Article On Mounting

[corvus]

I thought this was an interesting article on mounting behaviour in dogs: http://www.dogsincanada.com/oh-behave-love-and-mounting

What do you think of it?

[tlc]

In my dogs I don't believe for a second that mounting, humping or what ever you want to call it is sexual. The only one of mine who does it occasionally is Cooper my oldest who is well socialized and very well mannered around other dogs but also likes to think he is the leader of all games, if there is a ball in play or a toy of some sort. if a another dog comes along (always bigger) and Cooper deams this other dog to be more In Charge than him he will try to hump but will look at me first to see if I am watching so to me he knows it's not acceptable behavior and if I give him the look or have to speak to him he doesn't try it. I think if it was sexual he wouldn't think about it he would just do it. Thinking about it now he hasn't done it for a long time but it is usually only with dogs that are new and bigger than him and we haven't been in that situation for a while.

What do you think of the article Corvus??

Edited January 12, 2011 by tlc

[Aidan3]

I think if it was sexual he wouldn't think about it he would just do it.

Why do you think it would be any different if it were sexual? Or from another angle, why wouldn't he "just do it" if it were status seeking?

[Guest english.ivy]

Reading the article now but Badger mounts one dog only, a friends large male labrador.

He did this alllll the time before he was netured but since he was done, he still does it, just not as often. Badger is submissive and the dog he mounts is dominate.

Never does it to any other dogs. I'm still working out why Badger does it to this one certain dog, who he sees frequently.

Ivy does it sometimes but I know she's trying to be dominate.

[Bubitty]

In Bitty, I think humping is her way of throwing a tantrum.

She never humps humans, other dogs or objects but we have bought her a plush bunny that is as big as her. Whenever she asks for something and we say no, or if Bubby refuses to play with her she will run up to the bunny, hump it and then move on.

Happens every time she is refused play, dessert, after dinner snack, pigs ear etc! She will go and abuse the bunny before resuming normal programming.

[corvus]

What do you think of the article Corvus??

I have to admit I really am not a Jean Donaldson fan. I don't really have a problem with her, but I rarely find I am in full agreement with her. In this article, I think she has missed some of the social nuances in play. I see when young dogs (less than 12 months) hump during play, it usually looks like rehearsal to me like Donaldson says. But I think play has a secondary purpose at least in dogs to rehearsing serious behaviour and that is learning about being a social animal. I always consider that a dog humping another dog is at that moment very close to the other dog and in a position where the dog underneath often can't easily get away if they want to. Little wonder there are plenty of dogs out there that really DON'T LIKE being humped. It tends to end play sessions and so I guess dogs learn to exclude it from their play repertoire. If that were the case, in play I would expect to see it reserved for dogs that know each other pretty well. I can't say I definitely see that pattern, though. Erik and Kivi are BFF and humping is about the only thing they don't do in play. None of their canine pals do it to them and they don't do it to their canine pals they don't live with, either. Possibly all those dogs got snapped at often enough for humping that they no longer do it in play to anyone, but Kivi and Erik have never really been play humpers. Why would they "rehearse" every other FAP in play, but not humping?

Erik humps Kivi when he is feeling social anxiety. Example, I do something Erik doesn't really like that he also can't control, like going outside to feed the hare without him, and I come back and he's humping Kivi. I train Kivi, or brush him in front of Erik and Erik often tries to hump Kivi. It is displacement behaviour to me. I am quite confident this accounts for a lot of humping in play as well. It's easy for play with a playmate that is not well known to abruptly plunge a dog into the realms of unsurety. If the other dog is not giving them enough play signals, how are they to know what this dog means? And, the presence of humans can surely also create moments of uncertainty, especially if the dog's owners roused on them for something during play and they weren't quite sure what.

So I guess I agree that dominance has little to do with it, and that humping in play is fine if the other dog is okay with it, but I don't necessarily think it is all about sex. I think maybe it's mostly about sociality.

[tlc]

I think if it was sexual he wouldn't think about it he would just do it.

Why do you think it would be any different if it were sexual? Or from another angle, why wouldn't he "just do it" if it were status seeking?

I think mainly the reason he wouldn't just do it is because it is like a lot of unwanted dog behaiour and he has learnt that it is not acceptable, thats not to say that on occasion a lot of dogs will still test the boundries. None of my 4 are big players except with each other, however they love the company of other dogs and look for them when we go to the park. all of mine hate it if another dog tries to hump them and the other dog is told off immediatley (by the dog)

Interestingy enough when i go to my friends who has two the same cross as mine, her youngest one will always try to hump my girl, hes 5 and she is 4 similar in size. She doesn't stand for it tells him off but he keeps trying. (both dogs desexed at an early age)

Corvus when it is happening with your two for whatever reason do you stop it or intervene? or let them sort it out itself?

[Jumabaar]

What do you think of the article Corvus??

I have to admit I really am not a Jean Donaldson fan. I don't really have a problem with her, but I rarely find I am in full agreement with her. In this article, I think she has missed some of the social nuances in play. I see when young dogs (less than 12 months) hump during play, it usually looks like rehearsal to me like Donaldson says. But I think play has a secondary purpose at least in dogs to rehearsing serious behaviour and that is learning about being a social animal. I always consider that a dog humping another dog is at that moment very close to the other dog and in a position where the dog underneath often can't easily get away if they want to. Little wonder there are plenty of dogs out there that really DON'T LIKE being humped. It tends to end play sessions and so I guess dogs learn to exclude it from their play repertoire. If that were the case, in play I would expect to see it reserved for dogs that know each other pretty well. I can't say I definitely see that pattern, though. Erik and Kivi are BFF and humping is about the only thing they don't do in play. None of their canine pals do it to them and they don't do it to their canine pals they don't live with, either. Possibly all those dogs got snapped at often enough for humping that they no longer do it in play to anyone, but Kivi and Erik have never really been play humpers. Why would they "rehearse" every other FAP in play, but not humping?

Erik humps Kivi when he is feeling social anxiety. Example, I do something Erik doesn't really like that he also can't control, like going outside to feed the hare without him, and I come back and he's humping Kivi. I train Kivi, or brush him in front of Erik and Erik often tries to hump Kivi. It is displacement behaviour to me. I am quite confident this accounts for a lot of humping in play as well. It's easy for play with a playmate that is not well known to abruptly plunge a dog into the realms of unsurety. If the other dog is not giving them enough play signals, how are they to know what this dog means? And, the presence of humans can surely also create moments of uncertainty, especially if the dog's owners roused on them for something during play and they weren't quite sure what.

So I guess I agree that dominance has little to do with it, and that humping in play is fine if the other dog is okay with it, but I don't necessarily think it is all about sex. I think maybe it's mostly about sociality.

Bluey does a similar thing. In situations where he is stressed he will try and hump Abby. She is not fussed by it although I have taught her to automatically sit so that I can distract bluey and try and work through what is making him stressed. I have also noticed it when he is extremely excited and doesnt have an outlet for that energy. I will also note that the first time this happened was at 10 weeks of age when he met a strange dog (acted strangely). His back end started humping (air) and he turned around to look at it. So at this age there would be no sexuality in it!!!!

Abby on the other hand I am sure does it more from a sexual side. She learnt at a breeders place where there were a whole heap of girls on heat humping each other. It is more common when she is on heat but she will mount another dog any time of the year (mind you she will also stand for a dog to mount her any time of the year the little tart!). Again I think this is more of and excitement and energy release process rather than completely sexual....

Hmmmm Not sure but I dont really see it as dominance. My smallest bitch (and of course the most dominant) likes to hump everyone, but was physically to small for anyone to hump her. Since a lighter bitch (who of course also is a little humping devil) has moved in Safire is more than happy to be humped.

They only hump pack members, never other dogs. So assume there is some relation to pack in the process.

NB- No my place isnt filled with a crazy continually humpind dogs! Although I have had a congo line go down the hallway on the odd occasion!

[corvus]

Corvus when it is happening with your two for whatever reason do you stop it or intervene? or let them sort it out itself?

Yes, I interrupt Erik. Kivi doesn't care in the slightest, but Erik is very prone to routine behaviour and I'd rather he didn't routinely hump something whenever he gets a little perturbed considering it's not widely accepted by possible humping targets.

[tlc]

My friend with the humping dog, they let him have his special pillow to do it too, which I think is really unacceptable, they think he likes it so lets him do it. (they learnt a valuable lesson one day when he was doing it and "it" got stuck out and was a real problem so they do curb his enthusiasm now more than beofre. For me the behaviour has never been tolerated, I guess have been fairly lucky not to have to deal with it only on the odd occasion with Cooper, he used to hump his toys (I always stopped him) as a young dog but desexed between 5 - 6 months and the behaviour stopped practcally immediatley with his toys and surfaced occasionally at play with bigger dogs.

Our old dog was entire till he was 8 and never ever did he hump anything and it was the wierdest thing he was around females in season (fully supervised of course) and never even looked twice at them. I don't even think he would have known what to do if he had the opportunity!

It is interesting exploring all the possibilities of why they do it.

[tlc]

Interesting woofen mentioning her dogs only humping pack members and not other dogs, mine have never humped each other apart from one day oldest girl tried to hump youngest boy (they were playing and he had the upper hand) and she got such a reving from me she never done it again ever. (dont think they do it when im not home, I have videoed and they sleep the whole time)

I'm guessing it makes a huge difference with show dogs and breeding dogs as they are not desexed but then does it become a sexual thing when they are not in season?? Im not really up with that side of things.

[Janba]

Our old dog was entire till he was 8 and never ever did he hump anything and it was the wierdest thing he was around females in season (fully supervised of course) and never even looked twice at them. I don't even think he would have known what to do if he had the opportunity!

It is interesting exploring all the possibilities of why they do it.

Most entire male dogs know when a bitch is ready to mate and often don't worry too much about in season bitches who aren't ready. I know I can run my entire boy with bitches in season who aren't standing (supervised) and once he has checked them out he and realised he doesn't try anything and he has been used.

My desexed male does hump my bitch sometimes in play and always her head. Never tries it on the other male or any other dog. I think with him it is a social thing and definitely not dominance or sexual.

[Jumabaar]

Corvus when it is happening with your two for whatever reason do you stop it or intervene? or let them sort it out itself?

Yes, I interrupt Erik. Kivi doesn't care in the slightest, but Erik is very prone to routine behaviour and I'd rather he didn't routinely hump something whenever he gets a little perturbed considering it's not widely accepted by possible humping targets.

I interrupt bluey when I know it is anxiety based.

But in all other cases I wont intervene unless someone is getting grumpy. The girls have all just come off heat and Abby is humping one of my girls who is not impressed, so I am asking her not to hump Demi, but the others dont mind so I am not stopping her humping them. She isnt stressed and neither are they.

Also none of my dogs has ever made an attempt to hump a human. So it would be interesting to see what motivated dogs to hump people, or non pack members as opposed to pack members.

Edited January 12, 2011 by ~Woofen~

[Aidan3]

I'm guessing it makes a huge difference with show dogs and breeding dogs as they are not desexed but then does it become a sexual thing when they are not in season?? Im not really up with that side of things.

My entire female and neutered male will hump each other when my female is in season, never when she is not in season.

ETA: however I know of plenty of dogs who will hump at other times

Edited January 12, 2011 by Aidan2

[Aidan3]

Also none of my dogs has ever made an attempt to hump a human. So it would be interesting to see what motivated dogs to hump people, or non pack members as opposed to pack members.

Jean Donaldson (the author of the article) has put humping on cue with her over-sexed bitch. She lets her hump her leg as a reward. Obviously this is quite controversial for several reasons, not the least of which being the suggestion that it is a form of bestiality. I think she is clear of that charge, but it's certainly not a social norm.

[Leema]

Stressed dogs hump. I think this is one of the principle motives behind humping - it's a stress response. Like calming signals are exhibited in times of stressed, as is humping.

Also, I had a breeder friend tell me that dogs pretty much get humpy when the inside of their front legs are touched (e.g. if they are in mounting position). (So far I have found this to be pretty true. If my dog gets something in between his front legs, he feels the need to hump - but doesn't really hump otherwise.) When dogs play with one another, then it's almost inevitable that the inside of their front legs will be touched and get them going.

[westiemum]

That's really interesting Leema. My last little foster failure westie, was a puppy farm rescue - so humping for real was his job! And it was probably the only time he got any attention. Since he has been with me and he's been desexed (2 years ago) he attempts to hump my desexed westie girl (she was desexed 4 years ago) and he really goes for it, thrusting body action and all! I've noticed though that its often preceded by a sort of courtship play dance with tails up - and usually she doesn't mind, dances and then plays 'the game' as well. Sometimes she moves away as if she doesn't want to 'play'. He too is a timid little boy who gets very stressed around strange men - but these play dances often take place in the evenings after dinner when he appears relaxed.

So when reading the article before the rest of this thread I must say I thought it described my randy little lads sex play to a tee!

Who knows!!

Stressed dogs hump. I think this is one of the principle motives behind humping - it's a stress response. Like calming signals are exhibited in times of stressed, as is humping.

Also, I had a breeder friend tell me that dogs pretty much get humpy when the inside of their front legs are touched (e.g. if they are in mounting position). (So far I have found this to be pretty true. If my dog gets something in between his front legs, he feels the need to hump - but doesn't really hump otherwise.) When dogs play with one another, then it's almost inevitable that the inside of their front legs will be touched and get them going.