Elina Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 IngeK: Very good post Me and my boyfriend have been travelling around Australia with a campervan and what has been the most unbelievable thing is that you are not allowed to take dogs to all caravan parks! I just can't understand it! You are staying in your own vehicle and still can't take dogs (or any other pets) there with you. I don't think there is any caravan park in the whole Europe where you couldn't take dogs with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IngeK Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 IngeK:Very good post Me and my boyfriend have been travelling around Australia with a campervan and what has been the most unbelievable thing is that you are not allowed to take dogs to all caravan parks! I just can't understand it! You are staying in your own vehicle and still can't take dogs (or any other pets) there with you. I don't think there is any caravan park in the whole Europe where you couldn't take dogs with you. yep agree:) we used to take them camping through Europe and never had a problem. Only 1 time in Italy when we took the bus to Venice our dog (we had 1 at the time) had to be muzzled. All dogs had to wear a muzzle on the bus so we borrowed one at the camping...way to big for our dog but the driver was fine with it What about walking in the bush?.....no dogs! not even when on lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 That's right Elina. we take our dogs, and cats, caravanning and have to plan things around where we are allowed to take them. We have often had to stay on the side of a road... Mind you, a few years ago NO parks would take them. As so many retirees are travelling with pets now, things had to change or the parks just would not get any business (so dollar related). I think one large group of parks under one umbrella, do not allow pets at all. Shame as these parks are everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiekaye Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 That's right Elina.we take our dogs, and cats, caravanning and have to plan things around where we are allowed to take them. We have often had to stay on the side of a road... Mind you, a few years ago NO parks would take them. As so many retirees are travelling with pets now, things had to change or the parks just would not get any business (so dollar related). I think one large group of parks under one umbrella, do not allow pets at all. Shame as these parks are everywhere. When I first came to Australia with my Kelpie "Bo" we traveled in a van right round Australia for a year. I had a book "Traveling with a Dog" and planned ahead as much as possible. I didnt reallly have a problem finding dog friendly caravan parks except in Broome (only one and its out off town a bit) and Between Broome and Perth. The dog friendly parks are better anyway, much nicer people IMHO. Being on my own I was guilty of tying my dog up either to my van or outside shops while I got groceries etc. NZ is probably even worse with No Dog Rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 There is no good reason why Australian perceptions could not change re: pet ownership with education,rather than the usual knee jerk reaction of legislation. I also grew up in a country with similar attitudes to Finland,and when my family migrated here there were dogs every where! I thought I was in heaven. As the Aussie culture has "matured" tho',dogs have been left out in the cold so to speak.I believe much could and would change with education that I think is badly needed in our schools on "animal studies" with a bias towards companion animals.So many city folks these days have little or no idea of the animals society has always depended on in one way or another,and that have helped humanity to develop.It is an unhealthy ideal for many reasons. Legislation that pushes animals further into the background of our conciousness and out of sight only adds to the problem. These countries with with such good results see dogs as dogs,yes,but not as acessories.Getting a dog is seen as adding a (doggy) member to the family and its natural that such a big decision should be well thought out and considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 The difference is that here if a person is an idiot and takes their dog out and it has no manners - jumps all over people cocks its leg on dining room table legs etc rather than simply chucking the owner and the dog out we bring in laws - in case we are also idiots. If someone walks their dog off leash and it bounds all over sun bakers and drops a darky their owners dont pick up - rather than go after the idiots we bring in laws in case we are idiots too. If someone allows their dog to roam and have unwanted puppies all over town we bring in compulsory desexing in case everyone else is an idiot too. If someone breeds a bunch of puppies in filthy conditions we bring in laws which chase off the competition and those doing the right thing just in case we all breed too many in rotten conditions instead of bouncing the rotten idiots out of existence. Then when the laws dont do anything to control the idiots because there is no ability to police them anyway and all they do is ensure we cant enjoy our dogs the way we want to they bring in more and more and more laws - in case. Whats more they beat their drum and brain wash half the population into believing its the answer when world wide its proven that it isnt the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IngeK Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Great post Steve! But isnt that the same for a lot of owners? (thats what I was getting at with the training) -rather then to put some toilet training in the dog has to live outside -rather then to put some traing in for chewing things, the dog has to live outside -rather then to work on some behaviour problems, the dogs gets dump in the kennel or even gets pts -rather then walking the dogs because they get fat, the dogs food gets changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Great post Steve! But isnt that the same for a lot of owners? (thats what I was getting at with the training)-rather then to put some toilet training in the dog has to live outside -rather then to put some traing in for chewing things, the dog has to live outside -rather then to work on some behaviour problems, the dogs gets dump in the kennel or even gets pts -rather then walking the dogs because they get fat, the dogs food gets changed Yep definitely but if we could take them more places and live more freely with them if they had good manners perhaps more people would be stimulated into ensuring more had good manners. If taking your dog to the local cafe and enjoying human company with people who had dogs in common, if taking them to more places promoted them as a breed and showed people what can be done if they have good manners perhaps more people would see a bigger reward for them as well as their dogs if they went a bit further with ensuring they could be taken out and included. Idiots cant be cured and there will always be some but its difficult to understand why its become so restictive. The more you restrict them the less socialised they become, the less places you can take them the less time you spend in their company. When I was a kid - dogs were everywhere and people knew if their dog was going to give anyone or any other animal any grief chances were it would be shot. If you got a new puppy it was shared around the neighbourhood, mixed with lots of kids and other dogs and they just tagged along with everything we did. Neighbour idiots were dealt with quickly with a knock on the door and told to pull their dogs into line quickly or have it reported and taken away. When it was taken away it was dead - no second chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin-Genie Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Very interesting insight, it makes me wish Australia were more like Finland.Do you think that being able to take dogs everywhere with you, means that people value them more? I know if I could take my dog on the bus, to cafes and restaurants, shops, etc. I would be able to spend so much more time with him. It probably results in better behaved dogs as well. My Dad travelled to the Netherlands quite frequently a few years ago, and he said it is much like that there. You walk into a cafe and most tables have a dog under them, just sleeping with their owners. I can't see that happening in Australia, as many of the dogs would probably be crazy and undersocialised. It's a real shame, but hopefully the attitude starts to change here. There are some cafes and restaurants in NSW that allow dogs in the outside area. I have one such restaurant near me and I often take our two dogs when we go out go dinner. My dogs sit near the table and usually people come over to pet them. The first time I did this, my dogs went a little crazy. But now they are used to going out and sitting quietly. I wish there were more such places. I think it would definitely socialize the dogs more and improve the human- dog bonding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Legislation seeks to replace the the basic concepts of good animal husbandry,and can only fail. Unwritten rules are far more likely to be adhered to if the reasons for them are understood. Humanity is still very interdependent with animals and domestic animals provide a missing link with the natural world in a cosmopolitan society. Education is needed. Legislation assumes that people choose to fail when that is rarely true.Anyone with an interest in this thread,might want to look at the "in the news"section (Greens Pet Crackdown-media release) and follow the links to see the results that have been acheived in Calgary,Canada with a different approach. Steve, Sorry I couldn't be of more help with your other enterprises,but I will keep plugging away her on DOL as long as I see people applauding legislation. Edited January 23, 2011 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Steve: The more you restrict them the less socialised they become, the less places you can take them the less time you spend in their company...If you got a new puppy it was shared around the neighbourhood, mixed with lots of kids and other dogs and they just tagged along with everything we did. Neighbour idiots were dealt with quickly with a knock on the door and told to pull their dogs into line quickly or have it reported and taken away... Yep precisely. This is what I do even in suburbia - houses or townhouse complexes makes no difference. All my animalsover the years have been personally introduced to the neighbours. They know them by name and occasionally look after them for me when I'm away - and they all get a turn! One of my neighbours is very fond of my westie girl Sarah and talks to her across the fence! (I suggested a doggie door in the fence but her hubby felt that was getting a bit tooo cosy!) They are part of this community and I have an agreement with the community that if they are ever any problem to please let me know and I'll do something about it. And I've never had one complaint over the years and years I've had aninals - not one. And at the moment I have 4 animals here in inner suburban Adelaide - a divine moggie and the three westies. So like other posters, I think many of the restrictions we have around dogs in Australia actually causes the problems. So its time for significant attitude change and enlightenment European style... Edited January 23, 2011 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yes!!!! :D :laugh: The difference is that here if a person is an idiot and takes their dog out and it has no manners - jumps all over people cocks its leg on dining room table legs etc rather than simply chucking the owner and the dog out we bring in laws - in case we are also idiots.If someone walks their dog off leash and it bounds all over sun bakers and drops a darky their owners dont pick up - rather than go after the idiots we bring in laws in case we are idiots too. If someone allows their dog to roam and have unwanted puppies all over town we bring in compulsory desexing in case everyone else is an idiot too. If someone breeds a bunch of puppies in filthy conditions we bring in laws which chase off the competition and those doing the right thing just in case we all breed too many in rotten conditions instead of bouncing the rotten idiots out of existence. Then when the laws dont do anything to control the idiots because there is no ability to police them anyway and all they do is ensure we cant enjoy our dogs the way we want to they bring in more and more and more laws - in case. Whats more they beat their drum and brain wash half the population into believing its the answer when world wide its proven that it isnt the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polecatty Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Who wants to move to Europe with me then Sounds like paradise Almost meter of snow, all roads icy and -25 degrees. If that is your idea of paradise, happy journey Tell you the truth, only reason why people don't abandon their dogs, is because who could have a heart to abandon your dog in the middle of the horrible winter :D Well, summer is beautiful and it will be light whole night as well. I've been taken with the idea of putting Max in snow since reading that delightful blog/comic strip/cartoon about the two dogs that have to move across the country and find themselves in snow. I can't think of the name of it, but there's the 'simple' dog and the 'helper' dog. I can imagine Max would be absolutely delighted! I've done blitz ice, and seen snow sparkling blue, and it does seem kind of nice. You have to pay a price for culture (dog culture!). Hyperbole and a Half. Love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) moosmum: Legislation seeks to replace the the basic concepts of good animal husbandry,and can only fail.Unwritten rules are far more likely to be adhered to if the reasons for them are understood. moosmum this is so true. And works in the workplace too. I work in human resources (for the moment!) and in this field and in dog behaviour as well 'you can't teach "not"!. The HR field is changing from the 'policy police' (don't do this, don't do that) to much smarter ways of encouraging people to behave reasonably in the workplace, thorough principles, codes of conduct, workplace expectation etc. And I don't believe dog behaviour in public and in local communities is any different. We train our dogs using positive reinforcers (teach them what we want, not what we don't want, which is what legislation does) and this needs to be extended to community ground rules and expectations. And community 'enforcement' (for want of a better word) will always be more successful than legislative enforcement. Australia is the most over governed country on the face of the planet IMO - and sadly dog legislation is not different. Edited January 23, 2011 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freundhund Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. I am actually begining to feel quite priveliged. I live in the inner City of Sydney and have German Shepherds and have had in the inner city for almost 30 years., with no problems taking my dogs most places. Sydney City Council is very pro-dog Council, Sydney Park which is a very large park is an off-lead park. King Street, Newtown has so many coffee shops and resturants withoutside areas where you can sit and have coffee or dinner with your dog, with no problems whatsoever, frequently the wiater/waitress will bring out a plastic disposable container of water for your dogs. Some cafes you can ask for something off the menu for your dog, which is given to the dog again in a disposable plastic container. I have never, ever had a problem either in most shops in taking the dogs in, a lot of shops eg chemists and supermarket have a ring screwed into the wall for the dogs to be tied to away from the traffic while you go in. Also I have noticed parents with young children in Newtown are very dog aware and will ask before child pats the dog. Marrickville Council is tending to go towards a more positive attitued towards dogs as well, I find going down Marrickville Rd that again no problems having coffee and something to eat with the dog/s. Also in both Sydney and Marrickville Council areas there tends to now be units/apartments being sold were the body corporate rules have been changed to allow pets, with this being a main selling point for the units and people being advised not to buy unless they liked animals. Included on DA when I have gone and looked have been specific toilet areas for the dogs to use and in one unit block they had a dog washing area included!!! I think the main issue with dog ownership is for those in rental accommodation, unless you have references and are willing to offer a pet bond, accommodation is hard to obtain. Public transport does need to be worked on, as when I was in my teens and early 20's you could take dogs on buses and trains in the Sydney Metro area. I used to use public transport regularly with my dogs. IMHO it is the people who don't train their dogs, don't pick up after their dogs and have generally poor dog etiquette that makes it very difficult for the dog owners that do, do the right thing. For those of us that go to obedience training/clubs with our dogs, I think we could all say when you look at the dog population in your local suburb there are very few of dogs really being brought to training. And of course my biggest bugbear of all times is people with male dogs that allow the dog to cock its leg everywhere ie at the beach on other peoples clothing, in cafe's on chair legs or table legs. It is not necessary for a male dog to cock its leg, it can be trained not to cock. (Note I have trained 3 male shepherds not to cock) Why do guys think the higher their dog cocks its leg the more macho the dog is!!!!! Sorry about the length of my comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Oh and Elina I forgot to say how good it is to have you on DOL. I don't think we have many Scandinavian members. Hope you stick around and we hear much more from you and see more of your gorgeous dogs! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Very interesting thread Elina!!! Makes me want to move to Europe Only problem is my family is in Greece, Italy and Slovenia which is probably not so good with dogs as the Baltic states. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Will re-post when I've given it more thought. Edited January 23, 2011 by pewithers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elina Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Oh and Elina I forgot to say how good it is to have you on DOL. I don't think we have many Scandinavian members. Hope you stick around and we hear much more from you and see more of your gorgeous dogs! :D Thanks for your comment. I am not going anywhere Though because writing in English is not yet as easy as in Finnish, it keeps me not interfering to many threads. Very interesting thread Elina!!! Makes me want to move to Europe Only problem is my family is in Greece, Italy and Slovenia which is probably not so good with dogs as the Baltic states. Thanks, climate is not so great, but otherwise Europe is quite nice Greece, Italy and Slovenia has very good dog culture, I think. I have been only in Italy, but there was lots of dogs in busy streets of Venice and many of them off-lead walking with their owners. Then small correction: Finland does not belong to Baltic States. Finland is just part of the Northern Europe. Dog culture in Baltic Countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) is very different compared to Finland. Those are economically really poor countries and it is also seen in their dog culture. Finns rescue lots of dogs from Estonia where abandoned dogs are living in really poor conditions (especially winter is horrible for dogs, since they live mostly outdoor) but they refuse to euthanize animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) 'Interfere' as much as you like! Its really refreshing to have European thoughts and perceptions on these issues... Oh and Elina I forgot to say how good it is to have you on DOL. :D I don't think we have many Scandinavian members. Hope you stick around and we hear much more from you and see more of your gorgeous dogs! Thanks for your comment. I am not going anywhere Though because writing in English is not yet as easy as in Finnish, it keeps me not interfering to many threads. Very interesting thread Elina!!! Makes me want to move to Europe Only problem is my family is in Greece, Italy and Slovenia which is probably not so good with dogs as the Baltic states. Thanks, climate is not so great, but otherwise Europe is quite nice Greece, Italy and Slovenia has very good dog culture, I think. I have been only in Italy, but there was lots of dogs in busy streets of Venice and many of them off-lead walking with their owners. Then small correction: Finland does not belong to Baltic States. Finland is just part of the Northern Europe. Dog culture in Baltic Countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) is very different compared to Finland. Those are economically really poor countries and it is also seen in their dog culture. Finns rescue lots of dogs from Estonia where abandoned dogs are living in really poor conditions (especially winter is horrible for dogs, since they live mostly outdoor) but they refuse to euthanize animals. Edited January 23, 2011 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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