Docked Vs Cropped

[myValkyrie]

So wait, you are talking about a one-off incident where a dog breaks it tail and you decide to amputate?

Yes that is fine if amputation will stop the dog being in pain, but we are not talking about amputation we are talking about docking. 2 completely different things.

Scenario 1: 6 month old pup breaks it tail beyond repair. Vet agrees to amputate. All is well.

Scenario 2: 2 year old bitch has broken it's tail and owner decides to breed it. Owner think all pups should be docked at birth to avoid breaking their tails. No, not acceptable.

I still stand by my statement that docking dogs purely because they might break their tails is ridiculous. Call me cruel if you want, send me your videos of your dog screaming in pain (why you would even consider doing that I don't know) but I will never change my opinion on docking and I am glad it is banned.

If you really are talking about docking, not amputating, then AGAIN, Why are Dalmatians not docked but Dobes are when you claim breaking their tails is an excuse?

Here's my version of your scenario 1:

11 month pup injures tail - no need to amputate, it's hanging by a thread of skin. Lots of blood (tail injuries bleed profusely), pain & antibiotics later, what's left of tail starts to heal. Weeks later, he knocks his healing stump - more bleeding, more antibiotics - repeat twice more. Eventually it does completely heal - but it's far from all being well. This little guy now gets very anxious & aggressive if anyone touches him anywhere near his rear end & don't even think about touching the stump. It's not just their physical well-being a severe tail injury affects - the fright and longer term pain of the injury does just as much, if not more damage

[The Ark]

So wait, you are talking about a one-off incident where a dog breaks it tail and you decide to amputate?

Yes that is fine if amputation will stop the dog being in pain, but we are not talking about amputation we are talking about docking. 2 completely different things.

Scenario 1: 6 month old pup breaks it tail beyond repair. Vet agrees to amputate. All is well.

Scenario 2: 2 year old bitch has broken it's tail and owner decides to breed it. Owner think all pups should be docked at birth to avoid breaking their tails. No, not acceptable.

I still stand by my statement that docking dogs purely because they might break their tails is ridiculous. Call me cruel if you want, send me your videos of your dog screaming in pain (why you would even consider doing that I don't know) but I will never change my opinion on docking and I am glad it is banned.

If you really are talking about docking, not amputating, then AGAIN, Why are Dalmatians not docked but Dobes are when you claim breaking their tails is an excuse?

Here's my version of your scenario 1:

11 month pup injures tail - no need to amputate, it's hanging by a thread of skin. Lots of blood (tail injuries bleed profusely), pain & antibiotics later, what's left of tail starts to heal. Weeks later, he knocks his healing stump - more bleeding, more antibiotics - repeat twice more. Eventually it does completely heal - but it's far from all being well. This little guy now gets very anxious & aggressive if anyone touches him anywhere near his rear end & don't even think about touching the stump. It's not just their physical well-being a severe tail injury affects - the fright and longer term pain of the injury does just as much, if not more damage

We've had this scenario recently with an 8yo greyhound, obviously not a breed that has traditionally been docked. Much blood and pain - however our vet saw sense and amputated and she is now on the mend. I'm happy for docked breeds to be docked in a humane manner (I know some people believe there is no humane way to do it), but tail injury doesn't fly very well as the only reason to do so when there are so many other breeds (sighthounds, etc) that have never been docked and are SO prone to tail injuries - much more so than some of the breeds traditionally docked.

[SparkyTansy]

Well said angelsun :D

[Sheridan]

"And what are the numbers so far? In comparison."

"Oh I would love to see this, do you have a link?"

It is not ready yet but once it is I will certainly publicise it as we want to get as many records as we can. I do not know of all injuries etc within our breed but two I know of are:

2 litters - 5 now docked after constant injury.

1 litter - 2 now docked - 4 constantly injured.

At this point it will be Dobermanns only as far as I know.

Personally I don't care about other breeds and their issues this is my breed and this is what I have dedicated my life to.

There's been how many litters born since tail docking?

[angelsun]

"And what are the numbers so far? In comparison."

"Oh I would love to see this, do you have a link?"

It is not ready yet but once it is I will certainly publicise it as we want to get as many records as we can. I do not know of all injuries etc within our breed but two I know of are:

2 litters - 5 now docked after constant injury.

1 litter - 2 now docked - 4 constantly injured.

At this point it will be Dobermanns only as far as I know.

Personally I don't care about other breeds and their issues this is my breed and this is what I have dedicated my life to.

There's been how many litters born since tail docking?

There is also 'bad luck' to be tossed into most scenarios. Ask most Dane breeders if they have been doing it long enough, of the injuries out there. Danes have a good thick tail, much like most natural tailed Dobes and yet they split, break etc on a regular basis probably because they have such wag enthusiasm!

There will always be arguements about such things as coat coverage, tail thickness for example, to try to back up justification for mandatory docking on traditionally docked breeds, but I will continue to say, they simply don't fly. The GP tail is finer than their younger cousin the Dobe and yet we don't have the injuries...why?

I had Manchesters, not normally docked and yet they have a thinner tail (structure) and less coat coverage than the GP and yet we had few if any tail injuries and the ONLY documented case of amputation on a Manchester, that I am privy to, was because of a dog attack.

The arguement goes on to talk about tail carriage and set....Manchesters carry their tail off their croup lower than any of the pinschers and the tail is to sweep out and low, which would assume be a prime target for abuse and injury, compared to many of the natural tail dobes I have seen, which firstly, have a higher tail SET (to be correct to the standard) and carry their tail above their back (based on how it's positioned on their hind end) thus raising the tail to a height which would logically place the tail out of danger in many cases (unless it's being smashed on overhead door jams perhaps?)

I've watched the docked tail debate for many years with the UK being one country that created influence with us in North America by bringing in their anti docking laws....watched many in the traditionally docked breeds attempt to form a database to back up the 'injury' arguement, however it simply hasn't worked, because there simply isn't justification in that arguement.

I've seen more tail injuries in gundogs (labs/goldens/setters) than I have seen COMBINED in the formerly traditionally docked breeds.

**Please don't forget for a moment, that I'm PRO docking.....it's not about some lame excuse as to why we need to dock..it's about losing my RIGHTS to dock!

[Lowenhart]

I do not own or breed historically docked breeds. I do however believe in the right of CHOICE, and that it is not a cruel practice.

Some links for you:

http://www.cdb.org/index.htm

http://www.cdb.org/countries/sweden.htm

[Sheridan]

**Please don't forget for a moment, that I'm PRO docking.....it's not about some lame excuse as to why we need to dock..it's about losing my RIGHTS to dock!

I prefer docked tails on my breeds. Love the wiggy wag tails of them but people keep bringing up the injury thing without showing how many injuries there have been in traditionally docked breeds since the ban. If there were so many of them in my breeds, I'd have heard about it, particularly since the ban in Australia is fairly recent compared to Europe so if there were loads of injuries to wheatens and kerries, it would be all over the lists and I don't recall a single case.

I don't think there is a 'right' to do anything to an animal, by the way. There is commonsense but it's little applied. If it's done correctly and early, by someone who knows what they're doing, then I don't believe any harm comes to the dog.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Sheridan

[Crisovar]

Any stats on other breeds... German Shepherds, Dalmatians, Whippets, Chinese Cresteds? Any breeds with full tails? Don't forget to include those in your stats!

WE MUST make sure EVERY single breed is docked from birth! Otherwise it is cruelty!!!! They all might break their tails!

/End sarcasm.

Good Grief take a look at the tails on some of the breeds you are carrying on about, look at the way the tail is held and how the dog uses it.

All breeds carry their tails differently and the temperament of each breed is different.

Try as she might my GSD could never use her tail the way a Boxer does not to mention the fact that it is very well protected by her coat.

[Shaar]

Good Grief take a look at the tails on some of the breeds you are carrying on about, look at the way the tail is held and how the dog uses it.

All breeds carry their tails differently and the temperament of each breed is different.

Try as she might my GSD could never use her tail the way a Boxer does not to mention the fact that it is very well protected by her coat.

A lot of Boxers I see around the streets carry their tails over their backs. Great Danes carry theirs in a Sabre out behind them. Seems the Dane is more likely to injure their tail.

Sorry, still not convincing me injury is a reason to dock an entire breed.

[becks]

anglesun

There will always be arguements about such things as coat coverage, tail thickness for example, to try to back up justification for mandatory docking on traditionally docked breeds, but I will continue to say, they simply don't fly. The GP tail is finer than their younger cousin the Dobe and yet we don't have the injuries...why?

I think it is due to the size of the dog, those who are larger will have the longer tails. You have more power behind a tail that is longer. I have minis and giant schnauzers. I have yet to have a sore leg from a wagging mini tail but have had bruises from Giants who were wagging tails at shows as I walked past at the wrong moment

[Lab_Rat]

Oh, if we could just train our dogs to NOT wag their tails, there would be no injuries

I have a ridgeback, long whippy tail that is susceptible to injuries. She has had a couple of tail injuries in her four and a half years which have been quite annoying. But luckily none have been so bad as to require vet attention.

So Ive got an extremely stupid but serious question...............Could the tail injury incidences in traditionally docked breeds be because that breed has never had to suffer tail injuries and somehow genetically cant deal with them as well?? I cant seem to word the question exactly how I want to, so feel free to enquire more and Ill have a think about it ;)

I often threaten my girl I will vetwrap her tail to her hind leg if she doesnt stop wagging it!!!

BTW, I am neither for or against docking. I have no preference but I have never owned a docked breed.