Too Much Rough Play For A Puppy?

[all creatures]

He he ... husband chose the staffy - not me (and lucky him gets to work FIFO). I would never have picked that breed in my life, for myself....no need to get all "pedigree breeder" on me there Showdog...

[RallyValley]

He he ... husband chose the staffy - not me (and lucky him gets to work FIFO). I would never have picked that breed in my life, for myself....no need to get all "pedigree breeder" on me there Showdog...

Hmmmm not quite sure what you mean by that last comment? If you don't want advice don't ask, Showdog is just being helpful and if you think just because someone breeds dog thier advice isn't valid or is snobby maybe this forum is not the right place for you.

A person like showdog who breeds a small breed and also owns very large active breeds as well as owning a boarding kennel is going to have helpful advice. Maybe try listening instead of getting defensive. :D

Best of luck with the new pup and always if in doubt go to the pups breeder :D

[becks]

I have mini and giant schnauzers.

I just step in when play gets to rough or over excited and the pup will get put away in a playpen to settle down. It's not about the length of time they are allowed to interact but HOW they are interacting that affects my decision on when to break things up for a bit.

As you have one dog live out and one inside - why don;t you just separate them by having them in their own living spaces while you have a drink? 'safer then having one tied up and one loose if they still are trying to play with each other.

[all creatures]

He he ... husband chose the staffy - not me (and lucky him gets to work FIFO). I would never have picked that breed in my life, for myself....no need to get all "pedigree breeder" on me there Showdog...

Hmmmm not quite sure what you mean by that last comment? If you don't want advice don't ask, Showdog is just being helpful and if you think just because someone breeds dog thier advice isn't valid or is snobby maybe this forum is not the right place for you.

A person like showdog who breeds a small breed and also owns very large active breeds as well as owning a boarding kennel is going to have helpful advice. Maybe try listening instead of getting defensive. :D

Best of luck with the new pup and always if in doubt go to the pups breeder :D

True - but maybe people shouldn't jump to conclusions without checking the info first. I didn't ask for advice on whether I should be tying Midge up or not and the underlying tone (to me) was that I was being rather horrible and/or 'clueless' perhaps. Personally I found Showdogs last post rather sarcastic and unnecessary. Does Showdog own a SBT? Not all breeds of dog are the same - nor each individual within a breed - and even my Vet will state that Staffies are not the sharpest tool in the shed. To own a Staffy is to know a goof-ball with no idea of it's own strength. So no - not being defensive - just a little annoyed, in truth. But I guess that happens with typed messages - hence the use of emoticons...no harm done on this side

[all creatures]

I have mini and giant schnauzers.

I just step in when play gets to rough or over excited and the pup will get put away in a playpen to settle down. It's not about the length of time they are allowed to interact but HOW they are interacting that affects my decision on when to break things up for a bit.

As you have one dog live out and one inside - why don;t you just separate them by having them in their own living spaces while you have a drink? 'safer then having one tied up and one loose if they still are trying to play with each other.

Yes I agree - but the point of taking the puppy outside is so that she can "be" outside - not in a pen..? The house paddock is 5acres - there are no dividing fences. So I guess I can put Midge inside - while the puppy gets to play outside. So that should fix that problem...and I get my cuppa in peace!? :D

But the point I was trying to get to was how much time is enough for the two to be together......I agree - "how" they are playing is important - but I have two breeds that are a weird combo here - a Schipp is described as a "big dog in a small dogs body" - and I whole heartedly agree with that - so they "egg each other on" basically.

The rougher the pup gets - the more fun Midge thinks the game is - and she responds by upping the ante - she's not a terrier for nothing (more like terrorist!). As someone mentioned - "body-slamming" - that's a very staffy thing to do also.....

Thanks for the time to reply - I will have a chat to my Vet also - he's been around for a long time and is great for advice too, as he knows my dogs well - from young one's.

[all creatures]

I made the mistake of letting my pup play freely with my 2 adult dogs.

When she was 16 weeks she got body slammed in play by my adult amstaff and rolled down the hill in my backyard.

She tore the muscle in her shoulder really badly and had to be kept quiet and away from the other two for 3 months and have weekly sessions at the chiro.

At 8 months she still hasn't healed completly. She has muscle wastage and I now need to start hydrotherapy to built that shoulder up.

All this is on a show pup that we have high hopes for.... if we ever get the shoulder right

Please be very careful with a young growing puppy.

Hi 3Woofs - are Amstaff's like SBT's when it comes to play also?

[3Woofs]

I own both breeds, and in my opinion most SBT's and Amstaffs play rough.

My dogs have quite good doggy manners, but yes they do like to be very physical in play.... and noisy!

I'd suggest you just monitor the play until the pup is a little older and give both dogs a break when things get too rough.

Maybe gets some toys and play with both dogs so they are still together but not wrestling.

When your pup gets a little older, I'm sure she'll tell off the SBT if she's being too rough.

[corvus]

and even my Vet will state that Staffies are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Oh, they are not dumb, but they are exuberant and sometimes don't have stellar self-control. Most dogs can learn well enough if they are calm enough to think. Look up Dee Ganley's "Chill Out" game, which is here. Although I found by the time I had my puppy well enough trained to play this game I no longer really needed it as the pup had grown out of the worst of it. Perhaps it is a good thing to have in the wings, though.

I am a great believer in free play. Evidence suggests it is more important in developing creativity and coping skills than we ever imagined. But when play gets too intense it can turn nasty, and the last thing you want is your little Schipp getting in trouble if she ever tries to express a desire for the play to stop and the SBT doesn't take kindly to it - something I've seen SBTs do and it frightens me. I don't have any SBTs (and never will, thanks!), but my approach to arousal in general is if I think it is too high I need to do something to make sure this doesn't become a habit. Enter self-control exercises and the chill out game. Rough play is proportional to arousal, so I would monitor and not just stop them or split them up when it gets too rough, but take steps to calm them down a bit. Food in exchange for calm behaviours like downs can work well. If you do it every single time for a while, you might be able to condition the SBT to regulate her arousal to some extent during play.

Don't hold me to that, though. I've never tried it! At the least you should be able to teach them a "chill out" cue so you don't have to actually get up from your cuppa and intervene physically.

[B-Q]

I've been pretty careful with Quinn, Buster can be quiet rough wehn he plays so for the first 6 months or so they wern't allowed to do anything more than a couple of minutes here and there. Now she's 8 months I let her go a bit harder but if it gets too rough I stop them again. I'm too paranoid about her being damaged long term from something she does now.

But accidents can happen at anytime, my sisters kelpie/mini foxy mix collided with Buster (Kelpie/Cattle dog mix) when they were both going for the one ball. End result, 2 very sore mouths and Mac having to have her 2 front teeth removed because they'd broken off. Thats when they were 5 and 8 years old.

[Miranda]

True - but maybe people shouldn't jump to conclusions without checking the info first. I didn't ask for advice on whether I should be tying Midge up or not and the underlying tone (to me) was that I was being rather horrible and/or 'clueless' perhaps. Personally I found Showdogs last post rather sarcastic and unnecessary. Does Showdog own a SBT? Not all breeds of dog are the same - nor each individual within a breed - and even my Vet will state that Staffies are not the sharpest tool in the shed. To own a Staffy is to know a goof-ball with no idea of it's own strength. So no - not being defensive - just a little annoyed, in truth. But I guess that happens with typed messages - hence the use of emoticons...no harm done on this side

Showdog is not only a breeder and exhibitor, she also runs a boarding kennel and is a professional groomer, she will have had far more experience with Staffords than you have.

Personally I don't allow any rough play between puppies and older dogs, it's just too dangerous especially when the older dog is a breed known for being boisterous and full on. Older dogs can be taught how to play with puppies and smaller breeds and allowing your two dogs to play as they are at the moment is just asking for trouble, the puppy may well be having fun, but it is your job to ensure its safety. I also agree with those who say that you shouldn't be tying up the older dog.

You have posted on a public forum and will receive plenty of opinions that you don't agree with or don't want to hear, if you're not prepared for that, perhaps it's better not to post in the first place.

[LizT]

I've owned many breeds (Schipperke included) and I treat all baby puppies the same regardless of their breed. All need time out so continue to do what you have and give your puppy time out whether she thinks she needs it or not. A bit like a pre-schoolers afternoon nap time, not well received but when you check on them they are snoozing!

Recently there was a post about a 8 week old German Shepherd that the owner had left to play for hours with a 12 week old Maltese puppy. (Not suggesting for one moment you would do this) the end result was an exhausted GSD puppy that could barely stand. I think you understand that playtime needs to be retricted for now for a multitude of reasons. Use whatever method best works in your household. I use a puppy pen, a. because I have one and b. my home is of an open plan design and it is best for the safety of the youngsters and give me "time out" for that cuppa! :D

[corvus]

Personally I don't allow any rough play between puppies and older dogs, it's just too dangerous especially when the older dog is a breed known for being boisterous and full on.

Do you know about Rough And Tumble play? There's been a heap of research done on it, mostly on rats. There was a show on ABC a couple of weeks ago that showed neurons from the brain of a rat that was allowed RAT play and one that wasn't. The difference was profound. It may be dangerous, but there is evidence to suggest it is a very important aspect of brain development in young mammals.

[poodlefan]

Personally I don't allow any rough play between puppies and older dogs, it's just too dangerous especially when the older dog is a breed known for being boisterous and full on.

Do you know about Rough And Tumble play? There's been a heap of research done on it, mostly on rats. There was a show on ABC a couple of weeks ago that showed neurons from the brain of a rat that was allowed RAT play and one that wasn't. The difference was profound. It may be dangerous, but there is evidence to suggest it is a very important aspect of brain development in young mammals.

The difference with rats Corvus is that one rat probably doesn't weigh 5 times what the other one does. That's where the danger is.

Free play is great when dogs are similarly matched in size and play styles. My canine sports massage friend says there is no better exercise for a dog. Play between littermates is probably about the best you can get. Mismatched you can end up with permanent physical damage (know of an OCD case) and aggressive responses triggered by being outgunned and unable to stop the other dog.

If the Stafford is an outside dog, every time that Skip comes out its going to be on. I think both dogs would benefit from being put in situations where they can chill out together. Side by side crates inside would be one such method. As both dogs are female? I'd be watching the Staffords reaction to a maturing pup carefully also. She may come to the point where she won't allow the liberties she does now.

Edited January 27, 2011 by poodlefan

[sas]

I wouldn't be thinking that just because you're 2 feet away that accidents can't happen. Accidents can happen in a split second.

I believe play is good for pups but between dogs that are well matched.

[all creatures]

Free play is great when dogs are similarly matched in size and play styles. My canine sports massage friend says there is no better exercise for a dog. Play between littermates is probably about the best you can get. Mismatched you can end up with permanent physical damage (know of an OCD case) and aggressive responses triggered by being outgunned and unable to stop the other dog.

If the Stafford is an outside dog, every time that Skip comes out its going to be on. I think both dogs would benefit from being put in situations where they can chill out together. Side by side crates inside would be one such method. As both dogs are female? I'd be watching the Staffords reaction to a maturing pup carefully also. She may come to the point where she won't allow the liberties she does now.

Thanks Poodlefan - that is wise advice. They are both bitches and that may well be my next problem The advice I have got from breeders and my own research would suggest that the Schipp could very well take on more than she bargains for. We can achieve quiet time inside more easily. I will try it today - first taking the 'edge' of them both with separate play/excercise time..?

But I will watch closely with your comments in mind - and I am actually expecting that one will need to be spayed. It's hard to explain - but having had so many dogs and different combinations of pups, adults etc - this developing relationship bothers me for some reason.

I usually trust my instincts and have raised many happy, healthy pets from cats, dogs, horses, parrots, chooks, guinea pigs, rabbits, calves, lambs, goats, pigs etc etc....(hence the tag all creatures...) my gut feeling here (after only a week even) is that there is going to be trouble at some stage. I hope not - as they could become very good mates if it turns out well. My Vet is mobile also - so I might have a chat with him about coming here for next Vacc's and to observe them interact also.

[SparkyTansy]

without trying to insult your vet at all, not all vets are wonderful at observing and understanding animal behaviour... (and I am not saying yours isn't, however I have been slightly tainted after hearing some interesting views from a vet who's assessment and treatment plan left a LOT to be desired)

if you do not get the answers you seek from your vet, perhaps you could try a reputable behaviourist consult?

[all creatures]

True - but maybe people shouldn't jump to conclusions without checking the info first. I didn't ask for advice on whether I should be tying Midge up or not and the underlying tone (to me) was that I was being rather horrible and/or 'clueless' perhaps. Personally I found Showdogs last post rather sarcastic and unnecessary. Does Showdog own a SBT? Not all breeds of dog are the same - nor each individual within a breed - and even my Vet will state that Staffies are not the sharpest tool in the shed. To own a Staffy is to know a goof-ball with no idea of it's own strength. So no - not being defensive - just a little annoyed, in truth. But I guess that happens with typed messages - hence the use of emoticons...no harm done on this side

Showdog is not only a breeder and exhibitor, she also runs a boarding kennel and is a professional groomer, she will have had far more experience with Staffords than you have.

Personally I don't allow any rough play between puppies and older dogs, it's just too dangerous especially when the older dog is a breed known for being boisterous and full on. Older dogs can be taught how to play with puppies and smaller breeds and allowing your two dogs to play as they are at the moment is just asking for trouble, the puppy may well be having fun, but it is your job to ensure its safety. I also agree with those who say that you shouldn't be tying up the older dog.

You have posted on a public forum and will receive plenty of opinions that you don't agree with or don't want to hear, if you're not prepared for that, perhaps it's better not to post in the first place.

Hi - I don't want to start a war of words here - so maybe we should drop the whole "tying up" part of the discussion, please At the end of the day - they are my dogs and I know them better than anyone - especially at home and in their "normal" environment. With that, and the situation in mind - I disagree with Showdog and will say so - so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree

I genuinely appreciate the advice - certainly in that the pup could get tangled - but I not totally hapless. Comments such "not posting" are not very constructive to intelligent debate and certainly put me off seeking further information - much of which has been excellent.

I care enough about my dogs well being to be posting here in the first place - surely that is a good thing and to be encouraged

Edited January 27, 2011 by all creatures

[all creatures]

and even my Vet will state that Staffies are not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Oh, they are not dumb, but they are exuberant and sometimes don't have stellar self-control. Most dogs can learn well enough if they are calm enough to think. Look up Dee Ganley's "Chill Out" game, which is here. Although I found by the time I had my puppy well enough trained to play this game I no longer really needed it as the pup had grown out of the worst of it. Perhaps it is a good thing to have in the wings, though.

I am a great believer in free play. Evidence suggests it is more important in developing creativity and coping skills than we ever imagined. But when play gets too intense it can turn nasty, and the last thing you want is your little Schipp getting in trouble if she ever tries to express a desire for the play to stop and the SBT doesn't take kindly to it - something I've seen SBTs do and it frightens me. I don't have any SBTs (and never will, thanks!), but my approach to arousal in general is if I think it is too high I need to do something to make sure this doesn't become a habit. Enter self-control exercises and the chill out game. Rough play is proportional to arousal, so I would monitor and not just stop them or split them up when it gets too rough, but take steps to calm them down a bit. Food in exchange for calm behaviours like downs can work well. If you do it every single time for a while, you might be able to condition the SBT to regulate her arousal to some extent during play.

Don't hold me to that, though. I've never tried it! At the least you should be able to teach them a "chill out" cue so you don't have to actually get up from your cuppa and intervene physically.

Thanks Corvus - I will certainly check that link out.

Yes - STB's punch well above their size/weight ratio in strength and those jaw and neck muscles are intimidating for me too - even our german shephard didn't make me feel that way. For this reason Midge and I have developed completely non-contact play together and she is very good with the rules of the game. No - not dumb - just "pretends" she is Can be exasperating at times....especially given my breed preferences

At this stage I am right there with them (in free play) and call them to me when I think it's overheated - I give them equal attention at that point and we have a bit of a scratch etc....but some specific methods would be good.

Many thanks!

ps - the arousal point you made is very interesting - the Schipp definitely heightens Midges far more than the BC ever did.....maybe that's the key here....

Edited January 27, 2011 by all creatures

[Oscar (AmBull)]

Just wanted to say this has been a great read, extremely insightful as well so thanks to all contributing members and all creatures for creating it.

I own an Amstaff that also loves his rough play, I have been fortunate to have access to a family members small Tenterfield Terrier both as a puppy and at the moment as an adult for long periods of time (they holiday a lot). Oscar hadn't had much interaction with small dogs as he is a big dog and often ignores the smaller dogs to opt for the rough and tumble of bigger dogs.

From day one I worked with him on understanding her size, he shocked me in that he is very gentle (not his usual style), he is a body slam fan as all stafford owners know too well, and has never tried anything like that with her. I taught him from the first interaction to drop in play with her, so he is on her level, if they do some chasey as soon as she stops he drops, he got the idea very quickly and has never lost it.

So that could be a good thing to teach in play, that your stafford drops when playing with the puppy? If they do get over the top, I simply stop the play, Oscar will actually take himself over to his crate for some alone time/breather, and I make sure she leaves him alone (his crate is off limits to her), when he crates himself she goes for a nap

I honestly could not recommend a crate highly enough, best thing that I have ever bought as a dog owner.

Hope it all works out

[korbin13]

I too am finding this a really interesting read! I have found with my Stafford that when she plays with a new puppy or small dog, she will often go on her back for quite a while and play with them that way. She will get up and wrestle but spends 90% of the time on her back.

But I do watch closely whenever there is any play, if she gets up on her hind legs, I take her out of the play!