Jed Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 The regulations were changed in Qld when a member complained to the Dept of Fair Trading about the CCCQ preventing her selling pups to a pet shop. She was reported to the CCCQ for selling to a pet shop, which was against the regulations at the time. The CCCQ banned her, she went to the Dept of fair trading, and they told the CCCQ they couldn't restrict trade in that way, and if they continued to do so, the fine would be $30,000. The CCCQ then changed the rules. What hasn't changed is that registered breeders selling to pet shops are grubs, as they always were, and always will be. Decent breeders are responsible for their own pups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ark Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 just tell them all pups are desexed before leaving for their new homes. That will get rid of the bums that want to breed. Yes I might start saying that, Nekhbet. Good idea. ;) At least you do get rid of the real idiots. And I know we have to trust some people, Wuffles, but some people just ooze authenticity and enthusiasm and you know in your heart they are the right home for a pup. ;) It's just the frustration that gets to me. I know we shouldn't run other people down to make ourselves look good (one of my husband's favourite sayings) but it is just heartbreaking that there are so many uneducated people out there and they are allowed/enabled to buy puppies from any dodgy old breeder/pet shop. I do try to keep emotion out of my "education" talks....... I try to talk up the positives of buying a pup from a reputable breeder, but for yobbos like this there just isn't any justification for the ridiculous prices we apparently charge. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ark Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 The regulations were changed in Qld when a member complained to the Dept of Fair Trading about the CCCQ preventing her selling pups to a pet shop. She was reported to the CCCQ for selling to a pet shop, which was against the regulations at the time. The CCCQ banned her, she went to the Dept of fair trading, and they told the CCCQ they couldn't restrict trade in that way, and if they continued to do so, the fine would be $30,000. The CCCQ then changed the rules. What hasn't changed is that registered breeders selling to pet shops are grubs, as they always were, and always will be. Decent breeders are responsible for their own pups Is it still a restriction of trade if it is legislated by government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 There is someone near Victor Harbor SA who advertises poodle like puppies for sale on gumtree and they say they're a registered breeder. I rang up SACA and asked them and they said no way is that person registered with them and no reputable breeder (eg member of SACA) would sell via the trading post or gumtree or even breed without having potential owners lined up in advance. The trouble is that buyers who don't know any different don't understand the difference between "registered as a dog breeder with the local council" eg local government authority, and "registered as a breeder with the Canine association or kennel clubs". And the puppy mills, and petshops and gumtree sellers can easily print out "breed" certificates that look nice but are probably fraud, or they hand over "vaccination certificates" and call them "papers". So the buyer thinks they're getting a puppy with (pedigree) papers, and they are getting papers but not ones that will help them if they want to show dogs. If they never try to show the dogs they may never find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ark Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 There is someone near Victor Harbor SA who advertises poodle like puppies for sale on gumtree and they say they're a registered breeder. I rang up SACA and asked them and they said no way is that person registered with them and no reputable breeder (eg member of SACA) would sell via the trading post or gumtree or even breed without having potential owners lined up in advance. The trouble is that buyers who don't know any different don't understand the difference between "registered as a dog breeder with the local council" eg local government authority, and "registered as a breeder with the Canine association or kennel clubs". And the puppy mills, and petshops and gumtree sellers can easily print out "breed" certificates that look nice but are probably fraud, or they hand over "vaccination certificates" and call them "papers". So the buyer thinks they're getting a puppy with (pedigree) papers, and they are getting papers but not ones that will help them if they want to show dogs. If they never try to show the dogs they may never find out. Mrs RB I'm sure that does happen, and I forgot to agree with that aspect in my earlier reply. Yes, I'm sure some people think that "registration papers" are the Companion Animal ones. I had my boss at work tell me once that they bought the "Australian Champion" Dingo X for his parents, and what an awesome dog it was. "Australian Champion" was mentioned 3 times in the conversation. :rolleyes: ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 There is someone near Victor Harbor SA who advertises poodle like puppies for sale on gumtree and they say they're a registered breeder. I rang up SACA and asked them and they said no way is that person registered with them and no reputable breeder (eg member of SACA) would sell via the trading post or gumtree or even breed without having potential owners lined up in advance. The trouble is that buyers who don't know any different don't understand the difference between "registered as a dog breeder with the local council" eg local government authority, and "registered as a breeder with the Canine association or kennel clubs". And the puppy mills, and petshops and gumtree sellers can easily print out "breed" certificates that look nice but are probably fraud, or they hand over "vaccination certificates" and call them "papers". So the buyer thinks they're getting a puppy with (pedigree) papers, and they are getting papers but not ones that will help them if they want to show dogs. If they never try to show the dogs they may never find out. Plenty of registered reputable breeders, including a lot of DOLers, do advertise in the trading post and do breed without having homes lined up for all of the pups (or why do we need the Dogzonline puppy listings). I don't know about Gumtree as I never go there. One of my dogs came from the trading post from a very old well known kennel, I was looking for a pup and hadn't been able to find one I like or a litter in the planning I liked so I rang this add and was pleasantly suprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 my understanding is that the ankc allows it's registered breeders to cross breed dogs as long as the dogs they are using aren't ankc registered dogs. again, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busterdog Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) I think you'll find that even though our canine authorities don't want their Breeders selling to Petshops, the restriction of trade is actually illegal - I'm pretty sure that is the case for Dogs NSW. There are some things that should be and are outside the restriction of trade laws. If we had open slather free trade on everything, we would have free trade on slaves. We obviously don't and shouldn't have that. The ethical question becomes should we have free trade on all animals? I think not, some will disagree, but restriction of trade is a weak argument in trade of animals. Edited January 22, 2011 by Busterdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) my understanding is that the ankc allows it's registered breeders to cross breed dogs as long as the dogs they are using aren't ankc registered dogs.again, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong about this I think it is different state to state. In DogsNSW code of ethivs states 5. A Member shall not knowingly permit any of that Member's pure bred dogs to be matedto a dog of a different breed, to a cross-bred dog, or to any unregistered dog of the same breed or to a dog not on the Main Register unless:- i) such mating is for the health, welfare and/or the development of a breed or an aspect thereof, and ii) The member has obtained the prior approval of the Board of Directors. The prohibition against crossbreeding contained in this clause shall not apply to guide and working dogs. 12/08 I know that some other states don't have the exemption for working dogs. ETA I don't imagine the intent of the exemption for working dogs meant working breeds kept as suburban pets. Edited January 22, 2011 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ark Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 I think you'll find that even though our canine authorities don't want their Breeders selling to Petshops, the restriction of trade is actually illegal - I'm pretty sure that is the case for Dogs NSW. There are some things that should be and are outside the restriction of trade laws. If we had open slather free trade on everything, w would have free trade on slaves. We obviously don't and shouldnt have that. The ethical question becomes should we have free trdvon all animals? I think not, some will disagree, but restriction of trade is a weak argument in trade of animals. Nicely put, Busterdog! I was trying to think of a way to word that myself and you hit the nail right on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 my understanding is that the ankc allows it's registered breeders to cross breed dogs as long as the dogs they are using aren't ankc registered dogs.again, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong about this I think it is different state to state. In DogsNSW code of ethivs states 5. A Member shall not knowingly permit any of that Member's pure bred dogs to be matedto a dog of a different breed, to a cross-bred dog, or to any unregistered dog of the same breed or to a dog not on the Main Register unless:- i) such mating is for the health, welfare and/or the development of a breed or an aspect thereof, and ii) The member has obtained the prior approval of the Board of Directors. The prohibition against crossbreeding contained in this clause shall not apply to guide and working dogs. 12/08 I know that some other states don't have the exemption for working dogs. ETA I don't imagine the intent of the exemption for working dogs meant working breeds kept as suburban pets. yes this is what i said, a registered dog cannot be cross bred but a registered breeder can cross breed as many dogs as they like as long as they are unregistered dogs. they only way to stop this would be to say no registered breeder can cross breed any dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkycat Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 just tell them all pups are desexed before leaving for their new homes. That will get rid of the bums that want to breed. Yes I might start saying that, Nekhbet. Good idea. ;) At least you do get rid of the real idiots. And I know we have to trust some people, Wuffles, but some people just ooze authenticity and enthusiasm and you know in your heart they are the right home for a pup. ;) It's just the frustration that gets to me. I know we shouldn't run other people down to make ourselves look good (one of my husband's favourite sayings) but it is just heartbreaking that there are so many uneducated people out there and they are allowed/enabled to buy puppies from any dodgy old breeder/pet shop. I do try to keep emotion out of my "education" talks....... I try to talk up the positives of buying a pup from a reputable breeder, but for yobbos like this there just isn't any justification for the ridiculous prices we apparently charge. :rolleyes: While I understand your concern I don't think that comments like these help improve the reputation of breeders - in fact it sounds like you are just confirming the "all reputable breeders are elitist, money-hungry snobs". Surely polite positive education is the answer rather than insults - after all this is a public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 In their defence, they probably thought they'd done the right thing as regards their last pup, by buying an ANKC registered pup, even if it was from a petstore. Many people think that if a breeder is ANKC registered, they must be ethical and reputable.These people are in need of a little education, but I'm personally much more disturbed at the DogsNSW breeder who sold their pups via a petstore - if they're a registered breeder, surely they should know better. I agree, as bizarre as it seems to most of us, the average Joe has no idea where or how to get a PB puppy, let alone health testing and everything else. You only need to read the topic of the blue Stafford pup in the puppy section to understand how the average person thinks. They read the TP, go to Pet Shops or google. I would happily sell those people a 'desexed' mate for their dog, when people know better, they do better. It's not like the ANKC is advertising where and how you purchase a PB puppy. If you're not an ANKC member or somehow in the know how would you know where to buy a good PB puppy. :rolleyes: I think our well spent ANKC fees should go on a TV ad spot on how to buy a purebred puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyla Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 my understanding is that the ankc allows it's registered breeders to cross breed dogs as long as the dogs they are using aren't ankc registered dogs.again, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong about this I think it is different state to state. In DogsNSW code of ethivs states 5. A Member shall not knowingly permit any of that Member's pure bred dogs to be matedto a dog of a different breed, to a cross-bred dog, or to any unregistered dog of the same breed or to a dog not on the Main Register unless:- i) such mating is for the health, welfare and/or the development of a breed or an aspect thereof, and ii) The member has obtained the prior approval of the Board of Directors. The prohibition against crossbreeding contained in this clause shall not apply to guide and working dogs. 12/08 I know that some other states don't have the exemption for working dogs. ETA I don't imagine the intent of the exemption for working dogs meant working breeds kept as suburban pets. yes this is what i said, a registered dog cannot be cross bred but a registered breeder can cross breed as many dogs as they like as long as they are unregistered dogs. they only way to stop this would be to say no registered breeder can cross breed any dog I thought that as a registered breeder you could only breed purebred appropriately papered dogs fit to be bred from. I did not think reg breeders could also have a sideline business in mutts??? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 If someone is a new kid and hasnt thought through the whole pet shop thing you can understand why it happens. The codes of conduct tell them they can sell to pet shops as long as they are PIAA registered. In fact when it first came in for Dogs NSW they actively promoted breeders being able to now sell to these pet shops. There were full page ads in the Canine journals for them. Even more recently there have been ads for Transpet which is a PIAA registered agent for purchasing purebred pups for export to an over seas pet shop.Many people see the fact they export their puppies as something to be very proud of - why wouldnt they any other product you can get an export market for is seen as a sign of success. The CCs make hundreds of thousands of dollars every year from export certificates given out for pet shop puppies. Some who sell to pet shops are well known and well regarded in the dog world. Trade laws in Australia are federal and they always win out over any others - they ensure that regardless of where you live you have equitability at law. If federal law allowed you to sell slaves in one state in this country you couldnt stop any other from selling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 my understanding is that the ankc allows it's registered breeders to cross breed dogs as long as the dogs they are using aren't ankc registered dogs.again, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong about this I think it is different state to state. In DogsNSW code of ethivs states 5. A Member shall not knowingly permit any of that Member's pure bred dogs to be matedto a dog of a different breed, to a cross-bred dog, or to any unregistered dog of the same breed or to a dog not on the Main Register unless:- i) such mating is for the health, welfare and/or the development of a breed or an aspect thereof, and ii) The member has obtained the prior approval of the Board of Directors. The prohibition against crossbreeding contained in this clause shall not apply to guide and working dogs. 12/08 I know that some other states don't have the exemption for working dogs. ETA I don't imagine the intent of the exemption for working dogs meant working breeds kept as suburban pets. yes this is what i said, a registered dog cannot be cross bred but a registered breeder can cross breed as many dogs as they like as long as they are unregistered dogs. they only way to stop this would be to say no registered breeder can cross breed any dog I thought that as a registered breeder you could only breed purebred appropriately papered dogs fit to be bred from. I did not think reg breeders could also have a sideline business in mutts??? :rolleyes: They sure can and there are many examples including one who was raided and had over 300 dogs on her property on RSPCA rescue show breeding purebred and cross bred and still has her prefix. At least one advertises on dogz and breed purebred and is very vocal about how and why she also breeds cross breds. Think it through even if you could stop a registered breeder form breeding lots of dogs and cross bred dogs whats stopping them saying their partner does the other bit etc anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyla Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 my understanding is that the ankc allows it's registered breeders to cross breed dogs as long as the dogs they are using aren't ankc registered dogs.again, i am happy to be corrected if i am wrong about this I think it is different state to state. In DogsNSW code of ethivs states 5. A Member shall not knowingly permit any of that Member's pure bred dogs to be matedto a dog of a different breed, to a cross-bred dog, or to any unregistered dog of the same breed or to a dog not on the Main Register unless:- i) such mating is for the health, welfare and/or the development of a breed or an aspect thereof, and ii) The member has obtained the prior approval of the Board of Directors. The prohibition against crossbreeding contained in this clause shall not apply to guide and working dogs. 12/08 I know that some other states don't have the exemption for working dogs. ETA I don't imagine the intent of the exemption for working dogs meant working breeds kept as suburban pets. yes this is what i said, a registered dog cannot be cross bred but a registered breeder can cross breed as many dogs as they like as long as they are unregistered dogs. they only way to stop this would be to say no registered breeder can cross breed any dog I thought that as a registered breeder you could only breed purebred appropriately papered dogs fit to be bred from. I did not think reg breeders could also have a sideline business in mutts??? :rolleyes: They sure can and there are many examples including one who was raided and had over 300 dogs on her property on RSPCA rescue show breeding purebred and cross bred and still has her prefix. At least one advertises on dogz and breed purebred and is very vocal about how and why she also breeds cross breds. Think it through even if you could stop a registered breeder form breeding lots of dogs and cross bred dogs whats stopping them saying their partner does the other bit etc anyway? Good point Steve. ;) 300 dogs!! My neighbour bought their "cavoodle " from a local puppy farm. They had 700, yes, 700 dogs. They said the acreage was pristine, which greatly impressed them...I bet they didn't see behind the scenes. ;) It is difficult to say things to certain people. You come across as a snotty nosed know it all if you try to say anything against the well researched designer dog. Although I don't think the dog turned out quite as they imagined. Luck of the draw I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilli_star Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 My neighbour bought their "cavoodle " from a local puppy farm. They had 700, yes, 700 dogs. They said the acreage was pristine, which greatly impressed them...I bet they didn't see behind the scenes. It is difficult to say things to certain people. You come across as a snotty nosed know it all if you try to say anything against the well researched designer dog. Although I don't think the dog turned out quite as they imagined. Luck of the draw I guess. Good lord! :rolleyes: How is that even possible???!!! I don't even want to imagine... ;) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ark Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 just tell them all pups are desexed before leaving for their new homes. That will get rid of the bums that want to breed. Yes I might start saying that, Nekhbet. Good idea. At least you do get rid of the real idiots. And I know we have to trust some people, Wuffles, but some people just ooze authenticity and enthusiasm and you know in your heart they are the right home for a pup. It's just the frustration that gets to me. I know we shouldn't run other people down to make ourselves look good (one of my husband's favourite sayings) but it is just heartbreaking that there are so many uneducated people out there and they are allowed/enabled to buy puppies from any dodgy old breeder/pet shop. I do try to keep emotion out of my "education" talks....... I try to talk up the positives of buying a pup from a reputable breeder, but for yobbos like this there just isn't any justification for the ridiculous prices we apparently charge. While I understand your concern I don't think that comments like these help improve the reputation of breeders - in fact it sounds like you are just confirming the "all reputable breeders are elitist, money-hungry snobs". Surely polite positive education is the answer rather than insults - after all this is a public forum. Hello sparkycat, Thank you for your input, and I do agree that polite positive education is the way to go. I have calmed down and sent the person involved a rational explanation of my concerns, letting them know just how much my pups mean to me and offering them some things to consider when looking for their next pup. I also took Nekhbet's advice and advised them that my puppies would be desexed before leaving me. I am aware (and said this to the person) that "show breeders" still need pet puppy homes, and we like to guarantee our pet-puppy buyers the very best quality pups in terms of health and temperament. And that our puppies come with lifetime backup. Hopefully they will at least be a bit wiser in their search for a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esky the husky Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Hey at least these people were honest with you. Better that than telling you everything you wanted to hear, and then using one of your pups for breeding anyway. Hopefully you have enlightened them and they think carefully about their next pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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