Using Someone Else Prefix

[Inevitablue]

Im thinking way in advance, however here goes -

Is this something breeders can or maybe would do in general. I am getting a bitch and when she is ready to have a litter I would love to breed her, primarily to keep a male for myself.

I have no interest in becoming a breeder, so dont really want to go through the process of becoming a registered breeder. Does it occur where the prefix of the dogs kennel is used for the paperwork. Even if it meant myself leasing the bitch to the stud for the period of the whelp?

Im not looking for financial gain, the owners of the dog could even keep any of the puppies if they so wished.

I might be really off track here, I just would really like to produce 1 litter of pedigree puppies, to enable me to keep one. LOL, I would rather you guys 'Tell her she's dreamin' instead of phoning people with a potentially silly question.

[Parkeyre]

If you are getting a bitch to breed, to keep a male.. just get a male.

No point bringing in a whole litter of pups for one dog.

[LizT]

Sadly, wanting to breed "just one litter" with the idea of 'keeping a pup' because you just love your girl so much and want one of her babies is often the reason given by those that breed many ill conceived litters.

Breeding any litter of puppies is something that should be done with much consideration and if your bitch is good enough to breed then her breeder may be interested in leasing her back from you for this propose. You would then have the opportunity to do what you are thinking about.

Talk to her breeder about this idea of yours. And continue to give it much, much more thought (as you appear to be doing now).

Edited January 14, 2011 by LizT

[SparkyTansy]

If you don't want the work or aren't interested in becoming a breeder, why do you want to breed a single litter? if you have no interest in becoming a breeder, then quite frankly, you wouldn't be equipped with the knowledge to breed a litter as well as do the work to bring it up.

Your bitch might not be good enough to breed with, but perhaps a sister that is kept by the breeder to be bred to the right male will be an option if you want a male from the same lines. Why do you think that you only want another dog out of the female you get? If you are happy to have the breeders prefix on a litter you have at your home, then why not get another pup from that breeder, which has been brought up the same way as your female would have been, with an experienced breeder in their home?

There are some breeders out there who might be willing to allow you to have a litter with a bitch that is good enough, and they might even allow it at your house... This is actually how it happened with our second weimaraner, Sparky, who was rehomed due to an injury. She was good enough to be bred from, and came to us on the condition that she have a litter. most breeders, however, will take the bitch back to have a litter, if they send one out on Breeders Terms.

[Aziah]

Agree with everyone else...

Why not purcahse a male from the same breeder?

[Inevitablue]

I like to have 2 dogs, and I like them to be of opposite sex.

The breeder has given this new bitch full registration, because she is of excellent quality and worthy of breeding. As I said, Im not looking to mass produce puppies, Im also not into bringing in a whole litter of unwanted, non pedigree puppies. I will cover her with a worthy stud to produce a whole litter of quality puppies.

I'd go back to the breeder of this bitch, however Im not a fan of line breeding (whilst not experienced in the do's and dont's of the dog breeding community, I am experienced in horse breeding) and yes, I will be asking her advice.

Plese don't think that Im asking this question because I just want to see a whole litter of cute puppies running around my house. Im just not ofay with the written and unwritten protocols of the dog breeding world.... hence why I am asking the question.

If it isn't a possibility, then I will happily get a male puppy.

[Aziah]

Take the bitch back to the breeder then, I'll be honest, if I'd sold you the bitch and you decided she must have this litter and took her elsewhere I'd be pissed!

Edited January 14, 2011 by Aziah

[Bokezu]

There is no point in just having one litter to keep a puppy from a bitch you haven't even bought yet. Its not quite that easy anyway. You have to read and study your breed and know the standard well. You have to have all health tests done on your bitch, she has to be a good speciman of her breed. You then have to find a compatible stud to breed her with and pay all costs. The financial outlay to breed one litter is considerable, and thats if all goes well. I won't go in to detail of all relevant costs.

If you are getting a bitch of your chosen breed, look forward to that, enjoy her company and let her have a happy life without thinking of getting her pregnant just for the heck of it. Maybe in 3 or 4 years when you know more about the breed, and your girl in particular, you may still decide to go ahead and breed her.

The breeding you are wanting to do is for all the wrong reasons, you need to own your breed for a few years before you consider breeding, just enjoy your dog first, and learn all you can about the breed, her lines and canine reproduction, you might then decide to get a prefix and have a litter! Good Luck

[Inevitablue]

There is no point in just having one litter to keep a puppy from a bitch you haven't even bought yet. Its not quite that easy anyway. You have to read and study your breed and know the standard well. You have to have all health tests done on your bitch, she has to be a good speciman of her breed. You then have to find a compatible stud to breed her with and pay all costs. The financial outlay to breed one litter is considerable, and thats if all goes well. I won't go in to detail of all relevant costs.

If you are getting a bitch of your chosen breed, look forward to that, enjoy her company and let her have a happy life without thinking of getting her pregnant just for the heck of it. Maybe in 3 or 4 years when you know more about the breed, and your girl in particular, you may still decide to go ahead and breed her.

The breeding you are wanting to do is for all the wrong reasons, you need to own your breed for a few years before you consider breeding, just enjoy your dog first, and learn all you can about the breed, her lines and canine reproduction, you might then decide to get a prefix and have a litter! Good Luck

I understand everyone thinking Im on the verge of doing this but Im simply asking the question and I am experienced with the breed.

Again..... Im just asking if this is something that happens..... it happens quite often with some breeds of horses. Im just wondering into the future thats all, and asking a question to the experts.

My first line was.... Im thinking way in advance

[SwaY]

Yes, you can lease your bitch back to the breeder and she can have a litter from her.

BUT, the reasons behind you wanting to do it I don't agree with at all.

What happens if the bitch dies during whelping, or gets Pyo?

The bitch will be gone from your house for approx 6+ weeks.

[Inevitablue]

What happens if the bitch dies during whelping, or gets Pyo?

Isn't that a risk all people who breed their bitches take?

I work within a vet clinic so I would have very good help if I needed it

Thankyou for answering my question I was just wondering if it occured

[SparkyTansy]

If the breeder has sold your bitch on mains because she is exceptional, then i would imagine she might be open to the idea of having a litter with her... though if you aren't willing to get a prefix, and it'd be on her prefix, for starters not many are willing to leave the bitch with you for the litter, secondly, if it's on her prefix, i am guessing that she is going to choose the stud dog with little to no input from yourself.

What makes you think that you'll breed a better or healthier litter with your bitch because you aren't linebreeding?

[Inevitablue]

What makes you think that you'll breed a better or healthier litter with your bitch because you aren't linebreeding?

Just my experience with dealing with line bred horses. But I am keen to hear about it in the dog world. I suppose my current thinking on line breeding is also swayed by working with a couple of scientists who are also not keen on it. While I work within a vet clinic, Im in a laboratory. We are actually working with some new and exciting treatments for cancer, DCM, CHF, Atopic Dermatitis and OA. Remember that cancer drug that was featured on A Current Affair.... well we are about to run the Stage 2 trials for it in NSW unbelieveable, the tumours just die and fall off within a week.

Thanks guys. You have answered my curiosity driven question

[SparkyTansy]

I can see where you are coming from, however doesn't the Cross breed phenomenon also prove that outcrossing is a risk? Yes, linebreeding (but more so inbreeding) can have issues associated with it, but careful, well planned litters from breeders who KNOW their lines, are aware of the risks and have done sufficient research are probably less likely to run into an issue than someone who picks an unrelated dog without knowing either line well. I have two outcrossed dogs and one who is linebred (although not a tight line breeding). The line bred dog is incredibly healthy - much healthier than my other two, who both have some pretty serious issues. The outcrossed dogs were probably just as well researched but they still can't predict what might crop up as easily as a line bred litter can.

On a different note, the laboratory you work in sounds fascinating!! Best of luck with the stage 2 trials. I think i remember reading about it although I didn't see it on A current Affair...

[SwaY]

What happens if the bitch dies during whelping, or gets Pyo?

Isn't that a risk all people who breed their bitches take?

Yes, but it's not something the average pet person takes into account when they take on one of these deals.

[Rebanne]

The only way to do it is to lease your bitch to a breeder who already has a prefix. Preferably that would be the breeder who trusted you enough to sell you a main registered bitch. Does your breeder know of your plans? I would be ropable if a bitch I bred was leased to someone else without my input being asked.

[Dogsfevr]

Well for starters there is no crystal ball to say you will get a male in a litter so if you don't get a male then what happens??

I gather this is a cattle dog so you will need to get the bitch(unless the breeder has already before sale which ideally they should) BAER tested.

Then you will need to do hips/elbows & eye tests for PRA/cataracts unless they have a DNA test for it in ACD whether it be sector 1 only or full & any other issue.

This would be at your expense .

If your breeder isn't interested in doing a litter from her then you need to become a member & have the dogs paper's in your name,to join your state body & apply for a prefix if you wish to use a suitable male.if you don't no member will allow there dog to be used over your bitch so you will have to find some randon dog that has also been health tested

As already mentioned if you sign the bitch back to the breeder then the litter is there's ,they will select the male & the breeding they wish to do which may not meet what you want for just 1 pup.

I guess the simple question is you either want to the hard yards or you don't for 1 pup.

Having said that these are the questions you should be discussing with your breeder

Also you will have to have a written agreement that if there is only 1 male in the litter who gets it ,that pup may be pick of litter which the breeder wishes to keep

Edited January 14, 2011 by showdog

[Inevitablue]

Yes guys, I'm out at her place tomorrow and fully intend on asking her. I was only just asking the question from a regulatory point of view and 'commonly practiced' point of view.

Its not in my set plans to do this.... I had just got wondering, as I spoke to her this afternoon and she said this pup is turning out to be something special. I will ask for all her help, and would entrust her with the line selection etc if she didnt have a suitable male. Im suspecting she would love to have this option (educate me..thats called breeders terms?)

All the BAER testing Im fine with, and xrays (not that Im worried about cost, but I do work within a vet clinic).

Just circumstances got me wondering....my landlord is more than happy with me having one dog, but said they'd prefer if it was kept to just one. Pending my partners business and my line of work coming to fruition then we will be able to get our dream house in about 18 months to 2 years. So no 2nd dog till then (dont plan on moving anytime soon)......hence why I just got wondering!

I havent renewed my Dogs NSW membership since I stopped trialling my old dogs, but am intending on renewing ,and showing/trialling this girl. I'm not a newbie to dogs, but I have never really paid attention to the breeding side of things.

I understand peoples concern, and maybe I should have clarified my position and my simple curiosity.

[kelpiesrule]

Hi Jakemon

Definately talk to your breeder about what you want to do, she may be willing to work this out with you and find a stud dog suitable for your girl. I have sold bitches to people on breeders terms, with me getting a litter in my name, my cost etc, and given them a pup in return for whelping and bringing up the litter. I also know of other breeders who have done this, but most of them will whelp the litter themselves. Get everything worked out and make sure you are both clear on what each wants.

What you are asking for is not unreasonable as long as you discuss everything with your breeder and obviously all tests are done for your breed. PRA and BAER are definately a must to test for before breeding your bitch. Also make sure the stud dog is done as well.

KR

[dancinbcs]

Yes guys, I'm out at her place tomorrow and fully intend on asking her. I was only just asking the question from a regulatory point of view and 'commonly practiced' point of view.

Its not in my set plans to do this.... I had just got wondering, as I spoke to her this afternoon and she said this pup is turning out to be something special. I will ask for all her help, and would entrust her with the line selection etc if she didnt have a suitable male. Im suspecting she would love to have this option (educate me..thats called breeders terms?)

All the BAER testing Im fine with, and xrays (not that Im worried about cost, but I do work within a vet clinic).

Just circumstances got me wondering....my landlord is more than happy with me having one dog, but said they'd prefer if it was kept to just one. Pending my partners business and my line of work coming to fruition then we will be able to get our dream house in about 18 months to 2 years. So no 2nd dog till then (dont plan on moving anytime soon)......hence why I just got wondering!

I havent renewed my Dogs NSW membership since I stopped trialling my old dogs, but am intending on renewing ,and showing/trialling this girl. I'm not a newbie to dogs, but I have never really paid attention to the breeding side of things.

I understand peoples concern, and maybe I should have clarified my position and my simple curiosity.

I have done this successfully several times. Several litters under my prefix have been raised by the bitches owners, under my supervision. Some have been bitches I bred and others in the past were main registered bitches (before limit was even thought of) from breeders who were happy for them to do whatever they wanted with the bitch. If the bitch a was good enough and suited one of my dogs I was happy to negotiate breeding a litter with the owners.

Personally, I don't like the idea of taking a bitch away from her owner to whelp and raise a litter and some owners love the chance to raise a litter with a lot of help and encouragement. I prefer the owner to take all the risks with their own bitch, including the financial ones, that are all carefully explained first. Then I lease the the bitch on paper, organise the mating, attend the whelping, run back and forth advising on the rearing, find buyers, register the litter, provide puppy notes and find buyers for them. With a couple of people, I have even put my prefix in dual names, so they could have their name on the litter as well. Some people just have the one litter, keep a puppy and put the whole thing down to experience. Others go on to become breeders themselves, get hooked on showing their new baby and end up taking out their own prefix. I have started a few breeders off this way. Most people don't know if they want to be breeders until they have experienced raising a litter. After that they are either keen to become breeders, or never want to do it again.

This system has worked fine for me because I only have room for a small number of dogs and don't have time to breed very often. Letting others use my prefix has let me keep the prefix going, allowed me to have some very successful show dogs under my prefix and started off some other now keen exhibitors and breeders. Because my intention is never financial gain and I only do it for litters I believe are worthwhile, I have never had a problem with these arrangements. Surprisingly, I have never needed a written agreement either.

So yes, it can work if the bitch owner is prepared for all possible outcomes and is prepared to follow the instructions of whoever is mentoring them and providing the prefix.