Docked Vs Cropped

[The Ark]

Interesting point about bobtails. Shouldn't we select the puppy that best meets the standard, not the one with the best bobtail. I see this in boxers who have imported dogs from UK that were cross bred with corgis to get the bobtail gene. The standard of these bobtail boxers being show is very poor and is effecting the standard of the breed. They are purely selected for their tails which don't meet the standard anyway with a fish hook on the end. If this is the best they have to select in their litters then i would hate to see the worst. My point is that all for the sake of the tail the breed has been severely effected in its quality of dogs being shown. I Judges need to be aware of this and shouldn't penalise a dog with a natural tail in traditionally docked breeds.

That's true, Skye2, and that's the way I intend to go forward with our own dogs. Bobtails would be nice, but it's the rest of the dog that counts.

[Gayle.]

I have got an NBT Aussie girl and honestly, she's got the untidiest natural short bob I've ever seen. Nature did a bloody awful job with her. Her tail is about 2 inches long and has a kink in it. The end is blunt, and it's set high so when she gaits it stands upright and looks awful. But the breeder did the right thing in not having her docked (which she easily could have been given the angle of the kink).

It's a bitch to trim because it never looks nice, but she's a gorgeous girl in every other way.

My NBT boy also has a 2 inch tail, but his lies lower and isn't really noticeable and is much easier to trim into a nice blended shape to fit with the rest of him.

NBT's aren't always NICE bobs, some of them are very untidy.

[SparkyTansy]

I show two traditionally docked breeds. in one of the breeds, I show against older competition, so a traditional short dock. The other competition is a bitch from NZ. I think I may have had judges that have never been quite used to the tail and find it harder to judge - most of thsoe judges are from the US and Canada.... however I have also had some excellent judges both from Australia and internationally who have rewarded my full tailed dog over docked competition a number of times. I even had one judge admit she had never judged a tailed OES before, and then put us up for BOB

I have no issues showing against docked dogs, and I hope that the rule doesn't change...

[angelsun]

Many judges have told me to my face in the ring whilst judging my full tailed dogs, that they work hard to ignore the tail but will admit to liking the breed better with a docked tail. This backs up almost all of the judges that examine the dog, that grasp the tail low where it would be docked.

I've won plenty with tailed dogs however I"ll still prefer the docked look, regardless of rules and standards and opinions.

[Leema]

I also propose that the ANKC is still for docking (it's the government that has banned docking against the will of the ANKC), and that is why the ANKC permits docked dogs to be shown.

While the ANKC is against cropping, hence cropped dogs not being allowed to be shown. (Plus the lack of cropping tradition in Australia.)

[Shaar]

I don't agree with cropping, as a matter of fact I just don't plain like it, however, some breeds are cropped for health reasons.

Great Danes have cropped ears because when they ran through thick scrub the ears were less likely to be torn when rigid and upright than flopping everywhere and loose.

So the argument health vs beauty doesn't work with docking vs cropping.

How many Great Danes are running through thick scrub? Fighting dogs were also cropped to prevent the opposition grabbing their ears but dog fighting is banned in this country so there is no basis to crop for prophylactic reasons.

How many poodles do you see still being used to retrieve ducks? I don't know of any, yet until the law was changed they were a docked breed.

I don't know what dog fighting has to do with anything, I was talking about legal, practical reasons.

And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious? What about Dalmatians or Danes or Whippets, are we going to start docking them because they break their tails? Really? I know one of mums Danes broke her tail several times whacking it on door frames, guess she should have picketed to make them a docked breed then.

I know the majority of show people don't like that the rule has been changed and most people don't like not being able to dock their dogs but it is unnecessary. You can't honestly tell me besides looks and "they break their tails" there is one good reason for you to dock your dog... and original purpose is not a reason unless you actively hunt or actually own a farm and work your dog.

Go ahead and flame me, I'm used to it.

[Bisart Dobes]

I don't agree with cropping, as a matter of fact I just don't plain like it, however, some breeds are cropped for health reasons.

Great Danes have cropped ears because when they ran through thick scrub the ears were less likely to be torn when rigid and upright than flopping everywhere and loose.

So the argument health vs beauty doesn't work with docking vs cropping.

How many Great Danes are running through thick scrub? Fighting dogs were also cropped to prevent the opposition grabbing their ears but dog fighting is banned in this country so there is no basis to crop for prophylactic reasons.

How many poodles do you see still being used to retrieve ducks? I don't know of any, yet until the law was changed they were a docked breed.

I don't know what dog fighting has to do with anything, I was talking about legal, practical reasons.

And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious? What about Dalmatians or Danes or Whippets, are we going to start docking them because they break their tails? Really? I know one of mums Danes broke her tail several times whacking it on door frames, guess she should have picketed to make them a docked breed then.

I know the majority of show people don't like that the rule has been changed and most people don't like not being able to dock their dogs but it is unnecessary. You can't honestly tell me besides looks and "they break their tails" there is one good reason for you to dock your dog... and original purpose is not a reason unless you actively hunt or actually own a farm and work your dog.

Go ahead and flame me, I'm used to it.

Breaking their tails not a good reason ? Ok, so next time my young girl injures her tail and is screaming in her crate or the trailer I will maintain the presence of mind to grab the video camera and record her in all her stress - and I will put it on our website with a link so that you can enjoy the fact that she was not unnecessarly docked.

While I would prefer to have our dogs docked we have two litters on the ground with full tails since the law changed and both litters with multiple puppies are consistently beating docked dogs in our breed - the young girl above was awarded two challenges over this past weekend and over docked competition. So my preference for having them docked is not asthetic really - it is for the welfare of our beautiful dogs.

[Shaar]

Breaking their tails not a good reason ? Ok, so next time my young girl injures her tail and is screaming in her crate or the trailer I will maintain the presence of mind to grab the video camera and record her in all her stress - and I will put it on our website with a link so that you can enjoy the fact that she was not unnecessarly docked.

While I would prefer to have our dogs docked we have two litters on the ground with full tails since the law changed and both litters with multiple puppies are consistently beating docked dogs in our breed - the young girl above was awarded two challenges over this past weekend and over docked competition. So my preference for having them docked is not asthetic really - it is for the welfare of our beautiful dogs.

What in the heck does video taping a dog with a broken tail have to do with what I said? Wow there are some nutters on here.

Again... you have a breed that used to be docked.

Why are Dalmatians not docked when they are just as likely to break their tails than a Doberman?

[Bisart Dobes]

Breaking their tails not a good reason ? Ok, so next time my young girl injures her tail and is screaming in her crate or the trailer I will maintain the presence of mind to grab the video camera and record her in all her stress - and I will put it on our website with a link so that you can enjoy the fact that she was not unnecessarly docked.

While I would prefer to have our dogs docked we have two litters on the ground with full tails since the law changed and both litters with multiple puppies are consistently beating docked dogs in our breed - the young girl above was awarded two challenges over this past weekend and over docked competition. So my preference for having them docked is not asthetic really - it is for the welfare of our beautiful dogs.

What in the heck does video taping a dog with a broken tail have to do with what I said? Wow there are some nutters on here.

Again... you have a breed that used to be docked.

Why are Dalmatians not docked when they are just as likely to break their tails than a Doberman?

You wrote "And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious?"

I believe that extensive injury or breaking their tails and being in pain is a good reason to dock a dog / a breed. And maybe by seeing the level of pain and distress my young girl goes through you may open your mind up and see that this is not just an asthetic point of view. Then maybe not.

[Shaar]

Breaking their tails not a good reason ? Ok, so next time my young girl injures her tail and is screaming in her crate or the trailer I will maintain the presence of mind to grab the video camera and record her in all her stress - and I will put it on our website with a link so that you can enjoy the fact that she was not unnecessarly docked.

While I would prefer to have our dogs docked we have two litters on the ground with full tails since the law changed and both litters with multiple puppies are consistently beating docked dogs in our breed - the young girl above was awarded two challenges over this past weekend and over docked competition. So my preference for having them docked is not asthetic really - it is for the welfare of our beautiful dogs.

What in the heck does video taping a dog with a broken tail have to do with what I said? Wow there are some nutters on here.

Again... you have a breed that used to be docked.

Why are Dalmatians not docked when they are just as likely to break their tails than a Doberman?

You wrote "And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious?"

I believe that extensive injury or breaking their tails and being in pain is a good reason to dock a dog / a breed. And maybe by seeing the level of pain and distress my young girl goes through you may open your mind up and see that this is not just an asthetic point of view. Then maybe not.

So wait, you are talking about a one-off incident where a dog breaks it tail and you decide to amputate?

Yes that is fine if amputation will stop the dog being in pain, but we are not talking about amputation we are talking about docking. 2 completely different things.

Scenario 1: 6 month old pup breaks it tail beyond repair. Vet agrees to amputate. All is well.

Scenario 2: 2 year old bitch has broken it's tail and owner decides to breed it. Owner think all pups should be docked at birth to avoid breaking their tails. No, not acceptable.

I still stand by my statement that docking dogs purely because they might break their tails is ridiculous. Call me cruel if you want, send me your videos of your dog screaming in pain (why you would even consider doing that I don't know) but I will never change my opinion on docking and I am glad it is banned.

If you really are talking about docking, not amputating, then AGAIN, Why are Dalmatians not docked but Dobes are when you claim breaking their tails is an excuse?

Edited January 19, 2011 by Shaar

[Sheridan]

You wrote "And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious?"

I believe that extensive injury or breaking their tails and being in pain is a good reason to dock a dog / a breed. And maybe by seeing the level of pain and distress my young girl goes through you may open your mind up and see that this is not just an asthetic point of view. Then maybe not.

I've asked this before and received little response. How many dogs, previously docked in their breed, have had injuries to their tails since docking has been banned? One, two, many? Without numbers to prove that large numbers of dogs previously docked now have tail injuries, the argument 'they break their tails' is meaningless to the people who count: the lawmakers.

[Bisart Dobes]

You wrote "And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious?"

I believe that extensive injury or breaking their tails and being in pain is a good reason to dock a dog / a breed. And maybe by seeing the level of pain and distress my young girl goes through you may open your mind up and see that this is not just an asthetic point of view. Then maybe not.

I've asked this before and received little response. How many dogs, previously docked in their breed, have had injuries to their tails since docking has been banned? One, two, many? Without numbers to prove that large numbers of dogs previously docked now have tail injuries, the argument 'they break their tails' is meaningless to the people who count: the lawmakers.

We have two litters with full tails.

1. 5 puppies - 3 have broken tips and 1 has broken tip and constant damage further down the tail - this is cut, bruised, swollen and most of the hair is permanently off that part of her tail - she will not let you touch it most of the time and it does cause her pain often. They are 7 months

2. 10 puppies - 2 have broken tips and 1 has damage further down the tail - they are 3 months.

There is a register / website being put together so that there is a central point for all damage data to be collated and this will be used to lobby governments to reverse this law. But when we have people who are dead against it being changed from within the dog world we have no hope really. These people have to realise that when their breed is attacked by the RSPCA for whatever different characteristic it has (which makes it the breed in most cases) they won't have any support either because we just won't be around.

[Sheridan]

You wrote "And those people who use "they break their tails" as an argument are you serious?"

I believe that extensive injury or breaking their tails and being in pain is a good reason to dock a dog / a breed. And maybe by seeing the level of pain and distress my young girl goes through you may open your mind up and see that this is not just an asthetic point of view. Then maybe not.

I've asked this before and received little response. How many dogs, previously docked in their breed, have had injuries to their tails since docking has been banned? One, two, many? Without numbers to prove that large numbers of dogs previously docked now have tail injuries, the argument 'they break their tails' is meaningless to the people who count: the lawmakers.

We have two litters with full tails.

1. 5 puppies - 3 have broken tips and 1 has broken tip and constant damage further down the tail - this is cut, bruised, swollen and most of the hair is permanently off that part of her tail - she will not let you touch it most of the time and it does cause her pain often. They are 7 months

2. 10 puppies - 2 have broken tips and 1 has damage further down the tail - they are 3 months.

There is a register / website being put together so that there is a central point for all damage data to be collated and this will be used to lobby governments to reverse this law. But when we have people who are dead against it being changed from within the dog world we have no hope really. These people have to realise that when their breed is attacked by the RSPCA for whatever different characteristic it has (which makes it the breed in most cases) they won't have any support either because we just won't be around.

And what are the numbers so far? In comparison.

[SwaY]

There is a register / website being put together so that there is a central point for all damage data to be collated and this will be used to lobby governments to reverse this law. But when we have people who are dead against it being changed from within the dog world we have no hope really. These people have to realise that when their breed is attacked by the RSPCA for whatever different characteristic it has (which makes it the breed in most cases) they won't have any support either because we just won't be around.

Oh I would love to see this, do you have a link?

[Shaar]

Any stats on other breeds... German Shepherds, Dalmatians, Whippets, Chinese Cresteds? Any breeds with full tails? Don't forget to include those in your stats!

WE MUST make sure EVERY single breed is docked from birth! Otherwise it is cruelty!!!! They all might break their tails!

/End sarcasm.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Shaar

[angelsun]

I have never been one of those that has a traditionally docked/cropped breed to use the excuse "they injure their tails if they are left long". I simply believe strongly that my breed should be docked....traditionally it was docked....historically they are docked and I take offense with anyone that owns a non docked breed, that feels they have the right to comment that my preference in tail length is wrong or the proceedure to have it done is cruel.

I also prefer the cropped ear. I used to crop at 7-8 weeks with a vet in sterile conditions, unlike some that used their kitchen table, antiquated drugs and butcher techniques, and yet, I'm classified as the same for doing this proceedure. I never got an ear infection during healing, never had any problems and yet I'm classified the same as the kitchen cropper/breeder that slaps the pups on high antiboditics and has screaming pups for weeks as they heal.

To the owners of non traditionally cropped breeds, they see what we do and plaster us all with the same brush of cruelty. They truly believe we are barbarians because we LIKE the look. It's got NOTHING to do with function and safety, and sorry I won't back up that arguement with the other docked/cropped breeders out there, but I never have and won't start now....I simply LIKE the look and believe that my breed was designed to utilize these two cosmetic proceedures to create the breed I fell in love with.

For those that have full tail breeds that have never been altered....you are entitled to love your breed because of that feature, but you have no right to dictate to me, that I am cruel or wrong to continue to like a docked tail or pointy upright ears.

Edited January 19, 2011 by angelsun

[Bisart Dobes]

"And what are the numbers so far? In comparison."

"Oh I would love to see this, do you have a link?"

It is not ready yet but once it is I will certainly publicise it as we want to get as many records as we can. I do not know of all injuries etc within our breed but two I know of are:

2 litters - 5 now docked after constant injury.

1 litter - 2 now docked - 4 constantly injured.

At this point it will be Dobermanns only as far as I know.

Personally I don't care about other breeds and their issues this is my breed and this is what I have dedicated my life to.

[angelsun]

Personally I don't care about other breeds and their issues this is my breed and this is what I have dedicated my life to.

Unfortunately this is why we with docked breeds have had such problems...because so many others don't care about other breeds....we forget, that right now, we have lost the right to crop and dock because some people out there are louder and have made some rules in an area they either don't understand or unqualified to comment on.....for those of you with undocked breeds....be patient, one day you will have your right to keep your breed as you originally fell in love with it, challenged....and then will anyone else care that you have a problem? Probably not.

I'm all for keeping records and documenting the new issues that have come with not docking, however ALL data needs to be recorded or it simply means nothing and is empty data. It becomes a very one sided arguement if we can not back up the docking cause, with FULL support data. It's like submitting a thesis and not having to argue it.....all it becomes is a lengthy series of words, a good story if you will. As a result, means really nothing.

To throw a wrench into this debate, and remember..I'm very much PRO docking.....to date, we have no documented cases of severe tail injuries to my breed (another pinscher breed) Sure we have kinks/hooks/bends etc that pop out at birth, and if we could dock, we would make them disappear....now they are out there for the world to see. We have had a few natural bob tails born in this breed, clearly a birth defect and cause for concern as I have to wonder how this will affect the spine and mobility in maturity, but time will tell on that one. Globally, and remembering that this breed has been denied docking rights in quite a few countries for some time now, we have no documented case of amputation due to injury, or injury resulting in restraint/confinement of the tail (breaking, splitting etc) Anyone that has been around the GP, knows fully well how hard they can slap with that tail and how much it stings if you get one across the face, so that same tail hitting a door frame no doubt will be damaged to some degree, at this point however, they haven't been. Does this mean, because we aren't fighting injury after injury, that I am resigned to state that docking is not needed? No....it means I am glad that the dogs are not going through pain and discomfort because of a political decision, but I'll still push where I have to push, to be permitted to dock my breed as it was intended to be.

[Bisart Dobes]

Personally I don't care about other breeds and their issues this is my breed and this is what I have dedicated my life to.

Unfortunately this is why we with docked breeds have had such problems...because so many others don't care about other breeds....we forget, that right now, we have lost the right to crop and dock because some people out there are louder and have made some rules in an area they either don't understand or unqualified to comment on.....for those of you with undocked breeds....be patient, one day you will have your right to keep your breed as you originally fell in love with it, challenged....and then will anyone else care that you have a problem? Probably not.

I'm all for keeping records and documenting the new issues that have come with not docking, however ALL data needs to be recorded or it simply means nothing and is empty data. It becomes a very one sided arguement if we can not back up the docking cause, with FULL support data. It's like submitting a thesis and not having to argue it.....all it becomes is a lengthy series of words, a good story if you will. As a result, means really nothing.

To throw a wrench into this debate, and remember..I'm very much PRO docking.....to date, we have no documented cases of severe tail injuries to my breed (another pinscher breed) Sure we have kinks/hooks/bends etc that pop out at birth, and if we could dock, we would make them disappear....now they are out there for the world to see. We have had a few natural bob tails born in this breed, clearly a birth defect and cause for concern as I have to wonder how this will affect the spine and mobility in maturity, but time will tell on that one. Globally, and remembering that this breed has been denied docking rights in quite a few countries for some time now, we have no documented case of amputation due to injury, or injury resulting in restraint/confinement of the tail (breaking, splitting etc) Anyone that has been around the GP, knows fully well how hard they can slap with that tail and how much it stings if you get one across the face, so that same tail hitting a door frame no doubt will be damaged to some degree, at this point however, they haven't been. Does this mean, because we aren't fighting injury after injury, that I am resigned to state that docking is not needed? No....it means I am glad that the dogs are not going through pain and discomfort because of a political decision, but I'll still push where I have to push, to be permitted to dock my breed as it was intended to be.

I used to work tirelessly for the fight against BSL / anti tail docking / etc etc movements in this state/country - many years, hours and hours and hours of my own time, money and energy - years of meeting with the government / councils etc etc. Eventually I got sick to death of being attacked from within the 'dog world' for being over the top - for stating that tail docking was only the beginning - that once this was pushed through the RSPCA simply move onto step 2, then step 3 and on and on. And they will - they are very patient and very dedicated - they will just keep on poking away until they get what they want - it took 10 years of dedication on their behalf to get tail docking banned in this country - but dedicated they were and single minded they are. They will not stop and no matter how long it takes they will roll over everyone they wish to.

This is where we need to be - all totally dedicated to our own breed and cause. With a plan for the future of our own breed and its future. There is nothing stopping any other breed from collating data on their breed - on any matter - health issues, temperament, tail damange, etc etc.

And I am glad that your breed don't have the level of tail damage that ours does. Fantastic for your dogs and for your breed. But your breed is constructed totally differently than a Dobermann - regardless of them both being 'pinschers' - they are totally different. Maybe this is why your breed isn't being inflicted with injuries and ours is. Who knows. But by having a national database on all breeds doesn't help our cause with our breed - esp if your breed is not having an issue.

Now I choose to dedicate the extra time, money and energy I have to fighting for my own breed. That is my choice. That is my right.

[angelsun]

I think if you check your breed standard, you will see there is more alike than not alike..I"m the first to scream about the differences in topline and heads for example, between the breeds however my breed is as active if not more than the average Dobe and thus probably more suceptible to injury if we're talking tails....these two breeds wag their tails with equal enthusiasm and when you look at the structure of the tail, they are the same.

We are not discussing the differences that layback in shoulders will make as to whether a tail is more likely to be injured or not, nor are we discussing shape of feet that will influence this sort of thing...we are discussing whether tails should or should not be docked..I think they should, however I will not state that using the excuse that they MIGHT be injured is enough of a reason, compared to the reality that they are a traditionally docked breed and I simply like the look better....for some reason....the pro dockers seem to feel they must fall back on this, and use half put together statistics to back it up...what is wrong with simply and honestly stating that you like the look of it better....full stop.....that because of that, we should be able to continue to present our breeds in this manner...

I don't have injury stats to back up any statements by me to support docking, nor will I manufacture them....the arguement is valid by those that own non traditionally docked breeds with similiar if not identical tail structures and yet they are neither traditionally docked nor suffer overly with injuries.

In my opinion, the arguement of busted tails by those with docked breeds is weak at best, hence why I have never abided by it....I simply state the truth...history shows the breed this way, tradition continued and now some politician somewhere out there says we're wrong for continuing a method over a hundred years.