Doggie Dementia/ccd?

[westiemum]

Thanks very much corvus - will do - thats good to know. :rolleyes:

You could PM deerhoundowner. She's been researching canine dementia for the last 3 years. She is a wealth of knowledge on the topic.

[Sheridan]

Just you wait. It's all 'I'm a bit demented, Mum, can I sleep on your bed?' and 'I'm a bit demented, Mum, but another of those bikkies will make me more alert.'

;)

Sheridan I haven't laughed so much in days! Thanks so much - and you just might be right! :D

If this was Grumpy, I'd be saying that he was a cunning little bastard who knows how to wind his mum around his little finger.

[westiemum]

Must admit the cunning little hound has taken to the Hills b/d like there is no tomorrow!!! :D And here I was worried he'd rather starve despite the fact he's a little rotund at the moment!!! (Praying he has a big poo and loses weight tomorrow before we go to the vets tomorrow night!!! )

Friends have suggested its something to do with his deafness (He is as deaf as a door post! You can clap above his head out of sight and there's no response, nor is there one when there is a loud noise while he's sleeping. The only startle response is when you touch him when he's deeply asleep and he cues off the other two westies all the time). So might be something to do with it.

Oh well, let's see what the vet says tomorrow night. Prayers please everyone that its his deafness and nothing else... and he poos...

Just you wait. It's all 'I'm a bit demented, Mum, can I sleep on your bed?' and 'I'm a bit demented, Mum, but another of those bikkies will make me more alert.'

:) ;)

Sheridan I haven't laughed so much in days! Thanks so much - and you just might be right! ;)

If this was Grumpy, I'd be saying that he was a cunning little bastard who knows how to wind his mum around his little finger.

Edited January 23, 2011 by westiemum

[westiemum]

Well its good and bad news... my wonderful vet believes he is in the early stages of CCD or canine demetia. She was at pains to point out the difference between purposeful growling and barking and non-purposeful or aimless barking and growling as a helpful differentiator.

But the good news is that we've caught it early, he should continue at this stage to have more good days than bad days and she was really pleased that I'd started him on the Hills b/d. She is going to research the Aktivait, has started him on the Vivitonin, and has recommended keeping him really well stimulated and doing new things and keeping him well. We decided not to vaccinate him (he's due but low risk) and she talked about three year vaccination schedules She also really liked my diary (I joked that Mac was not the only one who is dementing! I have to write stuff on the westies down or I forget!).

But most importantly Mac has had a string of good days since last Friday. So here's hoping we continue to have many more of them.

Thanks everyone for your help - you have no idea how much grateful I am for your help, kindness and support.

Thanks tons,

Westiemum and Mac.

Edited January 25, 2011 by westiemum

[persephone]

[luvsdogs]

My first bc April had CCD. The vet put her on 2 types of tablets, one being for the dementia & as it's over 3 yrs ago can't remember what the other one was for. She was always my baby dog & never in her life ever attempted to bite me. If she was about to bite, if I pulled a knot in her coat for eg, she would stop when she realised it was me. She started to go deaf first then her eyes started to cloud over. When I took her to the vet & said she seemed to have dementia he laughed at me. The meds didn't seem to do any good so I didn't go back for a 2nd lot.

She seemed to become afraid of me & I was almost scared to touch her, I had to make sure she was awake & looking at me. It was so upsetting. She would get into a corner of the garage & start to howl because she couldn't turn around or find her way out. She did enjoy her food but would lie down to eat & make such a mess trying to eat it as fast as she could. Back then didn't know there was a special diet for dementia.

In my sig pic she is 14 yrs 4 days old & at that stage wasn't showing any CCD symptoms. She lived to 7 weeks short of 15 yrs. So I guess she had dementia for about 6 mths before she died. I hadn't had her vaccinated from the age of 9 yrs because of hearing that vacs weren't needed as often as vets lead us to believe & a couple of friends warned me about having an aged dog, after both their 9/10 y/o dogs died following vac. So I chose not to have her done after that. The vet actually rang me to ask why when I ignored 2 reminders. After discussing it for over 1/2 an hour he agreed that they thought vacs lasted about 3-4 yrs but canine cough vacs only lasted 6 mths, so thought it too hard for people to remember that, so it was easier to have them done annually. My son's 10 y/o dog hasn't been vaccinated since we 1st got Tilba & the vets havn't sent reminders for vacs, only check ups. How things have changed in 3 short years.

[westiemum]

Thanks for your post luvsdogs - and I'm so sorry to hear about your bc girl and your laughing vet. Owners are often the best reporters of changes in their dogs as they are with them 24/7. I love working with mine - she is a very good listener and doesn't dismiss my opinions. You're right - things have certainly changed - for the better.

Yes I've been told the course of this disease is highly variable - and the stories in this thread support that. The approach I'm going to take is one day at a time, observe him carefully and diarise any incidents and changes so I can report accurately to the vet, and enjoy every good moment I have with him.

My first bc April had CCD. The vet put her on 2 types of tablets, one being for the dementia & as it's over 3 yrs ago can't remember what the other one was for. She was always my baby dog & never in her life ever attempted to bite me. If she was about to bite, if I pulled a knot in her coat for eg, she would stop when she realised it was me. She started to go deaf first then her eyes started to cloud over. When I took her to the vet & said she seemed to have dementia he laughed at me. The meds didn't seem to do any good so I didn't go back for a 2nd lot.

She seemed to become afraid of me & I was almost scared to touch her, I had to make sure she was awake & looking at me. It was so upsetting. She would get into a corner of the garage & start to howl because she couldn't turn around or find her way out. She did enjoy her food but would lie down to eat & make such a mess trying to eat it as fast as she could. Back then didn't know there was a special diet for dementia.

In my sig pic she is 14 yrs 4 days old & at that stage wasn't showing any CCD symptoms. She lived to 7 weeks short of 15 yrs. So I guess she had dementia for about 6 mths before she died. I hadn't had her vaccinated from the age of 9 yrs because of hearing that vacs weren't needed as often as vets lead us to believe & a couple of friends warned me about having an aged dog, after both their 9/10 y/o dogs died following vac. So I chose not to have her done after that. The vet actually rang me to ask why when I ignored 2 reminders. After discussing it for over 1/2 an hour he agreed that they thought vacs lasted about 3-4 yrs but canine cough vacs only lasted 6 mths, so thought it too hard for people to remember that, so it was easier to have them done annually. My son's 10 y/o dog hasn't been vaccinated since we 1st got Tilba & the vets havn't sent reminders for vacs, only check ups. How things have changed in 3 short years.

[Sheridan]

I like vets that listen to me. After all, I live with my dog, they don't. Sorry to hear your dog's vet didn't take you seriously, luvsdogs. It's very rude. The vets we see learn very quickly that I tend to be Research Girl and they explain everything in detail.

I think I'll take Grumpy for a mental health check up soon. He is becoming vaguer and more needy. His latest, which started two nights ago, is that he needs to be bribed every few inches to his bed. Previously, he'd take one or two but now it's every single step, even with chicken.

westiemum, how long did the vet say the Vivitonin would take to kick in?

Edited January 26, 2011 by Sheridan

[westiemum]

westiemum, how long did the vet say the Vivitonin would take to kick in?

hmn... Sheridan I don't think she did... I'll ask when I'm next there on the 3rd (Mac needs a dental...). Do you know by any chance?

[Sheridan]

westiemum, how long did the vet say the Vivitonin would take to kick in?

hmn... Sheridan I don't think she did... I'll ask when I'm next there on the 3rd (Mac needs a dental...). Do you know by any chance?

No, sorry. I don't remember. I think it was a couple of weeks.

[westiemum]

I've just had a look around and it seems that most people think that if its going to be effective it kicks in in a few days - but will check with the vet.

We're continuing to have good days - Mac is alert and with it and I haven't seen any sign of the growling and barking behaviour over the last week which sparked all this. So either the Hills b/d or the Vivitonin or both are helping. At the moment its all good

Thanks again everyone - particularly you Sheridan for all your help and making me laugh! . I'm sorry to hear Grumpy seems to be deteriorating - all fingers and paws crossed for you here.

Edited January 26, 2011 by westiemum

[Sheridan]

I've just had a look around and it seems that most people think that if its going to be effective it kicks in in a few days - but will check with the vet.

We're continuing to have good days - Mac is alert and with it and I haven't seen any sign of the growling and barking behaviour over the last week which sparked all this. So either the Hills b/d or the Vivitonin or both are helping. At the moment its all good

Thanks again everyone - particularly you Sheridan for all your help and making me laugh! . I'm sorry to hear Grumpy seems to be deteriorating - all fingers and paws crossed for you here.

I don't think the bribing every few steps to the bed is a deterioration. I think he's finally worked out he can get more to eat and if he doesn't, he gets to sleep on my bed. It's a win win situation for the cunning little ratbag. I'm certainly going to ask about the Hills, though, because I am concerned about his reaction to things. A car started up the other day and he reacted in the same way he does to thunder. :D

Edited January 26, 2011 by Sheridan

[westiemum]

Yes trying the Hills b/d certainly won't hurt - and something certainly is working here. My vet is usually very circumspect about these sorts of things but she was genuinely really pleased to hear I'd already started the boy on it. Despite Hills mixed reputation, she genuinely believes this is a good food for older dogs like this. She's going to research the Aktivait too which is a neutraceutical (sp?) and see if there is something similar in Australia - so when I find out from her what she thinks I'll let you know. Some people on the net are reporting good results with the Aktivait when they've had less success with the Vivitonon.

Quite frankly all this is fairly hit and miss - so its a case of suck it and see.

I've just had a look around and it seems that most people think that if its going to be effective it kicks in in a few days - but will check with the vet.

We're continuing to have good days - Mac is alert and with it and I haven't seen any sign of the growling and barking behaviour over the last week which sparked all this. So either the Hills b/d or the Vivitonin or both are helping. At the moment its all good

Thanks again everyone - particularly you Sheridan for all your help and making me laugh! . I'm sorry to hear Grumpy seems to be deteriorating - all fingers and paws crossed for you here.

I don't think the bribing every few steps to the bed is a deterioration. I think he's finally worked out he can get more to eat and if he doesn't, he gets to sleep on my bed. It's a win win situation for the cunning little ratbag. I'm certainly going to ask about the Hills, though, because I am concerned about his reaction to things. A car started up the other day and he reacted in the same way he does to thunder.

[Sheridan]

Yes trying the Hills b/d certainly won't hurt - and something certainly is working here. My vet is usually very circumspect about these sorts of things but she was genuinely really pleased to hear I'd already started the boy on it. Despite Hills mixed reputation, she genuinely believes this is a good food for older dogs like this. She's going to research the Aktivait too which is a neutraceutical (sp?) and see if there is something similar in Australia - so when I find out from her what she thinks I'll let you know. Some people on the net are reporting good results with the Aktivait when they've had less success with the Vivitonon.

Quite frankly all this is fairly hit and miss - so its a case of suck it and see.

Yes, I think so, because what works with one dog won't necessarily work with another. Aktivait sounds very interesting. Have you seen this? Vet on the Web.

This bit is very relevant:

Within the category of disorientation, dogs suffering from dementia will show a delay in the recognition of people, places and objects and in some cases there may be no recognition at all

.

When Grumps had his bad drug episode, he had no idea who I was. Sometimes I'll call him and it's not that he doesn't respond, it's more that he can't tell where the call is coming from (I would put this down to hearing loss but he manages to hear the fridge opening without any trouble).

[westiemum]

Yep thanks Sheridan - I had found that article - its a good one I think - and thats where I came to the conclusion (as much as you can with this stuff), that there are roughly three appraoches to this - drugs, nutritional supplementation or both. So the vet is going to research the Aktivait as well and we'll go from there. In the meantime we're doing OK on the Hills and Vivitonin.

Mac often doesn't respond either but he's genuinely deaf as a door post. So hard to know excatly whats doing what. He's been alert, interactive and following me around as usual since last weekend - so I'm hopeful he will continue to ahve good days.

Will be very interested to hear how Grumpy gets on on the Hills, and whether or not you see any improvement.

[Boronia]

Hi Westiemum,

keep us updated on Mac's progress...Penny is 12 now and I have a feeling that she will go gaga in the next year or so as she had a pretty tough life up until Moira saved her from a dirty stinkin' BYB

[Sheridan]

Yep thanks Sheridan - I had found that article - its a good one I think - and thats where I came to the conclusion (as much as you can with this stuff), that there are roughly three appraoches to this - drugs, nutritional supplementation or both. So the vet is going to research the Aktivait as well and we'll go from there. In the meantime we're doing OK on the Hills and Vivitonin.

Mac often doesn't respond either but he's genuinely deaf as a door post. So hard to know excatly whats doing what. He's been alert, interactive and following me around as usual since last weekend - so I'm hopeful he will continue to ahve good days.

Will be very interested to hear how Grumpy gets on on the Hills, and whether or not you see any improvement.

It's great that Mac is doing better. I'll have to wait until next pay to get the Hills. I just bought a kilo each of chicken bits (bribes) and green-lipped mussels, so I'm a trifle poor this week, thanks to Grumps. No blame attached to Mini as she's a good girl and hops into bed when asked.

[westiemum]

Hi Boronia,

Good to hear from you and Penny.

Hope you don't mind me asking but are you noticing any early behaviour changes? If so, don't delay and get thyself and thy westie to a vet familiar with CCD/doggie dementia . The information I've looked at suggests strongly that catching it early and starting a treatment regime early and not assuming that its part of normal aging (its not) can make a world of difference. Apparently many people leave it until the incontinence stage and by then its usually too late to get much improvement.

The signs with Mac are fairly subtle still at this stage and easy to overlook - the intermittent symptoms started late last year (funny purposeless growling mainly) and I wrongly assumed he was just becoming a grumpy westie. Its only been in the last couple of weeks I put the whole thing together and headed off to the vet - and boy am I glad I did. So keep a close eye on her - normal aging is simply slowing down a bit with alertness and interest in life etc still present. In my case occasional purposeless growling and barking and occasional vacant staring where he appeared to not recognise me or the youngest boy westie were not normal signs of aging.

Hope that helps and ditto - please let us know how Penny gets on.

As we all become more aware of this I think we are all going to need all the support and information we can get.

Hi Westiemum,

keep us updated on Mac's progress...Penny is 12 now and I have a feeling that she will go gaga in the next year or so as she had a pretty tough life up until Moira saved her from a dirty stinkin' BYB

[westiemum]

It's great that Mac is doing better. I'll have to wait until next pay to get the Hills. I just bought a kilo each of chicken bits (bribes) and green-lipped mussels, so I'm a trifle poor this week, thanks to Grumps. No blame attached to Mini as she's a good girl and hops into bed when asked. laugh.gif

:) The things we do for our dogs!!! ;)

I'm sure I could repay the debt of a small developing country with what I've spent on my guys over the past two years - and I'd do it all again in a heart-beat. :D I know what you mean - Mac's in for a dental and the cars in for a service and some minor repairs all on the same day next week - ouch! Thank goodness Mini is a good girl for you.

BTW I found this link while I was surfing around earlier tonight - and I think its very good. Hope it helps

[Sheridan]

That's a good link. I can see some of those things in Grumpy, though only a few. I'm going to discuss with the vet.

I have noticed recently that he's often quite puffy at night. Rarely during the day. I am concerned that this is congestive heart failure but it's another to put on the list.

Went out for 40 minutes this morning and the attitude when I got back ... You went OUT. I had to stay OUTSIDE! I need something to eat!