

Sorry but you make me very angry. If you dont do anything how does it get fixed????Infact to do nothing or not to question is to be as bad as those abusing the whole system. The rules of the ccc state clearly about health check and scores ect so why should this.

Edited January 30, 2011 by BigW

[Sandra777]

But there is in the membership to the CCCQ.

There is what? Requirement for health testing, breed knowledge - exactly WHAT are you saying is a requirement for membership of the CCCQ, because I can tell you for a fact you are wrong - there is not even the requirement that you need to own a dog (let alone a registered pedigree one) to belong to the CCCQ.

Sorry for Questioning the system and please dont take this as a personal atack on you and your years in the dog world but you dont make the whole thing sound any good and not something a normal person would want to be a part of.

The problem is you are NOT questioning the system - you are blindly believing the system is right and this despite the fact you have been told repeatedly by a lot of experienced people that the system is not right, but no - you know the system is great and works well.

SHAME...Mabe you been doing it too long. And out of all these corrupt vets and people you have encounted or seen in your years have you ever tried to stop it????? Report corruption or simply sit back and complain.

Sorry but you make me very angry. If you dont do anything how does it get fixed????

"Don't do anything" - what do you want done???????????????????????????

Blind acceptance of a flawed scheme doesn't make the system work better.

It is only if those with the experience and knowledge to judge it's merit (or lack of it) stand up and say NO we will not join you scheme that things will change - a flawed scheme which only provides more avenues for dodgy breeders to sell substandard dogs to unsuspecting people

What corrupt vets????????????? Never said anything about a corrupt vet. I stated the obvious - a reference from a vet is meaningless if there's nothing stated about what the reference needs to address. ETA: the reference form supplied requires the vet to say the person looks after their dogs well. That means what exactly? Looking after a dog and having the knowledge to breed are not quite the same thing

I think you've got yourself all wound up about something you really did believe in and are now realising isn't as flash as you thought it was. Sorry to burst your bubble

Edited January 30, 2011 by Sandra777

[Lowenhart]

But there is in the membership to the CCCQ. Sorry for Questioning the system and please dont take this as a personal atack on you and your years in the dog world but you dont make the whole thing sound any good and not something a normal person would want to be a part of. SHAME...Mabe you been doing it too long. And out of all these corrupt vets and people you have encounted or seen in your years have you ever tried to stop it????? Report corruption or simply sit back and complain.

Sorry but you make me very angry. If you dont do anything how does it get fixed????Infact to do nothing or to question is to be as bad as those abusing the whole system. The rules of the ccc state clearly about health check and scores ect so why should this.

The Accredited breeder system has it's failures. Those who have been breeding for a large number of years and witnessed the dodgy goings on that have happened in the past can see how the Accredited Breeder system is flawed. Their lack of participation is a strong indication of this.

As it stands the accrediation system does nothing to weed out the unethical. And it does not provide a significant improvement for buyers.

So why should a breeder who is highly ethical pay the extra money for something that gives no more protection to buyers and that they do not believe in?

[Bullbreedlover]

Well so far i have not herd any real good reasons why not to back the system except for COSTS or not having FAITH in the system because it has already been infiltrated by less than honest breeders which somehow seems to be stretching things with unproven statements about their practises. Doesn't Accreditation in fact PROVE the breeder is preferred by the CCC its self.....? Surely the CCC wouldnt support bad breeders known to them from the old system.

BigW...the CCCQ or DogsQld cant even abide by the rules of ANKC in some cases. How are they going to set a precedence to breeders when they cant even do that?

And I never said anything about unproven statements. I have all the proof in the world. CCCQ didnt want to know about it when questioned of their actions. ANKC couldnt go against the decision of CCCQ

In another matter DogsQld stuffed up majorly concerning the registration of puppies in another breed and then had to back track big time when said puppies parentage needed DNA testing.

So when the registry themselves cant abide by rules it doesnt hold much hope for the Accreditation system does it?

So if you do want some good reasons, you dont have to dig deep to find them. I am sure every breed will have bad breeders. I am sure others will know of lots of dodgy practices

Yet these people may portray themsleves as being totally trustworthy.

The mentor system is definetly needed, but there in lies another problem. Each indiviual breeder has their own interpretation of the Standard and of breeding practices. Who is to say their opinion is correct. I have shown pedigree dogs for 35 years. My mentors were my parents. I have had the good judgement and the foresight to truly appreciate why each of my breeds exist, the standards as they should be applied in my breeding programmes, and the ability to recognise a wonderful specimen. I am not kennel blind either. But just because people put their names down to be a mentor doesn't necessarily mean that they have the qualities as a person to fullfil the task. Many mentoring situations happen by word of mouth not by payment of money.

Edited January 30, 2011 by stonebridge

[conztruct]

OK i dont think you see my point!!! Read below and it mentions the PUBLIC yes the one buying pups!!!! This is who the system is for!!!!! not the breeders...

" We have been gathering information from the surveys since September 2009. Our

intention was to find out what breeders do and how those practices are perceived by

the buying public. The results of the survey from September 2009 to February 2010

were presented at the General Meeting in March. In its own small way, the survey

has produced enough data to establish that most of our member breeders are

conforming with and surpassing Dogs Queensland Rules and Regulations and Code

of Ethics."

So again i ask if you are not accredited why would a member of the public buy a dog from you????????because its cheaper????

I breed to keep... but i am still going to have to home a litter of puppies. That means working with the needs of the public.

OK maybe this is the way of the new Generation of responsible breeders.

But I too also rely on the experience and knowledge of other long term Champion producers and i thank them for that.

After reading the particulars of the scheme my honest opinion is that it's a nice theory but any quality registered breeder would meet all of these criteria without have to pay for a logo.

Unfortunately, the requirements will not do anything to prevent poor quality or unethical breeders (which the scheme is attempting to differentiate) from becoming accredited. As for the reference from a vet, do you really think that if a dodgy breeder who pumps out litter upon litter of puppies and brings the vet great income takes their business away because the vet doesn't give them reference they want for accreditation, that the vet won't think twice about being pious again?

Look - the concept of it is very nice but these are all the things that should be happening to become registered anyway? The alleged purpose of the scheme is to differentiate from dodgy breeders but the scheme can't deliver this, so why have it. I'm not saying it's anything insidious by Dogs Qld - they need to be seen and feel like they're doing something to address the dodgy breeder problem but this doesn't hit the mark or achieve the outcome, so it's only adding a layer of bureaucracy and costs for no gain.

I'm a newbie so you can dismiss me as someone who doesn't understand or know enough to comment, but that's how I see it. From my perspective if I wanted to do something or know that someone was a good breeder, I'd be gathering my own references. Personally to try and become a good breeder myself, I'm looking at accreditation through MDBA so I have actually done some competency based learning rather than just a few references that I'd easily be able to dodgy up if I wanted to....JMHO. Happy to be berated and educated if I'm not looking at it the right way.

[Bullbreedlover]

BigW...I am not having a go at you as such...You have the same wonderful breed as me.

but I cant agree with your views that the accreditated breeder system is the best thing in the world since sliced bread.

It truly is not.

eta

having a problem with spell check again today

Edited January 30, 2011 by stonebridge

[Swanbrook]

But there is in the membership to the CCCQ. Sorry for Questioning the system and please dont take this as a personal atack on you and your years in the dog world but you dont make the whole thing sound any good and not something a normal person would want to be a part of. SHAME...Mabe you been doing it too long. And out of all these corrupt vets and people you have encounted or seen in your years have you ever tried to stop it????? Report corruption or simply sit back and complain.

Sorry but you make me very angry. If you dont do anything how does it get fixed????Infact to do nothing or to question is to be as bad as those abusing the whole system. The rules of the ccc state clearly about health check and scores ect so why should this.

The Accredited breeder system has it's failures. Those who have been breeding for a large number of years and witnessed the dodgy goings on that have happened in the past can see how the Accredited Breeder system is flawed. Their lack of participation is a strong indication of this.

As it stands the accrediation system does nothing to weed out the unethical. And it does not provide a significant improvement for buyers.

So why should a breeder who is highly ethical pay the extra money for something that gives no more protection to buyers and that they do not believe in?

Again i thank you for this educating information but now you are asking my original question WHY? Thats what i asked and got me to here!

this is what we need to here so we can make informed discussions but dont slap me with 30 year ago stories i want to know about now and tomorrow.

This is in place and what NEW COMERS OWNERS BUYERS BREEDERS ARE FACE WITH...we didnt creat this system the new people.

[ravensmyst00]

Well so far i have not herd any real good reasons why not to back the system except for COSTS or not having FAITH in the system because it has already been infiltrated by less than honest breeders which somehow seems to be stretching things with unproven statements about their practises. Doesn't Accreditation in fact PROVE the breeder is preferred by the CCC its self.....? Surely the CCC wouldnt support bad breeders known to them from the old system.

Wish I could be as trusting of the system as you are. I've only been in this breed going on 6 years now and I know who are the "bad breeders" and who are the "good" and which states they are in and they are all registered breeders.

If you want to pay the $22 fee to become Accredited I believe it will only give you and the other breeder first pick so to speak of all puppy and breed enquiries coming in to the CCCQ.

[Swanbrook]

BigW...I am not having a go at you as such...You have the same wonderful breed as me.

but I cant agree with your views that the accreditated breeder system is the best thing in the world since sliced bread.

It truly is not.

eta

having a problem with spell check again today

Thank you. I am only trying to learn more befor i do make my mind up. I am a member of Dogs Qld and i have read all the rules and constitution and in my membership it does state thing for health hip scores to breed and age to breed i must abid to. So i dont know what you mean when you say the cccq dont do anything about health requirements. I must have joined a different cccq

[Swanbrook]

I would like to thank everyone who has posted a reply to my question and it is clear by the responses where this system sits with everyone.

Thank you for your time.

[Sandra777]

I am a member of Dogs Qld and i have read all the rules and constitution and in my membership it does state thing for health hip scores to breed and age to breed i must abid to. So i dont know what you mean when you say the cccq dont do anything about health requirements. I must have joined a different cccq

Some breeds have health testing requirements prior to registration being accepted, but not all breeds AND even in those breeds which do a dog which has a high hip score (for example) that no ethical breeder would consider is still allowed to be used, the score has to be recorded, it doesn't have to be acceptable (Note: I have no idea if this is uniform across the breeds requiring hip scoring prior to progeny being registered or not). In other extremely popular breeds the ANKC refuses to act to enforce compulsory health testing or to even support the recording of ''clear by parentage'' animals on their database. So much for health testing

Minimum ages for bitches to whelp - in what way is this in any way related to breeding healthy dogs?. Some random figure which allows someone to breed from a bitch doesn't do anything to prove the bitch is worth breeding from.

If you search here you will find numerous threads in here about seriously appalling breeders selling puppies (or selling imaginary puppies in some cases) to members of the public. In virtually none of these cases would the CCCQ act to protect the good name of their ethical breeders.

I have personal experience in a case where a litter was registered from a dog which had been dead for 3 years (yes this could be verified), produced by a bitch which was 13 years old. No it was not by frozen semen nor was it a miracle. At no time was the kennel club involved in the slightest bit interested in protecting the ingretity of their stud book by insisting on DNA proof of parentage. Yes a complaint was laid, but another $150+ (at that time) per puppy to prove parentage had to come out of the pocket of the complaint and could not be awarded as a cost if proven correct.

Many examples of this world wide.

Yes, there's lots of really lovely words in the CCCQ code of ethics and rules - but you try having someone brought to task over even the most blatent breech and all they'll get is a tap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Sandra777

[Swanbrook]

Personally i think its a good thing because it will help weed out the breeders whom do not meet the standards and the mills and also for the puppy purchaser. The buyer can look see that there are lets say 100 breeders listed and only 5 accredited breeders listed who are you going to spend your $1500 with. I think im going for the accredited breeder everytime.

In light of the fact that virtually everyone who has replied to you has said some of the accredited breeders are very dodgy, perhaps you want to revisit your thought process on this one.

Yes i think you are right! I think a hell of a lot more inquiring into it is needed.

[Swanbrook]

Personally i think its a good thing because it will help weed out the breeders whom do not meet the standards and the mills and also for the puppy purchaser. The buyer can look see that there are lets say 100 breeders listed and only 5 accredited breeders listed who are you going to spend your $1500 with. I think im going for the accredited breeder everytime.

In light of the fact that virtually everyone who has replied to you has said some of the accredited breeders are very dodgy, perhaps you want to revisit your thought process on this one.

Yes i think you are right! I think a hell of a lot more inquiring into it is needed.

[Steve]

Ive owned Bullmastiffs for 15 years. For the past few years i have been working,planning towards breeding and now this new system is in place. Personally i think its a good thing but i cant help wondering why with my chosen breed the Bullmastiff there is but 1 Qld Breeder who has gone out of their way to comply to the new regulations and be willing to do their part for the Bullmastiff breed. Why is it other breeders have not got on board with this system? Is it wrong or am i missing something???

Why do you think its a good thing?

Personally i think its a good thing because it will help weed out the breeders whom do not meet the standards and the mills and also for the puppy purchaser. The buyer can look see that there are lets say 100 breeders listed and only 5 accredited breeders listed who are you going to spend your $1500 with. I think im going for the accredited breeder everytime.

Well some guy in England by the name of Bateson did a big enquiry into purebred dog breeding after the pedigreed dogs exposed program was aired.

One of his recommendations was that they needed an accredited breeder program and they probably did because they have a different system to us

So two states so far have fallen over themselves to introduce these accredited breeder programs.

Its all very much a worry because just the fact that they put that stuff in there as some mark of a "better" breeder surely implies they must know they have some pretty crook ones.

I mean seriously have to go through a check list to say you are going to record the mating and the whelping date - even though you can't register a puppy anyway with out that

Having to have people agree they will prepare a spot for a bitch to have puppies in

So here's the three burning questions.

1. If there really is a need to have people agree to this stuff - why not make everyone agree to it - for free - why dont they just change their codes of ethics for everyone - why only give an option?

2. If its only $22 and the breeders are doing it all anyway why dont they just go along with it? Seems to me there must be a hell of lot more shonky breeders in the group which havent signed up than there is in the one that has

3. If there are really breeders who are registered with a state CC who are not doing this stuff which is in the main covered already in regs and codes why do they let them stay in?

So as long as the pet shop owner or agent comes to the breeders place and sees the mother and where the pups lived they are good to go.

They can still breed cross bred dogs and thousands of puppies a year as long as they say O.K. for a site inspection with a warning that its coming and they can request at least one person who is doing the inspecting.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Steve