Positive Re-enforcement Only Techniques

[Ianto]

referring to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BalancedTrainers/

bonniescot, a word of advice for you or anyone else thinking of joining this group. It is a tough group - most of the people on the list have been training dogs for 20 years or more. Think of a whole list of K9 force's. Say something silly and you will get creamed.

Wow if you think the the Balanced Trainers Yahoo group is tough then don't join Real Dog Training, it's even tougher http://groups.yahoo.com/group/realdogtraining/

[poodlefan]

PQM:

So you can say whatever you like - but expect to be asked for the evidence.

As it should be - and makes for more rigorous discussion. I will check it out thanks PQM.

[poodlefan]

PQM, I'm just reading some reviews for Adam's Task.. one reviewer states:

Hearne describes how she helped her dog dig a hole, while dancing playfully around with the dog, filled the hole with water, still acting playful with the dog, then suddenly, without any warning, forced the dog's head under water and subjected her to near drowning.

I've heard of this 'training' method before but didn't realise Ms Hearne was the 'trainer' involved. Is this true - did she do this?

[pgm]

PoodleFan: yes Hearne was the trainer. And no this is not what she did - specifically she did not "forced the dog's head under water and subjected her to near drowning."

This is a malicious reading.

If you want a quick persual of some of Hearne's work and writing, go to www.thesavvydog.com This is a site run by her husband.

Hearne is also the author of Bandit: Dossier of a Dangerous Dog. Which is an absolute classic text for anyone interested in BSL.

[poodlefan]

PQM:

PoodleFan: yes Hearne was the trainer. And no this is not what she did - specifically she did not "forced the dog's head under water and subjected her to near drowning."

So what DID she do?

I've had a look at that site... still checking stuff out. I saw the book on Bandit - that gets very mixed reviews too.

Hearne's references to treating dogs with "syrup" is giving me insight into your dislike of food rewards.. can't say I agree but there you go. Not a fan of the clicker, that's for sure.

Edited February 15, 2005 by poodlefan

[pgm]

So what DID she do?

PGM: read the book.

I saw the book on Bandit - that gets very mixed reviews too.

PGM: most of the books worth reading provoke strong opinions on either side.

Hearne's references to treating dogs with "syrup" is giving me insight into your dislike of food rewards

PGM: no it isn't.

[poodlefan]

OK PQM here's Hearne's explanation of the 'water' training:

When I have taught Salty the novice obedience commands, we have formed a society. There is some community as well, for it is in the nature of things that the precision of formal work stirs the Primary Imagination. But a curious thing has happened along the way. Salty has taken to digging holes, partly in order to occupy herself in the yard while I am at my typewriter, but also because hole digging is sacred; in the activity the secret significance of everything reveals itself. Here, corrections won't work. I may yell, scream, deliver "Out!" corrections all I like, but these will have little or no effect. She learns to make sure I am distracted, perhaps by listening for sounds of the typewriter, and has her hole-digging fix as often as she can. Any corrections and punishments are just part of the fun, accepted as a dedicated athlete accepts aches and injuries. I don't mean she likes being walloped, but she is not deterred by walloping as she was deterred when the matter of puddling on the rug came up: puddling on the rug wasn't sacred.

So I submit myself to the holy discipline of hole digging. Dressed in gardening clothes, I go into the backyard and discover the Hole. I rejoice. I dance a jig around the Hole in celebration of the Mystery. I congratulate Salty on the Hole and, still dancing, get out a spade and shovel with a view to making this perfect thing even more perfect. Salty is delighted and helps me dig the Hole. We perfect its Form, making it diamond- or heart-shaped. I dance another jig when we're done, and, still dancing, I go get the garden hose and fill the Hole with water. Then, still rejoicing, I put Salty's head in the Hole. She emerges quite quickly (she's a very strong, agile dog), gasping in astonishment and outrage. I am surprised and say, "But I thought you loved hole digging!"

I do this every day for three weeks. If there is no new hole, I redig the old one. It is not long before Salty starts hanging back as far as she can get when I start humming my hole-digging hymn as I get out my overalls. Her face begins to express something like "Christ! She's crazy! Hole digging is not fun!" And she stops digging holes and devotes herself to preventing the very thought of holes from coming into my mind. This has nothing to do with either punishment or authority, and if it is corrupted by either, then it becomes cruel. I just am, or have become, the sort of animal who has this crazy, incurable response to the sight of a hole; the only way to handle it is to keep me away from holes. (The spouse of a dedicated sailor may feel similarly about bodies of water.) An important aspect of this hole-digging cure is that it won't work unless I really do get excited in just this way about holes. If I get the idea that this is a battle of ego and stamina I'm doing punishment, not dog training. (Dogs have been drowned by people who didn't get this.) Merely going through the motions won't compel the dog's belief. Holes must become sacred for me. This obviously means that unless some other object, such as tidy lawns or flower beds or the safety of guests, is stronger in my imagination than hole digging, I will lose my ability to disapprove of holes, perhaps permanently, and in the future chances are quite good that unless the foundations of the house are threatened I won't cure any more dogs of hole digging and will instead stop and admire their holes. I may think up techniques for training dogs to dig holes on command.

Sorry but I find that utterly repugnant and totally unjustifiable whatever the philosphy behind it. The fact that the dog's head isn't held underwater doesn't improve the situation for me A different dog would have attacked her in defence well inside of three weeks IMHO.

Edited to add. From earlier in this story:

Salty is a bird dog, and a good one, which means that the chance of her biting me is so remote that we are unlikely to have to discuss it.

That just compounds it for me...

Edited February 15, 2005 by poodlefan

[Tabata]

The head in the hole filled with water is, I think, a Koehler method? Similar to his cure for chewing things - take the chewed object, put it into the dog's mouth and gaffer-tape his jaw shut.

Here is the passage from Hearne's book "Adam's Task" which contains the extract poodlefan quoted: http://acad.udallas.edu/phildept/wfrank/vicki_hearne.htm

Edited February 15, 2005 by Tabata

[Guest Tess32]

Lovely, heh.

It is not a method I could ever agree with - but maybe she should realise how her writing comes across as well. I don't think I'd find any joy in sticking my dog's head in a hole but she sounds gleeful. It's alienating.

PGM, as I understand it, you have no issues with HOW a behaviour is taught as long as it still produces results and a happy, well adjusted dog at the end?

To me, and maybe others, the HOW is important ethically.

Sorry re your last to me - I thought you meant secondary texts using OC as a basis was included in "reading theory"....which is what I meant.

Nat

[Kavik]

She seems to be giving the dog very human aspects in this story, goes a bit too far I think. (digging holes is sacred??)

And dogs can learn by watching people - they can certainly learn to dig holes by watching you weed the garden!

I'm not sure the method would have the desired effect. Strikes me similar to Bark Busters telling you to encourage the dog to jump on you and then correct the dog when it does. Certainly won't get any agility training out of that dog

[pgm]

totally unjustifiable whatever the philosphy behind it.

PGM: That's fine with me - but don't accuse me of having a closed mind (I am not saying you are) if you are not prepared to read and come to some understanding of the philosophy behind it.

A different dog would have attacked her in defence well inside of three weeks IMHO.

PGM: Hearne trained hundred of dogs thoughout her lifetime, not to mention the thousands of dogs William Koehler trained thoughout his lifetime, from which the method is derived. But now your saying that you know better? that a different dog would have attacked her?

Look, you don't have to read the book - you don't have to make the attempt to come to understand the philosophy behind different methods - its entirely up to you.

[Guest Tess32]

The head in the hole filled with water is, I think, a Koehler method? Similar to his cure for chewing things - take the chewed object, put it into the dog's mouth and gaffer-tape his jaw shut.

Here is the passage from Hearne's book "Adam's Task" which contains the extract poodlefan quoted: http://acad.udallas.edu/phildept/wfrank/vicki_hearne.htm

Really? Is that true?

Nat

[Guest Tess32]

PGM, is there a "main" Koehler book out there that I can read?

I like to read all different kinds of training whether I agree or not.

Nat

[Kavik]

Digging is difficult to stop. I would have thought though that it would be best not to involve the handler in the method (so that the dog would not associate the handler with bad things re digging and so that the dog would act the same whether handler home or not). Something remote would be better?

Like the problem with stopping barking by reprimanding - when you are not home, the dog will bark because you are not there to tell it off. Wouldn't the same thing happen if you use this technique to stop digging? Dog would still dig when you are not home? (if it is successful in stopping digging when you are home)

[poodlefan]

PQM:

PGM: Hearne trained hundred of dogs thoughout her lifetime, not to mention the thousands of dogs William Koehler trained thoughout his lifetime, from which the method is derived. But now your saying that you know better? that a different dog would have attacked her?

Yup! Unless by then she'd 'broken their spirit' as she admits is possible. But hey, if you don't believe me ask K9. There are dogs in this world PQM that will NOT tolerate this kind of physical correction. That doesn't make them inherently aggressive - they just have a kind of self esteem that leads them to conclude they don't have to put up with this kind of crap...

Other dog's may submit... but wait their chance to take out the handler... poorly trained protection dogs do it all the time.

Physical dominance over a dog is not always possible - I'd have loved to see her try this method on a horse..... not possible.

Sorry, but the absence of retributive thought doesn't change abuse into correction for me - I'll just have to disagree with you on this one.

Edited to add - I wonder how the pointer's water work went after that - I'd have thought she'd avoid it like the plague.

Edited February 15, 2005 by poodlefan

[Lablover]

Phew. I definitely need to find my glasses to read this whole thread.

I baby sat a labrador for a friend, who picked up the dog yesterday. The dog arrived completely wild and is a field working bred labrador. The owner complained the dog constantly pulls her over when she "tried" walking it and will not return after thrown a retreive. Naturally LOL after the owner left and the dog had time to settle, I took him for a walk. I laughed so much as this dog dragged me (and I am not small) and flipped me over with the lead.

Over the course of 5 days of the 14 month old lab staying with me, I trained him to heel, sit (and at distances), stay, return with an article.

I used timing of praise, timing of negative reinforcement and knowledge.

The owner rang me today and cannot believe the change in the dog. Hopes it continues.

Timing of praise and correction is nearly everything. Focus and experience is the other (everything).

[pgm]

Tess32: I don't think I'd find any joy in sticking my dog's head in a hole but she sounds gleeful.

PGM: no offense, but that statement clearly shows that you have not understood what she is doing.

Tess32: PGM, as I understand it, you have no issues with HOW a behaviour is taught as long as it still produces results and a happy, well adjusted dog at the end?

PGM: that is correct.

Tess32: To me, and maybe others, the HOW is important ethically.

PGM: yes, I understand that, and that is where I differ.

Tess32: PGM, is there a "main" Koehler book out there that I can read?

PGM: the 'Koehler Method of Dog Training' covers novice work. There is also a seperate book for open and utility.

Note, forget about the second part of the book that covers problem behavior. And if you do read the second part make sure you read the author's note in the introduction: "And it must be remembered that the extreme procedures included herein are advised only in those cases where the alternative is as drastic as being 'put to sleep'.

[pgm]

PoodleFan:There are dogs in this world PQM that will NOT tolerate this kind of physical correction.

PGM: did I say there was? Please point out where I made such a claim? This is a particular dog - it is not a dog in general - this is a very experinced trainer, who decided on a particular method to deal with this particular dog. Your comment - Other dog's may submit - assumes that this very experienced trainer cannot read the dog she is working.

Poodlefan: I wonder how the pointer's water work went after that - I'd have thought she'd avoid it like the plague.

PGM: you'd be wrong.

Poodlefan: but the absence of retributive thought doesn't change abuse into correction for me

PGM: your opinion does not count. The only opinion that counts is the dog's. Which is why you'd be wrong to assume she avoided work after that.

[Rusky]

PGM: Hearne trained hundred of dogs thoughout her lifetime, not to mention the thousands of dogs William Koehler trained thoughout his lifetime, from which the method is derived. But now your saying that you know better? that a different dog would have attacked her?

yes I agree with poodlefan completely. I don't care how many dogs they trained between them, these methods are harsh ,cruel and not neccessary.

Dogs dig ok it is what they do, they do it to hide or find food,they like it too. As an owner you need to find a balance of happy dog happy owner.

There are heaps of ways to achieve this rather then the outdated methods used by the early recognised animal trainers. I don't just mean dogs here either.

If she did that to my dog I would shove her head down the hole. Very heroic can bully a dog into doing what it is told cos it is too rudy scared to do anything else.

I am sure PGM you can see that.

I said about 12 pages ago

your dog will look at you

my dog will look at me

only the methods of getting the result differ.

You said you had no idea what I meant, have you yet?

[poodlefan]

PQM:

This is a particular dog - it is not a dog in general - this is a very experinced trainer, who decided on a particular method to deal with this particular dog.

Point taken PQM - she knew the dog. That the trainer know Salty would not bite her is evident from the second quote I posted. She clearly knew how to evaluate dogs well. Knowing the dog would not bite and employing such tactics seems little more than bullying to me regardless of the motivation for the technique. It also seems to me to be taking advantage of the dog's inherent good nature. A different dog would have attacked her.. and she wouldn't have used this method on such a dog. OK - but that doesn't make it right.

I recognise that mine are value laden judgements and that my values differ from yours PQM. I can think of dogs that would have been quite scarred by that kind of treatment and perhaps this is the point you are trying to make about dogs that want to work? That they cope with this kind of treatment and work regardless?

Maybe it comes down to how we view our relationships with our dogs and what we want to achieve with them. What does concern me is that it seems that the dog's actions are only viewed by this trainer as being generated by internal motivation rather than as a reaction to other issues such as stress, boredom or lack of exercise. Maybe I missed that.

Nonetheless, this is not a method I can condone.