Human Aggressive Dogs - The Extent To Which They Can Be Rehabilitated

[koalathebear]

I was having lunch with a friend yesterday and she mentioned that a friend of hers had an 18 month old cattle dog that he had picked up as a young puppy from a rescue here in Canberra. The dog was taken to obedience class, had always been beautifully behaved, obedient and respectful of boundaries. Recently, he took the puppy to his mother's house and the dog attacked his mother quite badly. The dog's now apparently at the RSPCA undergoing assessment to see if it's possible to rehome it on a property somewhere or if it should be put down. The owner is apparently very upset because he adores his dog and the dog had never shown any signs of aggression prior to the attack on his mother.

I'm not sure of how experienced the RSPCA staff are so I said that if her friend wanted a second opinion, he could perhaps try contacting K9Pro who DOLers have advised has an excellent record of working with dogs that have behavioural issues. I sent her a link to the story of DJ the Black Lab vs Granny. She said that she'd pass on the details because her friend was very upset.

On re-reading the story of DJ the Black lab and also considering the case of the ACD's attack on the friend's mother, I started thinking that it must be difficult to 'recover' from something like that. I have seen from other fora that people will speak quite freely about being attacked/bitten by their dogs but we see less of it here on DOL. It's possible that the dogs here on DOL have less behavioural issues or perhaps it's the case that it's something people don't really like to talk about because they're afraid that people will judge/criticise/tell them to put the dog to sleep etc.

I guess what I'm wondering is, if a dog is human aggressive and has actually bitten/attacked someone - can it ever be truly rehabilitated or does a line get crossed and thereafter it will require extra careful monitoring and management? At what point should the call made to 'put to sleep'? Can the 'trust' of the dog ever be regained? For people who have been bitten by their dog, were you able to 'forgive'? I guess for me what was a bit scary was how this dog had apparently never shown any such behaviour before and it seemed like such an unfortunate and random incident that could happen to anyone. I know all of the above will be "it depends" - depends on the dog, depends on the owner and all that sort of thing but I suppose I am curious about what other people have experienced. One website startled me because the person asking for advice had been bitten several times by her dog and to be honest if it was me, I'm sure I would have sought professional help after the first time I was bitten.

[Are You Serious Jo]

One thing that jumps out at me, the dog may have shown signs yet the owner may not have been experienced enough to pick up on it. I personally wouldn't want the liability of a dog like that, so my response would be no, I'm not that forgiving of HA.

[koalathebear]

One thing that jumps out at me, the dog may have shown signs yet the owner may not have been experienced enough to pick up on it. I personally wouldn't want the liability of a dog like that, so my response would be no, I'm not that forgiving of HA.

I'm not a very experienced dog owner so I have to confess I'd also feel very unsure about the ongoing management of a human aggressive dog, but I do feel bad for the owner. So sad given that the dog's only 18 months old.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i would not keep a HA dog around. i would PTS without question

[MolassesLass]

For me it would depend on largely on the circumstances. For this case, was it a single bite or was it a mauling? A single bite is not necessarily HA to me.

I also can take more chances with no children or the elderly visiting and facilities to securely house a dog for other visitors.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

For me it would depend on largely on the circumstances. For this case, was it a single bite or was it a mauling? A single bite is not necessarily HA to me.

I also can take more chances with no children or the elderly visiting and facilities to securely house a dog for other visitors.

agree. i took HA to mean an attack not a nip

[Are You Serious Jo]

Recently, he took the puppy to his mother's house and the dog attacked his mother quite badly.

I took that to mean more than a nip, so this dog would go to heaven if it was me I'm afraid.

[koalathebear]

Recently, he took the puppy to his mother's house and the dog attacked his mother quite badly.

I took that to mean more than a nip, so this dog would go to heaven if it was me I'm afraid.

Yes ... it sounded like it was definitely more than a nip.

Also, I found the website I was thinking of. It's this one - warning it's the extremely gruesome one that shows all the photos of dog bites. It's usually posted on DOL by people warning people about children and dogs etc. I remember when reading it that I was a bit surprised that many of the dogs that were the subject of the emails being written were still around i.e. people were giving them second, third chances etc. I guess people might be more lenient if the dog bit them but would be less lenient if it bit a child/someone else ... Very sad all round. In any case, I figure it can't hurt to have a second opinion before the dog is put down.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Recently, he took the puppy to his mother's house and the dog attacked his mother quite badly.

I took that to mean more than a nip, so this dog would go to heaven if it was me I'm afraid.

yep me too

[corvus]

Ian Dunbar has a bite severity scale that I think uses photos of the bite to help inform decisions about what should be done with the dog. Behaviourists I have heard talking about it have put a lot of weight on whether the bite was inhibited and to what extent. It is generally considered that an inhibited bite is worth working with, but an uninhibited bite is a huge concern. But then, everyone is different in what they will work with and what they won't, and what they see in the dog when they view it.

In general, a behaviour that occurs once is always lurking in the background as a behaviour that can occur again. It can be inhibited, or the trigger dealt with, but it's always still a possibility.

[halfthewords]

One of my dogs, Carl, is very HA. He is fear-aggressive but that does not make him any less dangerous or difficult. Owning him is all about management, constant rehabilitation and measuring risks. I wouldn't have it any other way though. He was obviously abused as a pup because it's ingrained in his behaviour and he displays more fear than any dog I have ever met (have worked in rescue for 5 years, seen a LOT of dogs). He has gone from 0% to around 70% in three years. It's a hard job but depending on the dog, it can be done. If he was bigger than he is (size of a small staffy) I would have more problems with it. As it is, he's not terribly strong.

[Burkes]

I would also recommend Heike Hahner to assess the dog seeing as K9Pro are not in Canberra. She has done some work with our foster dogs and has a very good understanding of dog behaviour.

[Nekhbet]

I was having lunch with a friend yesterday and she mentioned that a friend of hers had an 18 month old cattle dog that he had picked up as a young puppy from a rescue here in Canberra. The dog was taken to obedience class, had always been beautifully behaved, obedient and respectful of boundaries. Recently, he took the puppy to his mother's house and the dog attacked his mother quite badly. The dog's now apparently at the RSPCA undergoing assessment to see if it's possible to rehome it on a property somewhere or if it should be put down. The owner is apparently very upset because he adores his dog and the dog had never shown any signs of aggression prior to the attack on his mother.

Dogs dont just snap. There is more to the story I imagine.

I have had a couple of HA dogs come here. Only one has ever caused me fear, in order to transport I muzzled him and chained (yes I mean with a chain) in the back of my wagon. And to those who think, well use a crate dufus!, getting said dog out of a crate was a 3 man and catching pole job which I could not do. Saying that he was (ironically maybe?) quite a cuddle bum when he got to know you - until he flipped to I'm a wild dog mode. He luckily found a home where he keeps another aggresive dog company together in a large run on the breeders secure premises.

Properly HA dogs to me have no workability. I dont want a dog that no one can go near or spends its time trying to tear everyone apart. Those dogs get a one way trip to the vet from me.

If a dog bites a person we look at the circumstances. Saying that when the bite goes past the point of nip/grab and the dog refuses to let go or actually chews into the bite/thrash that dog gets no second chance.

[koalathebear]

Properly HA dogs to me have no workability. I dont want a dog that no one can go near or spends its time trying to tear everyone apart. Those dogs get a one way trip to the vet from me.

If a dog bites a person we look at the circumstances. Saying that when the bite goes past the point of nip/grab and the dog refuses to let go or actually chews into the bite/thrash that dog gets no second chance.

Thanks for the insights. I guess I'm more disconcerted by the dog that seems fine and then snaps rather than the dog that is openly aggressive because arguably it's easier to identify and manage (make decisions about) the openly aggressive one. In any case, it must be a terrible situation to be in because by all accounts, the dog is most beloved.

[The Spotted Devil]

I won't comment on HA but have grown up with ACDs and, to the untrained eye, they do look like they bite "out of nowhere". They can be quiet and thoughtful. They can be very protective of their humans and their property - we used to say "they'll let you IN the gate but they sure as hell won't let you OUT!" I'd be seeing a professional quick smart.

[animalia]

I wouldn't be so quick to recommend someone put down a dog until I knew the full story, the mum might of startled the dog, who knows? I would get a FEW professionals too have a look at it, the RSPCA people probably wouldn't be the best people to do this. If it's a one time bite this dog can be saved, the guy sounds like he loves the dog so he shouldn't give up so quickly on it.

I own a one time very aggro acd (about an 8 1/2 out of 10) she was not a one time biter she had bitten and punctured quite a few times at her previous home but I persisted with her for months and now she's about 98% better ( 2 out of 10) but do I let off lead no, do I leave her unattended with people no. I manage her, I still take her out in public but I'm very aware of her past. I'd say stick with the acd put 100% in and at the end if he's still aggro you can honestly say you did everything possible for this dog and make a decision then and this might be after a year of behavior modification and training.

People give up too easily these days with dogs!

[koalathebear]

People give up too easily these days with dogs!

That's why I'm interested in the different levels of tolerance. Some people say that they'd never tolerate their dog putting teeth on human skin ever even if no skin is broken, some people seem to be prepared to put up with a lot more. I figure it can't hurt to have it more thoroughly assessed to see if the aggression is manageable - is it perhaps health-related etc ...

[animalia]

I have worked with dogs for 10 years now and can read their behaviour and I don't fear dogs but I definatley respect what they can do. I have also seen many dogs with, some would say severe behavioral problems, that have been rehabilitated not all get to 100%, but to a point they can exsist in society. It doesn't happen over a few weeks some like my own can take a year, but I think it's worth it as the stem of their issues 99% of the time are due to people either a lack of socialization especially in their critical period, a lack of exercise, a lack of leadership and poor breeding.

We owe to them!

Also I do want to add that for those who recommended the dog to be put down even when they hadn't physically assessed the dog-

I once had someone who is widely known in the dog behavior world say to me when he was teaching me a few things, "when you are teaching or working with a dog and the dog is displaying an undesirable behavior, someone who gives up, gets frustrated, or tries only one or two methods to fix the dog will limit themselves and their knowledge. When i get a dog that shows an undesirable behavior I often think to myself "yes", why? Because I now get to use the extent of my knowledge to try and fix the behavior, if this does not work I get to research new techniques that I have not tried. In the process of fixing this behavior I have also learnt new methods and I can take this experience with me and fix another dog with my new knowledge"

If more people in the dog world thought like this and when they saw an undesirable behavior in a dog like aggression, instead of being afraid or narrow minded they saw it as an opportunity to broaden their knowledge and experience whilst in the process helping a dog

Edited January 15, 2011 by animalia

[Are You Serious Jo]

Well unfortunately the world isn't full of clones of you, it is full of people who cannot manage a dog with human aggression. Do I want those people being in charge of a dog that can inflict serious damage on me, my pets or other innocent people, no. There is a reason for the media dog bite hysteria and it is because of people who don't know how to handle or don't care enough about their dogs. Harsh reality is some dogs are too dangerous to risk being let live. You might be capable of spending unlimited time or money on a dangerous dog, but plenty of others aren't and it is the innocent dogs and owners and the community who pay the price.

[animalia]

I never expected someone who hasn't got a back ground in dogs to undertake behavior modification, I was talking about professionals that give up to soon. I didn't spend any money re training my dog I did it myself as I have worked with dogs for the last 10 years, it was trial and error and a he'll of a lot of persistence and I made time for it.

My point is that people who own dogs shouldn't give up on them so easily, ask a professional for help or join a dog club most of which aren't too costly and ask for advice there.