8 Month Old Bully

[B-Q]

I need some advice on an issue that is cropping up with Quinn.

I'm finding her turning into a bit of a bully, particularily around Mac (my sisters 5 year old dog) and particularily around food.

When I say bullying I mean hard stares, posturing and mouthing her legs.

Quinn is fed in her crate, she has to sit and wait while I put the food in, close the door and then watch me till she gets the okay.

But if I have food in my hand and we pass Mac she'll bully Mac on the way past.

Tonight she did it in the loungeroom over a plate of OUR bread we had on the ground, usually Mac just steps aside and ignores her, today she cowered into the ground. She tried to come up and do the same hard stare at Buster and he completley ignored her, doesn't look uncomrfotable or anything, but Buster is pretty sure of himself.

I've found Quinn will also rush over and give Mac a hard time if we are telling Mac off for something. Something as simple as "Mac, out!" will bring Quinn in.

I've also noticed then sometimes when we go to bed at night, if she gets up first she'll block Buster from getting up and he won't get up till I kick her off.

I don't know how to approach this. If I should send her to a mat everytime, tell her off or am I worrying over her just sorting out where she sits in the order of things. Should I just enforce tough NILIF for a while and see how things go? Should I get professional help at this point?

Mac is incredibly submissive, she's happy for anyone else to be the boss. My mothers dog (PTS 3 months ago for aggression issues) started beating her up at about 12 months old despite her never giving him a reason to and if the same stuff starts happening again I don't know what I'll do. I've been trying to do everything right to raise her well and I don't know how to deal with this. She's very shy in so many aspects but she's being a pretty arrogant 8 month old.

Edited January 19, 2011 by busterlove

[Nekhbet]

you need to get professional help ASAP with her. What she is doing is not really healthy especially for a dog of 8 months of age. My bitch is a bit of a bully the way your quinn is but she's not as bad as she used to be. If Quinn starts telling Mac off when you do get to her before she tells him off. If she makes a move towards him when you chastised just 'AHH, QUINN NO' and move her away. Its not her job. She's top dog in that house for sure, dont mistake some obedience tricks for rewards as you being her leader.

[Ons]

teenage years, pack order changed recently, get some professional help

My Ons was like that with my Tilly who was very submissive and I sought some help from K9Pro. He is a wonderful dog now with only the occassional reminder to mind his manners.

and keep doing the NILIF, you need to make sure that Quinn knows that you are head of the pack and also Triangle of Temptation. by strengthening my leadership Onslow learnt quickly.

[corvus]

Being a "leader" is simply training your dog to defer to you. That IS "obedience tricks for rewards". And that is not just my opinion; it comes from the literature. It's just a matter of fluency. For some dogs, if there's a void in direction they will fill it with something that will probably be proactive and obnoxious. I live with a dog like this, and I've learnt to not leave direction voids where there's a chance he'll start doing things I'm not keen on. If I don't even give him a chance to do something bratty then there is no problem. The times he's got ahead of me it's just a matter of taking a few steps back, making sure he can't practice the behaviour, and cueing and rewarding an incompatible behaviour. A dog that is acting to restore homeostasis in themselves is not necessarily the "leader" of the household just because interacting with the human doesn't do a thing to restore that homeostasis. Believe it or not, "obedience tricks for rewards" can be just the thing for restoring homeostasis. Training in my house is supposed to be a fun and safe thing. As long as we're training, the dogs feel in control, safe, and assured of a positive outcome for themselves. Don't underestimate the power of that. It has consequences beyond just the act of doing something for a reward.

As for the OP, I think it's up to you. Maybe there are things that will sort it out, but who knows what exactly? It depends on exactly why she's doing it. I think if in doubt you take steps to MAKE SURE the behaviour can't be practised and work on conditioning an incompatible behaviour. If I were to get a professional for something like this I'd be very careful who I got in. Not many people understand the complexities of relationships between dogs that live together.

[Staff'n'Toller]

There's some damage control you can do in the meantime and that includes:

Feeding them both separately and crated.

Do not leave anything worth guarding where she can get it.

Do your nilif for sure but that is a lifestyle you should already be 'in' if you have multiple dogs.

Crate each for bed at night, and when she comes out she has to sit & stay while you release your boy out of the crate- no bullying.

Step up your obedience with her if you don't have a good level of stay and self control- because that may be all it is- she's heading into adolescence you can start asking more from her.

If mac is not at the same level of obedience/self control then you might need to train for it in your presence.

But do get some advice on it for sure. :D

There are lots of trainers who have experience with multi-dog households because they live in them.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[B-Q]

Thanks guys, I'll up the obedience and nilif first because I figure anyone I talk to will tell me to do that first anyway.

Mac is just coming into heat as well which might be messing with her a bit?

When I say I'll do more nilif its not like she has free run as it is, she has to sit and stay before we go out the front door or front gate (mainly for safety), before she eats, before she leaves her crate but she hasn't had to ask to get on the bed before now.

Edited January 20, 2011 by busterlove

[Nekhbet]

Being a "leader" is simply training your dog to defer to you. That IS "obedience tricks for rewards". And that is not just my opinion; it comes from the literature. It's just a matter of fluency. For some dogs, if there's a void in direction they will fill it with something that will probably be proactive and obnoxious. I live with a dog like this, and I've learnt to not leave direction voids where there's a chance he'll start doing things I'm not keen on. If I don't even give him a chance to do something bratty then there is no problem. The times he's got ahead of me it's just a matter of taking a few steps back, making sure he can't practice the behaviour, and cueing and rewarding an incompatible behaviour. A dog that is acting to restore homeostasis in themselves is not necessarily the "leader" of the household just because interacting with the human doesn't do a thing to restore that homeostasis. Believe it or not, "obedience tricks for rewards" can be just the thing for restoring homeostasis. Training in my house is supposed to be a fun and safe thing. As long as we're training, the dogs feel in control, safe, and assured of a positive outcome for themselves. Don't underestimate the power of that. It has consequences beyond just the act of doing something for a reward.

yeah OK. I meant by that the fact that because a dog behaves well in SOME circumstances doesnt mean that the dog is overall accepting leadership. Its exhibiting a conditioned response. Being a strong leader does not mean its tricks for rewards at all. When you lay down the rules and provide consistency you change the dogs demeanour and in fact is a proactive approach to the dog discovering or trying new unwanted behaviours. It is something for a professional to assist with not something to do on your own particularly when multiple dogs are involved. Corvus most of what you describe is part of leadership - a leader simply means teaching and guiding the dog, what do you think I mean? Or is Leader now a dirty word too.

[corvus]

Corvus most of what you describe is part of leadership - a leader simply means teaching and guiding the dog, what do you think I mean? Or is Leader now a dirty word too.

I never know what people mean when they say leadership or being a leader. I honestly think it's one of those abstract ideas that means different things to different people, which is why I don't really use the word or the concept myself. It's not dirty, just ambiguous.

[Nekhbet]

saying leader implies leadership and guidence ... thats why we dont encourage people to use terms like 'domineering control freak' and 'tyranical overlord' when giving them an example to try and grasp when owning or training a dog. It's not totally ambiguous, if I said to you 'OK you're team leader of X group for this exercise' you have a pretty good idea as to where you should be starting with your own actions.

[B-Q]

This is what I'm wondering about. I want her to defer to me first. Like when outside the yard aswell. She can be quiet shy and I'm wondering if she is going through a fear period atm. I've done so much work on her loose leash walking and I can already see her "switching off" when we're out and she's stressed and just forging forward like Buster does.

Its not extreme and I probably only notice it because I'm with her so much but I do notice it.

I don't generally like using terms like "dominance" or "pack leader" but I feel like she doesn't recognise that resources are MINE until I give her the okay. Which is really what I am aiming at.

Does that make sense?

[Nekhbet]

sounds like you need an overall change with the dog. If she's not calm at all in the house or out I say she's not coping with the current situationand how things are handled dynamics wise.

If Mac is in heat there def will be problems. I would separate. If Quinn isnt desexed especially I see why you would be having problems with her but yes I get the feeling she's trying to cope with life how she sees fit.

[corvus]

I don't generally like using terms like "dominance" or "pack leader" but I feel like she doesn't recognise that resources are MINE until I give her the okay. Which is really what I am aiming at.

Why would she? In dogdom, possession is 9/10 of the law. Anything that is outside the immediate sphere of influence of other dogs or people is up for grabs. It's hard work to make it otherwise. I think it takes a very high level of control and consistency. Every time the dog gives in to temptation the system is weakened. Having said that, some dogs are really easy to get along with and generalise these sorts of rules well. Others, not so much.

Personally, I think it's easier to anticipate problems and avoid them before they appear. She can't be a bully if she's in a down or physically separated from the other dog.