Too Much Rough Play For A Puppy?

[dandybrush]

to answer you question, its up to you what you think is acceptable play for the puppys body to handle, if you do want to separate them and give them a break as you are unsuccessfully doing (tying up and still playing) you need to separate them so they cant access each other, but as to how much play? i think everyone ideas and opinions differ according to their experiences

I wish i had thought about my boys growing body more as a pup, we would go to the dog park for hours in the arvo and he would play and have a ball, of course i would stop the games if they were too rough, but he likes to play rough also, i also used a settling technique when he would get too highly aroused and have found this to keep him below a state of too uber excited, so when he plays now he plays really nicely. now he doesnt play as much, but i think it really helped to teach him manners as a youngster.

however, Now when he is cold he clicks when he walks in 1 paw, and i dont know what caused it, but i think it might have been too much play for him too young i worry constantly that i have stuffed him up, but if i caused him to get arthritis as he gets older, i will continue to look after him as he needs cause i love him and he is my baby

[all creatures]

Thanks for more tips,

I am actually appreciating the topic also (funny about that!) For the sake of not boring everyone to death - I spared you the "big picture" - but maybe it's worth recording it for others down the track.

Big mistake No.1:

Never thought it would happen to me - but we have a mismatched breed and home.

Whilst I have always taken painstaking measures to choose a breed suited to me and now my child - my OH chose a STB. As much as I understand this choice and don't like to be critical - it was a perhaps selfish choice and one that I resisted for some time.

It is not in my nature to not love and care for Midge - but I also have to make the best of a less than ideal situation. Sure I make mistakes - but I am trying my best by both her and my family (BTW - 7yr old will not interact with Midge because she is so rough)

Of interest:

I am not convinced, yet, that this is a good companion combination. If it were my BC and Schipp - we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He was of oustanding temperament and very level headed. Ditto for the STB/BC combo - it went brilliantly. Poodlefan crystallised my doubts by looking to the future and also understood the outside/inside thing.

So, armed with video footage of the girls at play, we 3 are off to my Vet on Monday to chew the fat. He is a behaviourist, fortunately. I will be sure to post his feedback as follow up.

Unfortunatley:

Due to circumstances beyond both Midge's and my own control - she has not been socialised extensively enough for me to be confident of her limits and reactions in different situations.

Sadly:

These two girls are a part of our family and I expect them to be here, together, for a long time. They can't be separated indefintitely. If they do turn out to be a problem combo - then either my hubby or my 7yr old may to have to give their dog up.....

Lastly:

This is my daughters very first pup that she has wished and prayed for every B'day and Xmas - for a number of years now. She dotes on Daisy and vice versa. My great fear is that Midge will somehow damage Daisy, or much worse. I have no desire to see my childs heart broken like that - and I wouldn't blame her if she never liked Midge again. That wouldn't make for a happy family.

Hence - I am trusting my instincts on this one - and want to get on top of this sooner rather than later. I very much hope that I can post here in times to come and say it all worked out fine.

It's also the reason I am a bit frustrated with the tying-up issue. The forrest can be bigger than the trees sometimes - and I believe in my heart I did the right thing and still do. If I am to be pinged for it - then ping me for tying her up to the BBQ - which was the silly thing in hindsight - she may well have been strong enough to pull down it on top of herself - she wouldn't choke a puppy to death in a split second, and never in a million years would I leave them like that on their own.

So - is that an interesting behavioural science lesson? :D Comments, advice and suggestions always welcome - opinions ...maybe not so much...

Edited January 27, 2011 by all creatures

[dandybrush]

i was once told by my behaviourist that the thing you worry about the most is the thing that is most likely to happen/go wrong for eg, she was worried that her dog wouldnt pee on the grass when its raining...and guess what? he doesnt.

I think you are being very smart in trying to make sure it runs smoothly and that everyone can be happy. but try not to worry about it tooo much, let it run its course naturally. You set the rules and enforce them, if one dog is getting too excited, separate them. If one dog does something to hurt the other cue in a time out word (i use "too bad" ) and put them in a time out in the bathroom or a crate and ignore them for a bit. teach them to live apart from each other happily but also teach them to live together and tolerate each other weather or not they like each other :D learn as much as you can, but try not to make it you main stress, give them loooootttss of treats for being calm around each other, just leave a bowl of treats on you kitchen bench or something, so you can access them quickly when you are seeing behaviours you want to see, they will soon learn which behaviours get them rewarded

keep up the good work

[all creatures]

i was once told by my behaviourist that the thing you worry about the most is the thing that is most likely to happen/go wrong for eg, she was worried that her dog wouldnt pee on the grass when its raining...and guess what? he doesnt.

I think you are being very smart in trying to make sure it runs smoothly and that everyone can be happy. but try not to worry about it tooo much, let it run its course naturally. You set the rules and enforce them, if one dog is getting too excited, separate them. If one dog does something to hurt the other cue in a time out word (i use "too bad" ) and put them in a time out in the bathroom or a crate and ignore them for a bit. teach them to live apart from each other happily but also teach them to live together and tolerate each other weather or not they like each other learn as much as you can, but try not to make it you main stress, give them loooootttss of treats for being calm around each other, just leave a bowl of treats on you kitchen bench or something, so you can access them quickly when you are seeing behaviours you want to see, they will soon learn which behaviours get them rewarded

keep up the good work

Yup - "the thing you worry about the most is the thing that is most likely to happen/go wrong" - I agree there dandybrush - but I am not surprised either. We may be humans - but we too are 'animals - but with an innate, intelligent, remarkable and superior knowledge of other animals also (usually because they were our prey...oops) it's no coincidence though - and if only we validated that knowledge for what it is worth perhaps.

The "horse whisperer" and such - it's no real secret - it's just connecting with what we all carry inside of us, already. Some folk don't even think/believe they know how to raise a veg garden these days - let alone a dog. What is happenning to us?

I find it fascinating, in my example here, as to what people suggest. It's all good - but it's also disparate and I have seen this on other topics also. Bit like raising a child these days - so much information overload.....who and what do u believe..?

Many people like to hog knowledge also - giving out little bits as crumbs - it gives them a sense of power and superiority. I know this very well - as a scientist. Always listen to the people who not only give advice but back it up also. People who are genuinely interested in seeing anything improve don't hog knowledge.

As for my "pedigree breeder" comment - obviously some folk were 'defensive' themselves perhaps..? Sure as hell I wasn't.

But really - many things we do with our pets these days are quite "artificial" - in my humble opinion. The show ring, the groomer, the "uber-deluxe" kennels and all the other "stuff"....??? C'mon - some must admit this is partly true? Even our breeding programmes can be "artificially" selected for....

Good Breeders do their best and I truly applaud (and support) their efforts....Schipps were almost extinct not so long ago....it is through the efforts of committed people that my girl is here today....for me - this breed was worth saving. Afghan hound devotees likely feel the same about their breed. One of the things I appreciate with my Vet is that his judgement is not coloured by favouristism for any particular breed. Behind every good breeder is a good Vet I would guess?

Is there anyone else out there that feels this way maybe??? Some folk are very experienced and talented with dogs and/or much bigger and smaller animals also - just because they choose not to breed, show..etc - doesn't mean they don't have a story worth listening to also - or are ignorant. This is how we learn. I get tired of "being told" by some - like their opinion is Law? I am all alone here?

I will call a spade a spade here (with no fear) - some posts are a tad over the top......my dream is too see all folk who are interested in the welfare of our animal brothers and sisters - to work together to make their world a better place. That's why I am here....

I just don't get into the one-up-manship that sometimes occurs in many forums, unfortunately. Will likely get fried for that comment - but at least it's the truth and I really don't care. I am here for my animal buddies - not my ego.

Well - there is my rant and my 2 cents worth

[LizT]

all creatures, another thing that has just come to mind (I owned my Schipperke in the mid 1980's so "old timers" creeps in sometimes! LOL) is that:

"A schipperke is small dog that doesn't believe it is a small dog" (meaning it doesn't believe it has any size limitations!) Therefore your calling time out may be the only time out that is called!

Also (and of no relevance whatsoever in this case but equally amusing "A Schipperke does not like to be laughed at and takes itself very seriously" Go figure.

[all creatures]

all creatures, another thing that has just come to mind (I owned my Schipperke in the mid 1980's so "old timers" creeps in sometimes! LOL) is that:

"A schipperke is small dog that doesn't believe it is a small dog" (meaning it doesn't believe it has any size limitations!) Therefore your calling time out may be the only time out that is called!

Also (and of no relevance whatsoever in this case but equally amusing "A Schipperke does not like to be laughed at and takes itself very seriously" Go figure.

I am just beginning to learn that lesson LizT!! Thanks for the hint! She does take herself very seriously indeed. She is a great match for my daughter in that respect - peas in a pod....

A really strange thing happened today in that Midge tried to get to her under the chair - the chair tipped onto Midge, knocked a few things over and Midge took off up the stairs (a rare event as they are open ones) and Midge is really wary of the pup now....

She likely thinks Daisy has superpowers now!

[Inevitablue]

As what Poodlefan said, with crating both dogs side by side, perhaps start bringing Midge inside so she learns that there is down time too.

My ex had staffords and whilst not my chosen breed I did find they responded beautifully to 'appropriate behavior in certain situations' training. Daisy is all so exciting at the moment, but if Daisy remains an indoor dog and Midge an outdoor dog then you could create the situation that 90% of the time Midge is busting to play with Daisy so the 10% of the time she gets to interact with her it's completely over the top.

Whilst Midge isnt your chosen dog try to embrace her as well trained staffords are a real pleasure. The play is possibly extra rough because she hasn't learnt to have relaxation time with Daisy yet.

With the worry about early damage to growing Daisy there has been some research (will look for it now, its from my old work) that supplementing a young dog's diet with chondroitin and glucosamine, if the is a concern about joint damage, can benefit. DJD and OA are asymptomatic for so long, while the damage is beginning to occur.

Have fun with your new puppy :-) Mine comes home on Friday, and I'm kinda sad that I don't have another dog at home at the moment. Well trained dog number 1 helps train potentially well trained dog number 2

[Blakbelgian]

we have Schipps only.

Before we rehomed one of our pups our older boy would play with him for a long time and eventually would get rougher.

In the end I would call time out and seperate them or make them sit & relax for 10 mins.

Body health wise they are both fine no permanent damage, but then Staffords are much stronger.

LizT is correct, Schipps beleive they are a Big Dog in a Small body so dont know when to give up.

Enjoy Daisy, before long time will fly and she will be 12 months old.

BB

[all creatures]

I guess it's something like this that I am wondering about (a cut and paste from another web site):

Predatory Drift happens when the larger dog's instinct to hunt are triggered.

These instincts can be triggered when play escalates or gets too much like the real thing (an out of control chase game). It can happen when a small dog gets scared or injured and squeals or wriggles in a way that makes them look like prey (dinner), Predatory Drift can happen just because thesize difference says, "You are comparatively bite-sized, or move like something that is bite-sized, and I am a canine predator."

The most alarming fact about Predatory Drift is that it can happen even with well-behaved, well-socialized, playful dogs who play well and often with no aggression, and no fights.

Dogs who are triggered into predatory drift, may or may not have ever been in a dog fight, and may or may not be generally well-behaved and obedient. There is NO protection against predatory drift. It is not a good dog/bad dog problem.

Predatory Drift is not about how brave, strong, feisty, or fearless the small dog acts. Predatory Drift is not about how well your medium or large, or extra large dog plays, listens to you, or how many times they have met, played with or been around a small dog.

Predatory Drift can even happen between two dogs that know each other well and have lived, played, and or known each other for years. In the right situation, a sudden shift happens and the predatory sequence (like dominoes falling) is triggered and completed with lightening fast speed.

While it is not a problem seen every day, all it takes is the slightest trigger -an injury, a fight, a response to something startling or scary. Predatory Drift is a SIZE MATTER! It usually involves a grab and shake, which instantly breaks the small dog's neck. There is no time to react. This in not a fight, it does not escalate. There is a trigger and then it is over.

Just looking to when schipp is older, I guess.

Has anyone seen/experienced this before?

[AdoubleJ]

We have a new Italian Spinone puppy - he is 12 weeks old. We also breed beagles. We have picked our easiest beagle to play with Enzo,Hugo is only 10 months old but is the least 'roughest' at playing. We have to be sooo careful with Enzo as already he is bigger than the beagles. This has worked really well for us, they have their 'tear around the garden' time, their roll around and play time then each goes their seperate ways and relaxes, maybe for hours. We have been lucky in the boy we picked so it works really well, well - maybe not lucky - we know our Beagles so made the right choice with Hugo.

[LizT]

My GSD is not allowed unsupervised play with my Cavaliers. I know that Clancy would not intentionally hurt them but he is a big boof and sometimes it seems like the girls are spending half of the play time on their backs saying "I submit" please don't kill me! So I always make sure I am there when they go play with him in "his yard".

This probably stems from the fact that my parents GSD accidently killed their dachshund (broke his back) one night while shuffling around in the kennel they shared. They were great mates and it was really sad but they were a very bad match for buddies I'm afraid.

Also a GSD I'd adopted and had for a month that seemed to get on really well with my other dogs suddenly grabbed and shook my Schipperke and threw her causing a tear in her scruff because she had dug up a bone he had hid.

Life experiences makes one cautious.

[all creatures]

we have Schipps only.

Before we rehomed one of our pups our older boy would play with him for a long time and eventually would get rougher.

In the end I would call time out and seperate them or make them sit & relax for 10 mins.

Body health wise they are both fine no permanent damage, but then Staffords are much stronger.

LizT is correct, Schipps beleive they are a Big Dog in a Small body so dont know when to give up.

Enjoy Daisy, before long time will fly and she will be 12 months old.

BB

You are right BB - the tide is turning and Midge seems to be losing interest rather rapidly in Daisy - in fact Daisy bit her (SBT) on the leg this morning (in play) and made her yelp - and Midge has run off around the back and hidden.....(she is a real sooky our SBT) (edit: and yes - I do love her - she is a real sweetie.. )

So that just leaves me back with CC's and other Schipp owners very wise comments - the Schipp can fend for herself and it's a puppy age thing. I feel much better about it all and can now get on with the tasks at hand that are so enjoyable - training a new (and very clever) pup!

Hooray!!

Edited February 2, 2011 by all creatures