Doggie Dementia/ccd?

[westiemum]

:p

You went OUT. I had to stay OUTSIDE! I need something to eat! laugh.gif rolleyes.gif

That's Mac all over - but I get the brown, sad-eyed accusing look as well! Mac always needs something to eat, poor starved boy that he is!!

BTW what does Grumpy's puffiness look like? Is it possibly a medication side-effect? Just a thought.

[Boronia]

Hi Boronia,

Good to hear from you and Penny.

Hope you don't mind me asking but are you noticing any early behaviour changes? If so, don't delay and get thyself and thy westie to a vet familiar with CCD/doggie dementia . The information I've looked at suggests strongly that catching it early and starting a treatment regime early and not assuming that its part of normal aging (its not) can make a world of difference. Apparently many people leave it until the incontinence stage and by then its usually too late to get much improvement.

The signs with Mac are fairly subtle still at this stage and easy to overlook - the intermittent symptoms started late last year (funny purposeless growling mainly) and I wrongly assumed he was just becoming a grumpy westie. Its only been in the last couple of weeks I put the whole thing together and headed off to the vet - and boy am I glad I did. So keep a close eye on her - normal aging is simply slowing down a bit with alertness and interest in life etc still present. In my case occasional purposeless growling and barking and occasional vacant staring where he appeared to not recognise me or the youngest boy westie were not normal signs of aging.

Hope that helps and ditto - please let us know how Penny gets on.

As we all become more aware of this I think we are all going to need all the support and information we can get.

Hi Westiemum,

keep us updated on Mac's progress...Penny is 12 now and I have a feeling that she will go gaga in the next year or so as she had a pretty tough life up until Moira saved her from a dirty stinkin' BYB

I will keep an eye on Pen Westiemum... so far she is much the same as when I bought her, though I do notice she growls at Daisy if Daisy butts into Pen's space...this may just be a bitch-thing so I keep a really careful eye on them in case it escalates into something more serious...I should have bought another male Westie instead of Daisy, but when I went round to see her, to perhaps buy her, I just had to get her out of there, so handed over my $200 and away I went

Next time I take them to the vet I'll ask him to check.

[westiemum]

Good to hear Boronia. That sounds like a purposeful bitch growl to me - and that's the important thing here - Macs growling was aimless and his barking was at nothing. But still wise to keep an eye on it.

Apparently 60% of dogs over 10 show at least one sign of CCD. So it appears to me that a lot of owners are missing signs (or putting them down to normal aging which its not) which can be contained if the dog is managed properly and early, instead of becoming incapacitated earlier than needs be.

Hi Boronia,

Good to hear from you and Penny.

Hope you don't mind me asking but are you noticing any early behaviour changes? If so, don't delay and get thyself and thy westie to a vet familiar with CCD/doggie dementia . The information I've looked at suggests strongly that catching it early and starting a treatment regime early and not assuming that its part of normal aging (its not) can make a world of difference. Apparently many people leave it until the incontinence stage and by then its usually too late to get much improvement.

The signs with Mac are fairly subtle still at this stage and easy to overlook - the intermittent symptoms started late last year (funny purposeless growling mainly) and I wrongly assumed he was just becoming a grumpy westie. Its only been in the last couple of weeks I put the whole thing together and headed off to the vet - and boy am I glad I did. So keep a close eye on her - normal aging is simply slowing down a bit with alertness and interest in life etc still present. In my case occasional purposeless growling and barking and occasional vacant staring where he appeared to not recognise me or the youngest boy westie were not normal signs of aging.

Hope that helps and ditto - please let us know how Penny gets on.

As we all become more aware of this I think we are all going to need all the support and information we can get.

Hi Westiemum,

keep us updated on Mac's progress...Penny is 12 now and I have a feeling that she will go gaga in the next year or so as she had a pretty tough life up until Moira saved her from a dirty stinkin' BYB

I will keep an eye on Pen Westiemum... so far she is much the same as when I bought her, though I do notice she growls at Daisy if Daisy butts into Pen's space...this may just be a bitch-thing so I keep a really careful eye on them in case it escalates into something more serious...I should have bought another male Westie instead of Daisy, but when I went round to see her, to perhaps buy her, I just had to get her out of there, so handed over my $200 and away I went

Next time I take them to the vet I'll ask him to check.

[Sheridan]

:D

You went OUT. I had to stay OUTSIDE! I need something to eat! laugh.gif rolleyes.gif

That's Mac all over - but I get the brown, sad-eyed accusing look as well! Mac always needs something to eat, poor starved boy that he is!!

BTW what does Grumpy's puffiness look like? Is it possibly a medication side-effect? Just a thought.

He's not on medication. What I call puffyiness, it's really heavy panting.

[westiemum]

Corvus thanks for the tip to contact deerhound owner. She's terrific and has been really helpful.

You could PM deerhoundowner. She's been researching canine dementia for the last 3 years. She is a wealth of knowledge on the topic.

[westiemum]

Hi All,

Resurrecting this thread with an update.

I'm thrilled that Mac is continuing to do really well - paws crossed it continues.

He's been on the Vivitonin for just shy of two months (half a tab twice a day at least 30 minutes beofre food - and yes I've been religious about the 30 minutes). He's been on the Hills B/D for a bit longer (half a cup twice a day and some additional veggies at night). And back earlier this month I added a vitamin supplement to his meals.

I also have been carting him around with me as much as possible.

And I haven't heard a prolonged aimless growling and/or barking session since 25 February. Two momentary growls only where its hard to tell how purposeful they were and he seemed a bit vague on 17 March only.

I'm not sure what component of this regime is working - but I'll keep it up until it becomes obvious I need to change again.

How are you going? I'd be really interested to hear your progress.

Best,

Westiemum and Mac.

[Sheridan]

I've ordered some Hills B/D from the vet but I understand there were some supply issues so it may not have come in yet. Due to the Grump's idiosyncratic response to medication, I've not gone back down the Vivitonin route but he seems just as cunning as he ever was. His latest is insisting that I go to bed when he wants to go. He's always done this somewhat but it's nearly every night now. I wonder if it's because it's getting darker earlier? He's previously got a bit confused about the beginning and end of daylight savings. In a couple of weeks I'll be getting the patio dog door so he can come and go as he pleases - especially because we've gone to bed earlier over the past few nights and around 2.30, he's decided he needs to get up and do a wee. Broken sleep makes me grumpy!

[westiemum]

Hi Sheridan,

Yep there have been some supply probs with the Hills B/D - but do persevere - I suspect for Mac its working well. Yes doggie doors are a necessity for these doggies I think.

Yep Grumpy sounds very cunning - are you sure he's not just a grumpy cunning old boy??!!

[Boronia]

Hi sheridan, perhaps try these three Hill BD suppliers, they may have some in stock

http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/HPDCB-D#HP...nine+b+d+7+98kg

http://www.thevetshed.com.au/product_info....nine+B+D+7+98kg

http://www.aussiepet.com.au/hills-prescrip...Diet+Canine+b+d

I have bought stuff from the first two suppliers and they are pretty good to deal with but I have not bought anything from Aussie pet

It's expensive compared with home-made barf isn't it, but if it does the job it is well worth it I reckon.

I'm glad your little Mac is doing ok Westiemum, I hate it when they get older, it means we will have less time to spend with them...bit of a bugger really.

[Sheridan]

Hi Sheridan,

Yep there have been some supply probs with the Hills B/D - but do persevere - I suspect for Mac its working well. Yes doggie doors are a necessity for these doggies I think.

Yep Grumpy sounds very cunning - are you sure he's not just a grumpy cunning old boy??!!

I'm convinced he's a grumpy cunning old boy!

I can see where his mind's not quite there sometimes, like where I might be in one room and he assumes I'm in another. When he can't find me in the room he's assumed I'm in, he just stands there confused and it takes me touching him for him to work it out. I think he's also starting to be a bit more clingy of late.

Hi sheridan, perhaps try these three Hill BD suppliers, they may have some in stock

http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/HPDCB-D#HP...nine+b+d+7+98kg

http://www.thevetshed.com.au/product_info....nine+B+D+7+98kg

http://www.aussiepet.com.au/hills-prescrip...Diet+Canine+b+d

I have bought stuff from the first two suppliers and they are pretty good to deal with but I have not bought anything from Aussie pet

It's expensive compared with home-made barf isn't it, but if it does the job it is well worth it I reckon.

I'm glad your little Mac is doing ok Westiemum, I hate it when they get older, it means we will have less time to spend with them...bit of a bugger really.

Thanks, very much. I'll check those out if the vet doesn't get some in.

[westiemum]

Hi Sheridan and Grumpy,

Here in Adelaide the vets are marginally cheaper by the time you add freight to the order from the online pet stores - its such a big bag. So I usuallly buy from my vet - don't mind giving him the business when the price difference is so marginal and they look after us so well.

We had an episode of the aimless barking and growling last weekend - first time in a month - but it was shorter (3 minutes) and hasn't re-occurred.

I know what you mean about 'him not being there' - Mac does the same and I have to touch him to bring him back. Hope Grumpy is doing OK though.

Hi Sheridan,

Yep there have been some supply probs with the Hills B/D - but do persevere - I suspect for Mac its working well. Yes doggie doors are a necessity for these doggies I think.

Yep Grumpy sounds very cunning - are you sure he's not just a grumpy cunning old boy??!!

I'm convinced he's a grumpy cunning old boy!

I can see where his mind's not quite there sometimes, like where I might be in one room and he assumes I'm in another. When he can't find me in the room he's assumed I'm in, he just stands there confused and it takes me touching him for him to work it out. I think he's also starting to be a bit more clingy of late.

Hi sheridan, perhaps try these three Hill BD suppliers, they may have some in stock

http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/HPDCB-D#HP...nine+b+d+7+98kg

http://www.thevetshed.com.au/product_info....nine+B+D+7+98kg

http://www.aussiepet.com.au/hills-prescrip...Diet+Canine+b+d

I have bought stuff from the first two suppliers and they are pretty good to deal with but I have not bought anything from Aussie pet

It's expensive compared with home-made barf isn't it, but if it does the job it is well worth it I reckon.

I'm glad your little Mac is doing ok Westiemum, I hate it when they get older, it means we will have less time to spend with them...bit of a bugger really.

Thanks, very much. I'll check those out if the vet doesn't get some in.

Edited March 30, 2011 by westiemum

[Sheridan]

Hi Sheridan and Grumpy,

Here in Adelaide the vets are marginally cheaper by the time you add freight to the order from the online pet stores - its such a big bag. So I usuallly buy from my vet - don't mind giving him the business when the price difference is so marginal and they look after us so well.

We had an episode of the aimless barking and growling last weekend - first time in a month - but it was shorter (3 minutes) and hasn't re-occurred.

I know what you mean about 'him not being there' - Mac does the same and I have to touch him to bring him back. Hope Grumpy is doing OK though.

Thankfully, Grumpy only barks when he's annoyed at something or when Miss Mini gets him going. He's doing very well, despite his 'mental health' issues. He only has to look at Mini to get her off the couch (he's such an in charge man!) and he still belts around the backyard. It will be interesting to see, though, how he copes with the clocks going back this weekend. He didn't cope well last year and he's wanting to go to bed earlier and earlier now it's getting dark sooner. Mini will take herself off to bed but Grumpy wanting to go to bed generally means me having to go to bed, too. He's very insistent!

[westiemum]

Sadly we've had a worse week here with a couple of instances of the aimless growling - but he seems better this weekend - I think this is going to be the course of this thing - hopefully weeks of being fine followed by islands of the CCD behaviour. I also had a major full on fight this morning between the boys - highly unusual and only the second time I've seen them have a major to-do. They have been such good friends for such a long time...

I've ordered some Aktivait for Mac (21 GBP for 2 months supply + post) - it has such good reviews I decided I'd do whatever I could to slow down the course of the disease.

Good to hear Grumy is doing well. Did you manage to find some B/D? Mac is on half a cup twice a day and some veggies - if he has any more he gets too fat and his mother gets told off by the vet!

[Sheridan]

Sorry to hear about the boys having a set to. Could it be that Mac is losing his place in the pack order?

Would be very interesting in hearing what you think of the Aktivait.

Grumpy had a minor grump at me this evening. He had a stick on his chin and I pulled it off. He doesn't like hands where he can't see them. I said, 'Don't be a silly creature; you had a stick.' He kind of went, oh, and then he was fine.

On a slightly different topic, I said to my sister I wanted a lower bed so Grumpy didn't need to jump so high and thus far she's been the only person who hasn't thought I was silly for wanting a different bed just for my dog.

[westiemum]

Thanks Sheridan but I don't think its Mac losing his pack place - he was always on the bottom anyway. I suspect that its more about food - he seems to be becoming very food protective/possessive... although there wasn't any food around at the time... hmn... actaully just thinking about it it could be the reverse with Mac asserting himself against the younger more alpha boy... and it may or may not be part of the CCD... who knows.

Grumpy seems to be very purposeful with his grumping - when you describe it, it always seems to be at someone or something... whereas mac is growling into thin air - or is that what Grunmpy does as well?? I like the idea of a low bed - and will do the same here in the next 12 months or so - will be very interested to hear what you buy or how you go about it. Maybe a low futon or something?

Will post about the Akitvait after he's had a few weeks on it - hopefully will arrive this week.

Sorry to hear about the boys having a set to. Could it be that Mac is losing his place in the pack order?

Would be very interesting in hearing what you think of the Aktivait.

Grumpy had a minor grump at me this evening. He had a stick on his chin and I pulled it off. He doesn't like hands where he can't see them. I said, 'Don't be a silly creature; you had a stick.' He kind of went, oh, and then he was fine.

On a slightly different topic, I said to my sister I wanted a lower bed so Grumpy didn't need to jump so high and thus far she's been the only person who hasn't thought I was silly for wanting a different bed just for my dog.

[Boronia]

just cut the legs shorter on the bed Sheridan

[Little Gifts]

Westiemum I have an SBT who is heading on for 17. She was diagnosed with dementia last year and we also went on the vivitonin. It made a noticeable difference. My old girl had some minor strokes in January this year and I made a pts appointment for the end of the month but she picked up again. In Feb I was in Cairns doing recovery work after the cyclone. It wasn't till March that I realised we had run out of vivitonin. I asked my sister when and she said while I was away in Feb. So my old girl probably hasn't had any meds for at least 6 weeks and is bright as a button again, better than pre-dementia. I'm thinking that one of the strokes may have unblocked a blockage that was interfering with brain messages. Her dementia was lots of aimless wandering and staring and toileting without thinking where she was. I'll tell the vet at our next monthly appointment but if she says to leave her off them then I will.

[Rysup]

When my 15 year old does some of the aimless barking, I put it down to not being able to see. He can't see anything beyond dark & light these days He is pretty good but has the very occasional stint of barking or crying at nothing.

I have not re-vaccinated him since he was 2 - he had severe reactions to vaccinations, so he has not been re-done in 13 years.

My "14 in May" girl rarely barks at nothing, but when she does I put that down to being deaf. Maybe its not?

[westiemum]

Hi Puppy Sniffer

Thanks for your post - that all seems very plausible and its really good to hear your old girl is doing well again. My old boy is having a bad time of it at the moment after a good month with no sign of the CDD at all. So hoping that he comes 'out of it' again and we have some futher periods of no ainless barking and growling.

Westiemum I have an SBT who is heading on for 17. She was diagnosed with dementia last year and we also went on the vivitonin. It made a noticeable difference. My old girl had some minor strokes in January this year and I made a pts appointment for the end of the month but she picked up again. In Feb I was in Cairns doing recovery work after the cyclone. It wasn't till March that I realised we had run out of vivitonin. I asked my sister when and she said while I was away in Feb. So my old girl probably hasn't had any meds for at least 6 weeks and is bright as a button again, better than pre-dementia. I'm thinking that one of the strokes may have unblocked a blockage that was interfering with brain messages. Her dementia was lots of aimless wandering and staring and toileting without thinking where she was. I'll tell the vet at our next monthly appointment but if she says to leave her off them then I will.

[westiemum]

Rysup its hard to tell and you probably need a vet experienced with canine dementia to help out as its really difficult when a doggie has other sensory deficits like sight or hearing. Apparently 60% of dogs over 10 show at least one sign of canine dementia - so dementia is certainly possible. My Mac has significant hearing loss - none on the left and questionable on the right - but it was the aimlessness of the behaviour which set it apart and gave me the clue it was relalted to something else besides his hearing loss.

One of the best things I think you can do at this stage is keep a diary. I bought a cheap one earlier in the year and keep it on the coffee table in the lounge and write down the nature, time, length of time of all episodes of everything to do with my dogs (also helps my failing ('dementing") memory when I'm talking to the vet. It gives a really clear picture of whats going on. For example my other westie had a seizure this morning so I timed it and described in in the diary - only took a minute. I also note anythign else that changes - sleep behaviour, agitation, food changes, vitamin additions, medication changes etc. Keep the diary for 4 -6 weeks then head off to the vet and go from there.

When my 15 year old does some of the aimless barking, I put it down to not being able to see. He can't see anything beyond dark & light these days He is pretty good but has the very occasional stint of barking or crying at nothing.

I have not re-vaccinated him since he was 2 - he had severe reactions to vaccinations, so he has not been re-done in 13 years.

My "14 in May" girl rarely barks at nothing, but when she does I put that down to being deaf. Maybe its not?