Rainy Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Hay guys iv read so many differing opinons about this so i decided to throw it to dol'ers How do you "charge" your clicker when first starting a dog on clicker training? Iv been told to click and feed randomly and iv been told to start with somthing he knows like sit and start clicking that then reward so im a little confused Incase it canges the advise Diesel is a 3 yo who is currently doing ccd in obediance thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 If he already knows stuff, I wouldn't bother charging it. I'd just start clicking for behaviour he knows and following it up with a treat. I started marker training with a 12 year old, anxious Mini Pin this morning, just to see if I could get anywhere seeing as this dog is not really trained and his owners spend a lot of time shouting at him and making him more anxious. He is a classic case of a dog shut down and I've never been able to get him to work for anything in the past. It turns out he will work for boiled heart. Anyway, point is, I didn't charge my marker at all. "Sit" is the only thing he knows how to do, so I started with that and marked and rewarded for sits, then lured a "touch" with food in a fist and he was doing that right away. As long as it is a sudden kind of sound, my experience is that it does the job and doesn't need much charging. My dogs gather that any blip of a sound I make is probably a marker. Having said that, I am marker training my wild hare and I did "charge" that one kind of. Just making my marker sound and giving him a treat whenever he looked at me. But he's a wild animal and had to be taught to want to interact with me in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainy Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 cool thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 My very first clicker charging lesson for my girl started with me throwing treats on the floor...as soon as she would reach them, just as she was about to pick it up, I would click & she would get the treat...simple. We love playing clicker games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) Hay guys iv read so many differing opinons about this so i decided to throw it to dol'ers How do you "charge" your clicker when first starting a dog on clicker training? Iv been told to click and feed randomly and iv been told to start with somthing he knows like sit and start clicking that then reward so im a little confused Incase it canges the advise Diesel is a 3 yo who is currently doing ccd in obediance thanks in advance If you want an expert's opinion, get yourself to the 'Mia Skogster' obedience seminar at Metro Dogsport Club 26-27 Feb 2011. Mia is the 2010 WORLD FMBB Champion and is an expert in using the clicker training method. Hurry, because time is running out fast! http://www.metrodogsport.com Edited January 29, 2011 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainy Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Would love to but i cant get to QLD for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Would love to but i cant get to QLD for it Me too, but I can't get there either... In answer to your original question I do think it's important to charge the clicker when starting out, regardless of what the dog already knows. It is essentially a new marker and the dog needs to understand clearly what the click means for it to be effective. So a few short sessions of click>treat, click>treat. When the dog starts to instantly look for the treat after the click (ie, if his back is turned, you click and he immediately spins around to say "hey, where's my treat?" then I would move on to basic commands, then shaping new behaviours. If your dog is used to a marker word of some sort he should pick it up fairly quickly anyway I'm sure someone with more experience could explain the theory behind it better.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) I almost never charge the clicker, very few dogs fail to make the connection very quickly. Just make sure you minimise the time between click and treat. Contrary to popular opinion, the dog does not need to be whipping his head around at the sound of the click. You will know that he understands what it means when you get more of the response you have clicked. Edited January 29, 2011 by Aidan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think it's clear pretty quickly. IME dogs only need, like, maybe 3-5 reps of a simple association (noise=food) to figure out what it means. Clickers are inherently startling and so grab a dog's attention. This morning I was just using "good" and this flakey basket case of a dog that apparently can't be taught anything seemed to be catching on. I don't really see why you need to charge the clicker if it does the job without being charged. What's the worst that can happen? The dog doesn't realise for a while that the clicker means they did the right thing? They'll figure it out soon enough. I am constantly accidentally using the wrong marker with my dogs. I have about 3 or 4 different ones I use for different animals/behaviours. It doesn't seem to make a difference. They know what training looks like. The clicker works best, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) I almost never charge the clicker, very few dogs fail to make the connection very quickly. Just make sure you minimise the time between click and treat. Contrary to popular opinion, the dog does not need to be whipping his head around at the sound of the click. You will know that he understands what it means when you get more of the response you have clicked. Ok, but if you were starting out with charging the clicker -ie, had never used it before, not asking for or marking any particular behaviour and were simply charging with click>treat wouldn't it be the dogs natural response be to whip it's head around looking for the treat after a few reps? Just signalling that the lightbulb has gone off that click = treat? How do you first start off without charging? Do you ask for a particular behaviour and mark? Or work more by capturing or shaping behaviours? Edited January 30, 2011 by SecretKei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I didn't charge the clicker with Little Em. Just waited until she looked up at me, clicked and treated. She worked it out very quickly. I don't look for or expect a head turn but do look for at least an ear flick as the clicker can blend into the sound environment for young pups that are highly distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I don't charge the clicker either. I just don't think its necessary when you are playing shaping games. I find the dogs catch on real quick the correlation between behaviour - marker (click) and treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 This was posted on another list... perfect example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noX2xcUg0IE...player_embedded and this :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I almost never charge the clicker, very few dogs fail to make the connection very quickly. Just make sure you minimise the time between click and treat. Contrary to popular opinion, the dog does not need to be whipping his head around at the sound of the click. You will know that he understands what it means when you get more of the response you have clicked. Ok, but if you were starting out with charging the clicker -ie, had never used it before, not asking for or marking any particular behaviour and were simply charging with click>treat wouldn't it be the dogs natural response be to whip it's head around looking for the treat after a few reps? Just signalling that the lightbulb has gone off that click = treat? Yes, that is a result classical conditioning. Various physiological responses occur in response to a stimulus that predicts food. If Classical Conditioning were your goal, ideally you would expect salivation in response to the clicker. As a bridging stimulus it is not necessary for that to occur (although it will in time, regardless of our intentions). What we want the clicker for is to mark the response we are trying to reinforce, so it follows that the only necessary sign that the clicker is doing it's job is that we get more of the responses that we click. In my experience, this can happen without any obvious sign of classical conditioning and it is what all trainers should be looking for - the response that we have clicked increasing, not signs that the clicker is "charged" (classically conditioned) which is really of little importance to us. How do you first start off without charging? Do you ask for a particular behaviour and mark? Or work more by capturing or shaping behaviours? Good question. Any of the above. Just get the food in his mouth promptly after the click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Thanks Aidan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessiesTracey Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Could I possibly ask some advice on the back of this thread too? I've took the step toward having a go at clicker training. This is gonna sound really dim.. but when do you start to add in voice commands - or in fact do you add in voice commands at all? I'm assuming you would have to to gain each of the actions you want, i.e. sit? heel? down? stand up? At this point do you stop marking with the clicker too, and use only the command? Help!!! Complete noob at this!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 You don't add the cue until the dog is performing the action reliably the way you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessiesTracey Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 You don't add the cue until the dog is performing the action reliably the way you want Fab, thank you. Baby steps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The cue can also be a hand signal or an object or a movement, or anything, really. It's like a green light to tell the dog that if they perform the behaviour now they will get rewarded for it. This is different to a command where they are expected to respond in a particular way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessiesTracey Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The cue can also be a hand signal or an object or a movement, or anything, really. It's like a green light to tell the dog that if they perform the behaviour now they will get rewarded for it. This is different to a command where they are expected to respond in a particular way. Ok. So for example, I'm trying to teach a close controlled heel at the moment. Stationary to begin with. As soon as the desired behaviour, i.e. the dog is next to my left leg and watching me (not the treat hand), I am clicking then rewarding with the treat. Once this is perfected, I can then introduce either a voice cue or perhaps a tap to the left leg to maintain that desired behaviour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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