Rescue Dog Aggression Problems With Dogs

[breezy]

Hello everyone,

This is my first visit to the forums though I have been reading these forums in anticipation for a week weeks prior to getting our lovely new rescue dog, a Labrador cross (staffy? unknown) Jasper who is 12 - 18 months old.

We picked him up four days ago for his 2 week trial with us. He has settled in with us over the past few days and shown a lovely temperament in the house, he is obedient, house trained, good with his food (no jumping, waits for us to put it down etc), settles in his bed at night, doesn't escape and has been great with any new people coming around.

However, he is very problematic on the lead (very strong), he has snapped our first two leashes in two days! We are starting to try and train him on the leash, and I would really appreciate some advice on what collars are best for such a strong dog, i bought him the harness that pulls around his legs when he pulls, but it seems to have little to no effect, particularly when we get to our second major problem....other dogs.

In his first walk with me (female) he pulled so hard he snapped the leash (i'm off to buy a very strong one now) when he saw another dog across the road. He ran over, jostled it a bit then immediately got aggressive, lunging and (I think) trying to bite. Luckily the lady pulled her dog away immediately and i tried to get him home with a broken leash.

Later on we took him to a dog park and he got extremely out of control, we tried to let the other dogs come to him to see how he would go, but he was barking incessantly, pulling with all his might and trying to get to every dog he saw in every direction. He was very out of control and then snapped the (2nd!) lead and started running toward them all, leaving me panicking. He sniffed some of the little dogs but with the bigger ones he started to lunge and go for them again, initiating the aggressive behavior, I'm not sure if they were male but it seemed to be with particular dogs, particularly larger than him.

We don't know his history, he was in the pound for 4 weeks and with a foster family for two, but immediately I am worried about his socialization with other dogs and what we can do here. He has also recently been desexed (last week before we adopted him) and I dont know if that is impacting his behaviour. His foster carer said he played ok but rough with their Dalmatian and has been to a dog park and been ok, but so far he is showing some very strong behavior and I am unable to hold him, my partner is currently having to control him, but only just managing.

I would really appreciate some advice on how we go about training for the leash and with other dogs, we have both had smaller dogs before (jack russell and cavaliers) but this is our first rescue, and first dog this size. I am extremely worried about taking him out as I am fairly petite and struggle to keep a hold of him....and am very anxious about him fighting with someone else's dog...

thanks in advance!

bri

[Staranais]

However, he is very problematic on the lead (very strong), he has snapped our first two leashes in two days! We are starting to try and train him on the leash, and I would really appreciate some advice on what collars are best for such a strong dog,

Sounds like two problems - firstly the leash simply isn't strong enough for safety, and secondly the dog is lunging hard enough to break it!

My girl breaks regular leads too (if I tie her up & don't tell her to stay she snaps them easily!) - I have a lovely strong leather collar and leash now with strong brass buckles that hold her well. The lead is from ForDogTrainers.com, and the collar is from K9Pro.com.au, but I'm sure people here can recommend other places to get good strong products like that.

As for the possible aggression problem, how about getting a trainer/behavourist in to help you at home? Especially with aggression, it is pretty essential for someone to look at your dog & see how you're interacting with it before giving advice. Where exactly in NSW are you? I think there are behaviourists/trainers in NSW who post here.

The Triangle of Temptation program at the top of the forum gets recommended a lot, & in my experience can be a very helpful way to start a training relationship with your dog, although doesn't replace professional help.

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your new dog!

[poodlefan]

1. Stay out of the dog parks. This sounds like a serious incident waiting to happen and as his carer, you will may be liable for any damage he causes to another dog.

2. Get some professional help - both with training and dealing with his aggression.

3. As you've found out, investing in good quality collars and leads prevents accidents.

If it were my dog, I'd be contacting K9Pro (member here and dog trainer). Not only can he help you with your boy's behaviour, he can sell you good quality gear that won't break.

I note that he's on trial. Unless you're prepared to put time, effort and money into working with this dog to make him more manageable on lead, I'd return him. If he starts in on the wrong dog, there could be a serious fight. Its good that he seems to be mostly noise but you'd need to put some effort in to rehabilitating this dog.

Frankly I'm a little dissapointed that the rescue gave you such a handful. :D The right dog would be bringing you pleasure, not stress and worry.

Oh and bravo to the foster carer for having a dog that should be being quarantined down the dog park NOT! :

Edited January 19, 2011 by poodlefan

[Just Andrea]

I would be speaking to the foster carer/group you got him from first above all else about how they handled him on lead etc.

A lab x is a rather large change for you from a jrt or cavalier........

Just my opinion only: I generally wouldn't readily rehome a large dog who was strong on lead to someone who has only handled small dogs before (an assumption - apologies if you have)........small to large dogs is one thing.......small dog to unruly large dog is another.

Perhaps he was well-behaved on lead with the person you got him from?

Your first call should be the person you adopted the dog from for advice, any issues with the adoption.

[megan_]

i) You can get a good strong leash and collar from k9Pro.com.au for a reasonalbe price. Whatever you do, don't get those plastic clip collars - even my mini schnauzer can break those.

Secondly, I'd get professional help. Sure you should contact the rescue group, but very few that I know actually have a trained professional working for them? If you're in NSW contact Steve from K9Pro. It costs nothing to make a call! Once you've spoken to Steve, you can decide what you want to do next - return the dog (might hurt a little) or commit to putting in some money, time and effort into resolving these issues (might be easy, might be hard, but it would be irresponsible IMO to keep the dog and then not put the effort in).

Thirdly, in the interim, you need to manage the situation conservatively. No walks until you get that strong leash. You can do trick training, throwing the ball in the yard in the interim.

[Ons]

1. Stay out of the dog parks. This sounds like a serious incident waiting to happen and as his carer, you will may be liable for any damage he causes to another dog.

2. Get some professional help - both with training and dealing with his aggression.

3. As you've found out, investing in good quality collars and leads prevents accidents.

If it were my dog, I'd be contacting K9Pro (member here and dog trainer). Not only can he help you with your boy's behaviour, he can sell you good quality gear that won't break.

I note that he's on trial. Unless you're prepared to put time, effort and money into working with this dog to make him more manageable on lead, I'd return him. If he starts in on the wrong dog, there could be a serious fight. Its good that he seems to be mostly noise but you'd need to put some effort in to rehabilitating this dog.

Frankly I'm a little dissapointed that the rescue gave you such a handful. :D The right dog would be bringing you pleasure, not stress and worry.

Oh and bravo to the foster carer for having a dog that should be being quarantined down the dog park NOT! :

I agree with all of the above. and another one who thinks K9Pro is wonderful (but I haven't tried any other behaviouralists) at the moment he is a walking disaster just waiting to happen. He may be trainable and you will need to seek professional help, it will be a long expensive road that will take an enormous amount of time, if you are willing to do that go for it, it could be a very rewarding experience, if not do not feel ashamed, return the dog to the rescue and see if there is another dog that may suit you more, different dogs fit in with different people. I had little dogs and now have golden retreivers and coolies so don't let going from small dogs to big dogs put you off.

all the very best of luck

[persephone]

How disappointing- and dangerous!!

There are so many questions.... was he ever walked by the person from whom you got him ?Was he temperamentally assessed as being suitable to rehome?

I agree with

getting professional help ASAP

NO walks outside your yard .. instead do LOTS of short obedience/trick training sessions in the yard/house :D Make sure he has a treat ball/soccer balls, etc to keep him busy

Buy good quality collar/lead ,especially for large dogs... not the ornamental stuff sold everywhere!

Keep us posted!

[megan_]

and if you decide to return him. don't let anyone try to guilt you into keeping him. IMO, the mark of a good rescuer or breeder is one that will take back the dog when things don't work out.

[BMAK]

Contact your rescue asap explain to them your story also ring your foster carer as every question imaginable about his behaviour.

If he isn't the dog you wanted, i would send him back to the rescue after your trial as you won't be happy.

Find a more suitable breed or temperment in another rescue dog.

And unless you are going to make sure you can get proffessional help i wouldn't accept the dog as it will be 14 years or more of owning this dog and his behaviour.

You may be already attached but it not fair to you or the dog if he is always going to be a bit hairy fairy about other dogs and you cannot even walk being little (i don't mean to sound rude at all) if he is comming from a rescue group they should take him back no problems not saying he can't be rehabilitated it will take a lot of time money and patience.

[skip]

Welcome to the forum

Not good that you are having trouble with your dog but at least you can get some advice. I can't help training wise because he sounds like more dog than I have handled. He looks a lovely boy thou.

I suggest a rescue dog to people who ask me ( I have one rescue dog people comment on a lot) as I like that if there is a problem straight away you have a option to return the dog if needed. Not ideal of course but in your case it would be worth considering. In your description of the dog at home sounds like there are some really good things going for him too.

My rescue dog had seperation anxiety which I was told about but I didn't know much about it. Told I must have two dogs which I was going to do anyway. I loved this dog and his type, basically he was perfect every other way. First day I had to work and I found out all about Seperation anxiety. WoW I consulted with a behaviourist and worked out a plan of attack. All good (mostly ) now.

But I will confess that straight after I got the first dog I rang the rescue and I looked at another dog. Rushed into this and without going into details I knew straight away that I didn't like this second dog. I didn't think I could bond with her or give her the life she deserved as it wasn't the dog for me. I felt so guilty returning her and I was pressured to keep her. I was told the foster carer had already gotten another dog and wouldn't want her back now. I did call the same day to tell the rescue that there was a problem. The rescue lady has forgiven me now. I understand better now how frustrating recue must be.

So despite feeling like a uncaring self centred bad dog owner , she was returned and hopefull re-homed to somebody who appreciated her. But I don't regret making this decision. I did find another dog soon after, all happy and 6 years on will look at another rescue for my third agility dog.

Sorry for the long story. But don't feel too bad if you decide to return the boy. If you really like him consult with a GOOD behaviourist and get their advice on how suitable the dog is for you. Maybe that way even if you return the dog ,the foster carer may also get some advice for the dog?

Good luck, let us know what happens?

[Nekhbet]

Personally I would send him back. It's not fair that groups send out dogs like this, it is their responsibility to make him safe for the community NOT for you to now fork out for professional fees particularly if he's the type that lunges and grabs at other dogs.

[Kavik]

I would also send him back. I have one dog aggressive dog and it is hard work and stressful. I would not wish the experience on anyone.

[sas]

As you're in the 2 week trial period I would return the dog to the rescue.

I have a dog aggressive dog and it's not a fun thing to have, you're forever on your toes - ditto to what Kavik said.

My personal opinon is that dog aggressive dogs that come through rescue shouldn't be re-homed, they should either recieve appropriate behaviour modification with the rescue or put to sleep as aggressive dogs aren't cured, they are managed and not everyone has the skills to manage an aggressive dog nor wants to.

[breezy]

HI again everyone,

Firstly, I can't thank you enough for your advice and replies, it's really helped me to read about other people's stories and experiences.

A little update on Jasper, yesterday I bought a halti collar to go over his nose and a very (!) strong short chain lead. I spoke with his rescue lady regarding his behavior and she did confirm he was behavior tested at the pound, otherwise she never would have taken him on. He was (apparently) ok with dogs there at the pound and ok with his foster carers dog & cat also (sat there licking the cat apparently!!). I will however, contact his foster carer today to see if I can get a little more info on this and how "OK" he was.

Whilst we are committed to training and if things work out will want to take him to further obedience classes, I totally agree that if he is aggressive with other dogs we will seriously reconsider after our 2 weeks with him. It is a risk we can't take and we want to be able to take him to parks off the lead (eventually) and our dog beach without concern!

So last night we took him for a walk with his new collar and I was amazed, it worked almost immediately. In fact he hardly tried to get it off like we were told they usually do. He is good listening to us and our commands. We stopped and said "stop" loudly every time he pulled hard, and he seemed to pick it up. We rewarded him with treats and hugs when he walked well.

On our walk we came across a group of about 5 labradors who we off leads. He immediately started pulling and getting excited and we pulled him back and said stop. Every time we say stop he stops and sits down, so he seems to get that now, and the strap on his nose seems to be far more effective than the one that went around his legs. After he stopped pulling we let him walk over to the other dogs, but stopped everytime he pulled hard. Their owners obviously knew each other and said oh let him play, so i walked over and explained we just got him and we arent sure yet how he is around other dogs. They said just let him sniff etc.

Anyway he and the group of them started to sniff and play around (we kept him on the leash the whole time) and he seemed fine, he didnt bark or lunge or be aggressive at all, which was a relief. It's baby steps though and we will take him out every day to see if this is consistent behaviour or a one off! I would like to see how he is around all types of dogs. I wonder if our first outing to the dog beach (where he was aggressive) was all too much for a dog that is not used to other dogs around, nor us or his new environment?

I took him out on my own this morning (after a practise in the backyard on the lead) and he was so much better. I had control of him the whole time, and the short chain lead gave me so much more control of him. He responded well to "stop" when he was pulling. We did see a couple of labs in the distance and he pulled again like mad, I made him stop and he did, he wanted to go and say hello but being on my own I didnt let him this morning. After making him stop for awhile and sit there I then pulled him off in the direction home (away from the dogs) and he reluctantly came, but was ok.

So we will see how this progresses over the next few days. Our rescue lady has offered to come out next week and see how he is also/do some training, so we will take her up on that. If the aggression continues or comes up even occasionally we will make our decision. However, i am very glad we have got the walking under control in just one day, it gives me hope that we can train him and we are certainly willing to do this. He is just such a doll around the house, obeys everything and has this amazingly placid/easygoing personality, so it will be interesting to see how he goes with the dog issue. We also introduced him to the little kids next door and he was fine, sat there (on the lead) and let them come up and pat and didnt jump etc.

I'll update again in the next day or two. I get the feeling he hasn't been walked much (if at all) & not socialized either. If we go past the 2 weeks and all is well, I will definitely consult a behaviorist as mentioned. We are in Sydney city.

Thanks for your help again, I'm so appreciative.

[poodlefan]

Breezy, I think you'd be far better off with a decent leather lead than a chain one. Chain is difficult to control in terms of shortening and lengthening the lead and is heavy - making it difficult to signal to the dog when the lead is loose.

If you want to persist with a halti I highly recommend you get some professional lessons in how to use it - a dog pulling hard on one (or God forbid lunging) can potentially do itself some spinal damage. Obedience training sounds like a very good idea for this dog.

Perhaps the difference in his behaviour at the beach and with the Labs was because you controlled the greeting. Haltis also tend to suppress some dog behaviour. I'd not be concluding that he's going to be fine offlead with dogs but it appears you aren't.

He sounds very much to me like a dog that's missed out on socialisation and training. Socialising him now won't make up for what he missed out on as a pup but training will go a long way to helping you manage him.

Edited January 19, 2011 by poodlefan

[persephone]

A good update.. but please note poodlefan's post. A chain leash can also do YOU damage if the dog pulls/whips around.

Now you have found out how effective a halti is at suppressing behaviour in teh initial stages ( this may change as the dog gets used to teh feeling!!) please do get a professional trainer to show you how to walk/control your dog...

[breezy]

Breezy, I think you'd be far better off with a decent leather lead than a chain one. Chain is difficult to control in terms of shortening and lengthening the lead and is heavy - making it difficult to signal to the dog when the lead is loose.

If you want to persist with a halti I highly recommend you get some professional lessons in how to use it - a dog pulling hard on one (or God forbid lunging) can potentially do itself some spinal damage. Obedience training sounds like a very good idea for this dog.

Perhaps the difference in his behaviour at the beach and with the Labs was because you controlled the greeting. Haltis also tend to suppress some dog behaviour. I'd not be concluding that he's going to be fine offlead with dogs but it appears you aren't.

He sounds very much to me like a dog that's missed out on socialisation and training. Socialising him now won't make up for what he missed out on as a pup but training will go a long way to helping you manage him.

thanks poodle fan! I have just spoken to the Manly Kennel & Dog training club and we can attend this weekend so will likely do that and see how he goes. We definitely are going to take a softly softly approach with other dogs and will not assume he is going to be fine until we've had some professional advice and socialization training. The trainer lady and some other people have said because of his placid personality and obedience in the home he should be trainable when it comes to other dogs and the correct social behaviour, I truly hope they are right as we already love him & are bonding well.

Thanks for the advice about the lead, the training lady also recommended buying their training lead for classes. I think you are right about controlling the greeting last night, there was less stimulation than the beach and he was already far more in control because of the halti. I know some people dont like these but so far it has been far more effective than the one around his leg, probably because of his massive strength when he pulls. I will make sure we get some advice on using it on the weekend too.

[Red Fox]

Just my 2 cents worth and others may not agree but....

Firstly - Get your dog OFF the halti. If he is pulling into it or you are pulling on it then there's a very real chance of doing some spinal damage.

Secondly - you have had this dog for 4 or 5 days. If it was me I'd be working on establishing some pack structure, bonding with the dog and basic training at home. There's plently of time for dog parks and walks later on down the track. The dog is in a new home, everything has been turned upside down for him and he needs time to settle in and get used to things. He may or may not be DA, you really need to get someone more knowledgable in to assess him (a good trainer or behaviourist - definitely give Steve Courtney/K9 Pro a call).

Thirdly - This dog could be a lot of work. If he is indeed DA and/or undersocialised he will cost you a lot of time and possibly a lot of money to retrain and manage. If you're not willing to take that on then return him. Owning a dog with "problems" is not fun...

Re pulling on the leash, well most (if not all) dogs can be trained out of that if you're willing to put in the work so that's not the end of the world

I also wouldn't be taking a dog that is reactive to an obedience club at this stage, it may be way too much for him to cope with.

I may also get flamed for saying this but I'm going to say it anyway, in the nicest possible way: Keep your dog out of the dog park and on a good strong leash.

I can tell you now that if a dog of any size broke it's leash and came barrelling towards mine acting aggressively I'd have no problem putting the boot in and potentially breaking a rib or two. Sorry, but my loyalties lie with MY dog and there will be many other owners who will feel the same. There's also the issue of a potential dog fight. Not nice for anyone Taking your dog to a dog park right now is simply asking for trouble.

Some links that might help you if you decide to keep this dog;

Leerburg, free e-book on establishing pack structure with an adult dog: http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf

Good strong leather leashes: http://www.k9pro.com.au/categories/Leashes...er-Leash-Range/ Your dog wont be able to break one of these, they are worth their weight in gold. Keep in mind too that the clip is probably the weakest part of most leashes so don't presume that your dog wont be able to break a chain leash.

Have a read of this article too, Leash breakage; http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=87

Collars: http://www.k9pro.com.au/categories/Dog-Collars/

You might also find this interesting; http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=31 (Steve's article on head collars).

Hope that helps.

*EFS

Edited January 20, 2011 by SecretKei

[Diesel's Mate]

Firstly - Get your dog OFF the halti. If he is pulling into it or you are pulling on it then there's a very real chance of doing some spinal damage.

Re pulling on the leash, well most (if not all) dogs can be trained out of that if you're willing to put in the work so that's not the end of the world

I also wouldn't be taking a dog that is reactive to an obedience club at this stage, it may be way too much for him to cope with.

I may also get flamed for saying this but I'm going to say it anyway, in the nicest possible way: Keep your dog out of the dog park and on a good strong leash.

I AGREE ........my dog agressive dog and I would have a tug of war with a halti on (head thrashing and all) apparently it freaked him out that it restriced his options (of walking away etc) and i really upset me that he was in such a state.

I was advised to 'throw away' the halti and get a longer lead so I could give him 'options' I was also advised to turn around and walk away from another dog showing my boy that I would 'keep him safe'. I must say, ever since I have done that, he looks at me when ever a dog approaches, he walks PERFECTLY on a loose lead and when we walk past a dog now I just give him all of the lead (still holding the end of course) and he takes as much space as he needs avoid the offending dog - WITHOUT pulling, or taking notice of the other dog.

To get him to be so fantastic on the lead I took DAILY walks near very single barking dog in the neighbourhood and turned around the SECOND the other dog started barking/snarling/etc. I also remained really calm and patent and after about 2 or 3 months he is incredible. Still a work in progress because we have a few slip ups (and it is hard to avoid an off leash dog storming us at the beach - which we have only been able to attend recently)

I am not saying this will work for you, but it is another view.

Edited to say: My dog is a rescue dog, we got him at about 3 months old and he is now 6 years old.....something traumatised him as a pup and we work constantly and consistently with him so he can over come his issues and be a really happy content dog, which he seems to be now and we want him to be for the rest of his time.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Diesel's Mate

[Clyde]

Get rid of the Halti and try one of these: http://www.kumalongshop.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=28

They are based in Warriewood and will fit it for you, they're amazing!