~Anne~ Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 The difference is that here if a person is an idiot and takes their dog out and it has no manners - jumps all over people cocks its leg on dining room table legs etc rather than simply chucking the owner and the dog out we bring in laws - in case we are also idiots.If someone walks their dog off leash and it bounds all over sun bakers and drops a darky their owners dont pick up - rather than go after the idiots we bring in laws in case we are idiots too. If someone allows their dog to roam and have unwanted puppies all over town we bring in compulsory desexing in case everyone else is an idiot too. If someone breeds a bunch of puppies in filthy conditions we bring in laws which chase off the competition and those doing the right thing just in case we all breed too many in rotten conditions instead of bouncing the rotten idiots out of existence. Then when the laws dont do anything to control the idiots because there is no ability to police them anyway and all they do is ensure we cant enjoy our dogs the way we want to they bring in more and more and more laws - in case. Whats more they beat their drum and brain wash half the population into believing its the answer when world wide its proven that it isnt the answer. Fabulous post! Your post cuts to the heart of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Goemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hi everyone, as a German I can confirm that you can take your dog everywhere in Germany (except supermarkets & food stores). During studying I had my collie girl Peaches with me every day, she always slept under my chair. =) We also don't have to keep our dogs on leashes all the time (she didn't wear a collar pretty much the first 4 years in her life). But keeping a dog in Germany is expensive (registration 170 Euro/year, compulsory liability insurance 200 Euros/year and if you have a second dog it's MORE expensive for the second one). Hardly any dog is desexed. Most dogs are pretty social but you do get issues with entire males. Pretty much all dogs are kept inside and walked 3-4 times a day (or you will very quickly have an animal welfare organisation knocking on your door). They are seen as family members. You can rent everywhere with your dog, that's not an issue at all (probably due to the fact that all dogs are insured and in case they destroy something insurance will always cover it). But then rental laws are VERY different, too, and we don't have inspections and stuff like that. As a tenant you pretty much can do with the rental place whatever you want (apart from tearing down walls) as long as you put it back in the state it was in before you moved in. But that's just on the side. =) It was quite a shock to my system that I can't take my dogs anywhere and have to keep them on leash all the time. =O I think in Germany it's much more a privilege to have a dog than a right... Cheers, Anissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thanks Anissa, you've pretty much confirmed for me how backward Australian attiudes to dogs are... Now... who's moving to Germany with me? Hi everyone,as a German I can confirm that you can take your dog everywhere in Germany (except supermarkets & food stores). During studying I had my collie girl Peaches with me every day, she always slept under my chair. =) We also don't have to keep our dogs on leashes all the time (she didn't wear a collar pretty much the first 4 years in her life). But keeping a dog in Germany is expensive (registration 170 Euro/year, compulsory liability insurance 200 Euros/year and if you have a second dog it's MORE expensive for the second one). Hardly any dog is desexed. Most dogs are pretty social but you do get issues with entire males. Pretty much all dogs are kept inside and walked 3-4 times a day (or you will very quickly have an animal welfare organisation knocking on your door). They are seen as family members. You can rent everywhere with your dog, that's not an issue at all (probably due to the fact that all dogs are insured and in case they destroy something insurance will always cover it). But then rental laws are VERY different, too, and we don't have inspections and stuff like that. As a tenant you pretty much can do with the rental place whatever you want (apart from tearing down walls) as long as you put it back in the state it was in before you moved in. But that's just on the side. =) It was quite a shock to my system that I can't take my dogs anywhere and have to keep them on leash all the time. =O I think in Germany it's much more a privilege to have a dog than a right... Cheers, Anissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 It's really interesting how in Germany and Finland it seems that if you don't walk your dog regularly you will have someone 'knocking on your door' but when it was mooted here there were a lot of objections to that, based on minority factors such as old dogs that can't walk or disabled owners that can't walk, I assume that it works in these other countries because these factors are taken into account? Maybe someone can answer from these countries what happens when they knock on your door? Do the authorities take extenuating circumstances (such as disability of owner or dog) when looking into why the dog isn't being walked? How are things like problem barking managed over there? Thanks to our overseas contributors by the way you are offering a great perspective :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KKDD Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I think part of the reason Australians dont value and care for their dogs as well as people in some other countries is that we have a lot of space and a great climate, so mostly you can choose option of simply leaving your dog outside in the backyard and ignoring it. With that option so widely available, the collective philosophy around dog ownership is different to that in affluent european countries where the climate and the population density (lack of space) mean that owning a dog necessarily means having a dog indoors at least part of the year. So the expectation about the relationship you will have with your dog, and the committment that is required in owning one, is different. IHere its just easier here, to take the slack route, so a lot of people do and this has flow on effects about how many dogs conduct themselves in public, and the attitudes about where dogs should be allowed to accompany their owners. While of course there will be overlap between the attitudes and experiences in all the countries, 'normal' in Australia lies closer to the end of the spectrum that affluent european cultures might consider 'neglect', while 'normal' in those countries probably lies closer to the higher end of the caring spectrum here, (or the average attitude of a person who is interested in being part of DOL). Across the whole population, it makes for a much happier situation for the dogs in affluent european countries, than here. i dont know that a dog in a poorer european country fares particularly well however. Like poor countries everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 A friend moved back to Sweden in 2009 and took her dog, Jack, with her. Here...she really struggled to find a rental house that would allow her to have a dog, but in Sweden it's not an issue at all. She, her two boys, a cat and two snakes are all happily living in an apartment. Jack....a rescue dog, adopted from the AWL is happy in the snow, and in the apartment. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Do more people work fulltime in Australia than European countries? I wouldn't have a clue, just wondering if that could make a difference. I know about 90% of my friends work fulltime and have to in order to afford their mortgage/rent... walking a dog 3 or 4 times every day would be very difficult and prohibitive... before work, after work and after dinner? What if you played sport or went out to dinner or had friends over or had another hobby? We are hoping to spend our honeymoon in Finland and surrounding countries at the end of the year... so I'm sure it will be interesting :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max#1 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Do more people work fulltime in Australia than European countries? I wouldn't have a clue, just wondering if that could make a difference. I know about 90% of my friends work fulltime and have to in order to afford their mortgage/rent... walking a dog 3 or 4 times every day would be very difficult and prohibitive... before work, after work and after dinner? What if you played sport or went out to dinner or had friends over or had another hobby? :pWe are hoping to spend our honeymoon in Finland and surrounding countries at the end of the year... so I'm sure it will be interesting On that front, I have some possibly out-of-date information about Germany at least. My OH and I were talking about it just last night. If you are a couple, both working, the second person gets taxed to the point its nearly not worth working. On the other hand, if you are a couple, and only one works, they actually pay less tax than they would if they were single. Add to that, if there are children, then you pay less tax again. Tax in Germany though makes up nearly 50% of income in the first place, with lots of compulsory insurances that you have to pay. Though a lot of things, like food, alcohol, going out to eat, are cheaper (though petrol/electricity are a lot more expensive). Anyway, that possibly influences how people work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpotTheDog Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Do more people work fulltime in Australia than European countries? I wouldn't have a clue, just wondering if that could make a difference. I know about 90% of my friends work fulltime and have to in order to afford their mortgage/rent... walking a dog 3 or 4 times every day would be very difficult and prohibitive... before work, after work and after dinner? What if you played sport or went out to dinner or had friends over or had another hobby? Different lifestyle, different resources. If you can take your dog everywhere, it isn't that hard to take them out three or four times a day. Out for a coffee, bring the dog. Meet friends in a central town square, bring the dog. Go to the library, bring the dog. Dogs that aren't forbidden indoors - suddenly you can bring your dog to lots of places that you can't bring it to here. 'walking the dog' doesn't necessarily mean pounding the pavements, it just means taking the dog with you when you leave the house. The dogs in the yard thing isn't to do with the good weather in Austraila - it's to do with people here thinking that a pet is one of the natural life steps - you know the ones, get born, start school, leave school, start a job, meet a girl, get married, buy a house, get pregnant, have a second kid so the first one won't be an only child... except 'get a dog' is a routine step usually between meet a girl, get married and buy a house. So it goes: meet a girl, get a dog, she likes the dog too, hooray, get married, buy a house, get pregnant, when the baby's born freak out over the dog, leave the dog in the back yard and ignore it for the rest of its natural life, unless it starts barking, in which case leave it down the pound. There is a similar issue in Ireland and the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) I would love to be able to take a dog or two with me wherever I go. As it is, if I have to nick into town for something I take a dog for a car ride, unless it's too hot and I'm going to be a while because I can't leave the dog alone in the car. If I could take the dog into shops with me though, it would be fantastic. I loved that in Europe dogs were welcome everywhere. That's how it should be here. Edited January 23, 2011 by GayleK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Sorry, getting a bit off topic here but... OH plays soccer over the cooler months, and I take the dogs to his games on weekends. We just sit on the sidelines but the dogs love getting out and about, getting pats from all the team members... and they also learn to sit still and wait calmly. Interestingly, we don't see many other dogs at the games, even though a lot of girlfriends/wives/kids/friends show up. People have actually asked me in a perplexed tone, "Why do you bring the dogs with you?" Ummm, why not? I like spending time with them, they like being there. So I think that the restrictions on where dogs can be taken in Australia has definitely helped create the attitude that dogs should just be at home in the backyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie10 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 This conversation started from 'Caucasian Ovcharka thread' and I was asked if I could start this new thread which I can willingly do. ;) What I have learned about aussie dog culture within these few moths I have been here, those dogs are not suitable to your environment. You already have too much abandoned dogs (we don't in Finland, instead people are resquing dogs from Estonia, Spain etc.) Warning, my post is Hi Elina Do hope you're still tuned in, or will be soon! I'm very interested in your comment above, from page 3 of this thread. Can you explain why Finland does not have an abandoned dog problem please? As it is off-topic, it would be best if you could start a new thread. Many thanks! I have found this thread very interesting - I had not heard of the Caucasian Ovcharka before. What a difficult question and I don't know if I can give absolutely correct answer but I can try. I just want to let you know that this is not 'which country is the best' conversation. I just tell about Finnish dog culture. I know there is people from other European (or other continents) countries as well. They could tell about their countries. First a little background information. Population in Finland is a bit over five million and estimate is that every fifth household has a dog or two. You are allowed to takes dogs all parks, to buses, trains etc. It is allowed and common to keep dogs in apartments even in city CBD's. It is not allowed to sell puppies in pet stores so most puppies are purchased from responsible breeders who are very thorough to whom they sell their puppies. People train dogs a lot. We have loads of dog clubs and also commercial training companies etc. Even Finland is a very small country breeders from all over the world respects Finnish dogs, trainers and breeders whether it is about dog shows, obedience, agility or schutchund. We have won world championship and European championship contests in many dog sports. It is easy to travel outside the country border for dog shows and other competitions. It is also easy to import (and export) dogs since we don't have quarantines in Europe. Of course we have problems as well, but we have quite strict Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. If you don't take your dog for walks, you may soon have someone knocking on your door and ask some questions. There really isn't many abandoned dogs. With cats situation is a bit more difficult. In greater Helsinki area (about 1 million people live in that area) there is one place where all free roaming animals are taken and they have capacity for 100 animals total. This includes places for cats and all other animals as well. They have told that there haven't ever been a situation that there won't be room for new incoming animals. Basically all dogs who's owners won't come to pick them up, will found new homes, which is just great. We don't really have so many situations that people just abandon their dog. With cats that happen more often, especially after summer :p There have been many campaigns that people wouldn't take "summer cats" and those have worked quite well. I think what I have said about Finnish dog culture will fit quite well also to Sweden, Norway and Denmark. I don't say that we don't have problems with dogs in these countries, but I think we may have have lesser problems. Because situation in Finland is very good, people who wants to help dogs which have been taken on the custody or are abandoned, travel often to our southern neighbour country Estonia, where situation is totally different. They have very different dog culture than in Finland and many dogs are abandoned and won't find new homes. Finally apologizes about the misspellings. I was amazed our first night in Stockholm we went into a pub and there were a couple of dogs in there with their owners. I was thrilled. I also bailed up several poor Swedes with dogs on the trains :D There were fenced dog parks everywhere we went. It seemed like a very dog friendly nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie10 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 A friend moved back to Sweden in 2009 and took her dog, Jack, with her. Here...she really struggled to find a rental house that would allow her to have a dog, but in Sweden it's not an issue at all. She, her two boys, a cat and two snakes are all happily living in an apartment. Jack....a rescue dog, adopted from the AWL is happy in the snow, and in the apartment. I'm jealous now... I'd move to Sweden in a heartbeat if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Actually Elina says: "Of course we have problems as well, but we have quite strict Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. I'd like to hear more about what the rules are, both for breeders and for pets . . . and how they are enforced. When I lived in Germany with a dog, I seem to remember there were quite a few rules and very high licensing fees. What was different was that people would tell you off if you broke rules . . . leaving much less for the equivalents of the RSPCA and rangers to do. The breed mix was quite different too. I'm in the US (California) now. It's more like Australia than Northern Europe. The difference is that here if a person is an idiot and takes their dog out and it has no manners - jumps all over people cocks its leg on dining room table legs etc rather than simply chucking the owner and the dog out we bring in laws - in case we are also idiots.If someone walks their dog off leash and it bounds all over sun bakers and drops a darky their owners dont pick up - rather than go after the idiots we bring in laws in case we are idiots too. If someone allows their dog to roam and have unwanted puppies all over town we bring in compulsory desexing in case everyone else is an idiot too. If someone breeds a bunch of puppies in filthy conditions we bring in laws which chase off the competition and those doing the right thing just in case we all breed too many in rotten conditions instead of bouncing the rotten idiots out of existence. Then when the laws dont do anything to control the idiots because there is no ability to police them anyway and all they do is ensure we cant enjoy our dogs the way we want to they bring in more and more and more laws - in case. Whats more they beat their drum and brain wash half the population into believing its the answer when world wide its proven that it isnt the answer. Edited January 23, 2011 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessiesTracey Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Except in parts of Germany BSL exists sadly, which would count me out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Goemann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hi everyone, I can only tell from my experience but I have (after finishing studies) always worked full time (8-10hours/day) but took my dog to work with me (I worked in research at the university, physics institute). She was in my office sleeping under my desk all day (I wouldn't take her in the lab which was just opposite side of the corridor as the pumps on my instrument where pretty noisy) and I took her for a walk at lunchtime. A lot of my friends with dogs do the same (take them to work) or go home over lunch to walk their dogs then. If that is not possible you just get someone to walk your dog for you (friend, relative,dogsitter). My normal doggie walking time used to be 8-9 am (on the way to work), 12.30 - 1pm, 5-6pm (walk home from work) and a very short walk before bedtime every day. But I always walked to work with her so it was easy to incorporate into my schedule. As I said before: I had my dog with me everywhere. =) It is even common when you visit friends to take your dog with you. This of course requires a dog that is very well mannered or you'll be in trouble. :p I also took her with me to the gym, she was just waiting in the corner until I was finished. If I really didn't want to take her she was just at home happily sleeping in her bed. Cheers, Anissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I'd love to be able to take my dog/s to work. My colleagues would be disgusted And I'd love to live within walking distance of work too! We took our two dogs on holidays with us over Xmas, 15 hours drive each way, and they were really well behaved. But we rarely found anywhere to stop along the way where we could even have our dogs sit under the table while we ate... they were generally tethered outside the eating area so that we could still see them. We had lots of people admiring them and letting us know how well behaved they are (although they were tethered... not like they could get up to too much mischief anyway LOL) so I think at least some people would be happy to see more dogs around with their owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anissa Goemann Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I really miss having my dogs ( I got a second one later) with me. It was always great having them under my desk all the time... But I don't work in walking distance anymore and by now just leave them outside during the day (if the weather is nice) rather than walking them then. So we are down to 3 walks now. :p Back then Peaches was the mascot of the physics institute and she was wll known all over the town as she came with me giving lectures. (I studied at a rather small university in Germany, it was right in the middle of the Harz mountains: Clausthal Zellerfeld) It was always hilarious to see her look of disapproval if students were laughing too loudly or started talking. She would always lie in front of the table keeping an eye on them. hehe That was very cute. Cheers, Anissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elina Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Do more people work fulltime in Australia than European countries? I wouldn't have a clue, just wondering if that could make a difference. I know about 90% of my friends work fulltime and have to in order to afford their mortgage/rent... walking a dog 3 or 4 times every day would be very difficult and prohibitive... before work, after work and after dinner? What if you played sport or went out to dinner or had friends over or had another hobby? ;)We are hoping to spend our honeymoon in Finland and surrounding countries at the end of the year... so I'm sure it will be interesting I don't understand what is so difficult to take dogs for a walks three times a day? For me it has been self-evidence since I have dogs in apartment. Me and my friens all have dogs in apartment and work fulltime. None of us can't unfurtunately take dogs to work. I take dogs out before work. That is very short walk, just 15 minutes or something like that. After work it is time for a longer walk, usually 1-2 hours. Then last walk is before I go to bed, also short walk just like during the morning. That is the normal day rutine. We also do obedience and agility often and many times spend whole evening outside with my friends and dogs. Dog owners who cares about their dogs don't usually hand around in cafes after work if they work fulltime. "What if you played sport" Why would you take a dog if you don't have time for it? "...or went out to dinner" Does it take whole evening? Why can't you choose to go on your day off? "or had friends over" Sorry, I don't understand? Of course you say that you have to walk your dog first and tell them what time they can come over. "or had another hobby?" Again, why would you take dog if you don't have time for it? If you want another hobby, then I hope there is someone else in your family, who will walk your dog. If I would have a big yard, then you maybe wouldn't need to do the first and last walk of the day, but of course dogs need to have at least one good walking adventure every day. I hope you will enjoy Finland in your honeymoon :p Which are the other where countries you are going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I don't understand what is so difficult to take dogs for a walks three times a day? For me it has been self-evidence since I have dogs in apartment. Me and my friens all have dogs in apartment and work fulltime. None of us can't unfurtunately take dogs to work. I take dogs out before work. That is very short walk, just 15 minutes or something like that. After work it is time for a longer walk, usually 1-2 hours. Then last walk is before I go to bed, also short walk just like during the morning. That is the normal day rutine. We also do obedience and agility often and many times spend whole evening outside with my friends and dogs. Dog owners who cares about their dogs don't usually hand around in cafes after work if they work fulltime. If we are talking 15 minute walks then that's fine. I was thinking longer than that... my two love sleeping at our feet watching TV at night. Of course I do take them out some nights to training or for a walk or to the dog park, but when we get home they just want to spend time with us. Most of my friends don't have dogs. The ones that do, I met at dog club or on this forum ;) Why would you take a dog if you don't have time for it? I think this is where attitudes are different between countries... I play sport (or I did before I injured my knee), I have hobbies, but I also think that I have enough time to have happy, healthy dogs They are walked every day before work, go to obedience training, socialise with other dogs regularly, go to the dog park, get trained at home. Occasionally they would be at home while we're at work, then we'd come home, give them a quick play and feed and go out to dinner or to sports training. I know that you will probably be shocked at that but people who have met my dogs can confirm that they are both happy, well socialised and adaptable... I have met dogs who get a lot less attention than mine who are also happy... so where do we draw the line between having enough time for them and not? :p I hope you will enjoy Finland in your honeymoon Which are the other where countries you are going? We're not sure yet! We are hoping to be there around Christmas. Our wedding is in a few weeks time so I'll start organising the honeymoon after that :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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