Sounds Simple

[dasha]

I am just wondering what advice the wonderful minds of DOL would have in order for me to retrain my dog for a sit-stay she needs to do next week for a TV job.

A few different options I have thought of.

She knows a sit command.

She has a Wait there command and a stay command as well as a stop command.

Problem is she sits, good dog, reward, praise, reward, give her a stay command-She drops...................everytime.

She is a sheepdog trial dog and has always had a natural tendancy to lay down as soon as she stops or is told to wait or stay. Has never really been obedience trained as I never intended for her to be able to do the obedience thing. Only be obedient in general life and when working sheep. In fact I encouraged her to be a little crazy as she was always a bit soft natured.

Her last training effort involved her learning to "sleep" which was laying down with her chin on the ground, so she is defaulting back to this at the moment. Although it was taught months ago.

SO............................ Do I go back to basics and just reinforce sits over and over and then introduce the stay command again?

Or do I forget a stay command and just teach her the sit is now an automatic stay until I command her for something else?

Or do I put her on a lead to prevent her from laying down and then still use a stay command.

Having asked all these questions, she is a very intelligent border collie with very high drive and short attention span in a good way. She is physically very active as well as mentally. She is clicker aware and would take a few reps to get her in on that again but with her it does encourage her to anticipate things and offer behavious which I also think MAY hinder her learning this scenario.

I am also an experienced dog person so am willing to try things suggested and give it a crack.

Thanks in advance........

[ness]

I had a similar problem with my high drive border collie who would lay down and like your dog her natural tendency when asked to stop was to lay down. I originally taught her sit means sit but also I found the biggest answer to my problem was asking for a sit stay - when she lay down I quietly took her by the collar and tied her up and let my other dog off for a play. Problem sorted - she has been touch wood pretty reliable ever since.

She valued the opportunity to play with her toy so highly that a simple removal of the reward opportunity clarified what she was suppose to be doing.

I should say I had of course built up duration pretty gradually and she was up to around 50 seconds when she kept deciding she could get that far but would go no longer. We had reached a sticking point but after that she quickly built to 3 min+++ fairly reliably.

Also work on duration before distance before distraction so work at getting a stay with you right in front or at the side where she really has no room to lay down.

Edited January 24, 2011 by ness

[Staranais]

Problem is she sits, good dog, reward, praise, reward, give her a stay command-She drops...................everytime.

Sounds like "stay" has become associated with "down" to her. I'd stop giving the stay with the sit - just say "sit" and gradually reward after longer & longer times.

The command stay is unnecessary if you use a clear release command - I never use a stay with sit (although I do use it with down if I'm going to wander off and leave her for a while, so I guess for us "stay" just is an informational cue that means "please stay lying down even though I'm going to wander off and leave you for a while!").

Ness's advice is good too.

[piper]

I would also just use sit. Ask for a sit, delay the reward and give a release word so that sit means sit until told to do something else. It has worked for a few border collies I know who decided that stay meant remain in that spot and the position is optional

[The Spotted Devil]

I use the steady feet game to reinforce sit (until I say otherwise) and life rewards - 5.5 month old pup will not only sit when the side gate is opened but will sit with Spotted Dog in a park until released. She has also generalised it to retrieve training and won't fetch the dummy until I release her. She clearly can discriminate as last night I asked her to heel into position and she broke straight away to retrieve when Mr TSD started to throw the dummy. Went back to sit and she didn't move a muscle.

I think a lot of dogs don't understand the exercise ie that stay means stay in one place in the same position. I probably train and reinforce sit stays with my Dally 75:25 compared to drop stays.

[Diva]

If you use a hand signal with the stay command check that it doesn't look like a down signal to the dog. Sometimes a dog that responds quickly will get it confused initially.

[Staranais]

I think a lot of dogs don't understand the exercise ie that stay means stay in one place in the same position. I probably train and reinforce sit stays with my Dally 75:25 compared to drop stays.

That's a good point. I find my girl will often revert back to the behaviours that have been reinforced frequently recently if she's feeling at all confused or frustrated about position changes.

Can you please explain the steady feet game, TSD?

[Vickie]

I know exactly how impossible it is with a dog like Abby.

I tried to get Trim to sit stay forever! for agility.

Can't help you, I gave up

I reckon if they have a default down on sheep, it's near impossible to train a sit stay in any situation where they show intensity.

Shine was easy but she is much more upright on sheep.

The steady feet game might work and the fact that you need it for a boring situation might calm her a bit.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think a lot of dogs don't understand the exercise ie that stay means stay in one place in the same position. I probably train and reinforce sit stays with my Dally 75:25 compared to drop stays.

That's a good point. I find my girl will often revert back to the behaviours that have been reinforced frequently recently if she's feeling at all confused or frustrated about position changes.

Can you please explain the steady feet game, TSD?

A great saying I picked up: a dog that doesn't perform as expected either doesn't understand the task or is not getting paid enough

I picked up the "steady feet" game at Sue Hogben's seminar. It's not the easiest thing to describe - much easier to demonstrate...however...

Initially trained in the sit position. Ask dog to sit but otherwise keep mouth SHUT (hardest bit ). Have one hand full of small pieces of yummy food. Slowly bring once piece of food with other hand towards dog's nose/mouth. Keep your eye on the dog's FEET. If the dog's feet remain perfectly still, move the food very rapidly into the dog's mouth (yum!) Make it harder. If the dog gets up or moves a paw, do NOT say a word (!!!!) - just fly the food rapidly away from the dog. Don't make it too hard or too easy. 80% success rate is about right. Gradually ask for more from the dog and bring the food in from every angle - above, below, on the side, behind. Zig knows the game now and my expectation that he doesn't lean towards anything but looks me directly in the eye - he's very funny The dog learns quickly that it's about cause and effect - then progress to the stand and start easy again, progressing to standing over your dog eventually and not having them flinch. Eventually have others approaching the dog and they get the food for staying still and looking at you. When Zig does a stand for exam, his whole body bends and leans and wags whilst he greets the judge but he never moves a foot

Also great for building confidence for sit stays and food refusal (should you choose to do that one). I like it because it teaches the dog to control what happens - it's his choice!

Edited January 24, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[Staranais]

Thanks for that explanation TSD! I might have a play with our stand stays using that technique - she is already pretty good but I like to reteach her things in lots of different ways since I think it aids understanding.

[megan_]

Maybe remove the "say". Just a quick "sit, free" and then increase the time between the two?

[dasha]

thanks for the advice.

I had gone to just reinforcing sits and using a bridge word for her release so she would wait very attentatively. Then I progressed to making her sit beside a family member who was sitting on lounge holding the cat they were also going to use for job.

She was going ok but the hardest thing she found was sitting next to someone and not be allowed to jump all over them......and also the fact that the cat was one she is scared of so didn't want to sit too close.

Then as next plan was coming into place to train her to sit next to cat, in true film and TV industry fashion the agent called to say that they have changed the cat and dog now to another breed.

So I now don't need to do it at all.

Edited January 27, 2011 by dasha

[PAX]

in true film and TV industry fashion the agent called to say yhaht they have chnaged the cat and dog now to another breed.

So I now don't need to do it at all.

Don't you just hate that. :D

[dasha]

Yes I do PAX. In the past I usually haven't needed to do any real pre training as my other dogs have been trained enough to do most things. This time they picked the one that has only done one job as a pup then trained as a sheepdog so no real formal obedience. So I put the work in and they cancel.

Oh well, her sit stays are better ready for next time

[PAX]

I feel your pain:))