leopuppy04 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hi Guys, Thought this was the best place to ask my question. I'm a small scale breeder (have only had one litter, so am I really a breeder ) and I never envisage to own a truck load of dogs given the amount of work, time and effort I put into their training and the multiple disciplines we compete in, as well as living in the suburbs and needing permits etc. To date, I own four dogs, with one permanently living at my parents place. I'm not really one who can re-home either (other than the youngsters), so the dogs stay with me until they cross the bridge. When we bred our first litter it was with the full intent of keeping pick of the litter, which we did, and had the rest pet-homed and de-sexed. I have been thrilled with all of their homes and the way they have developed. Probably at the end of 2011, beginning of 2012 we will be looking at breeding our homebred girl, given all health clearances etc etc. But at this stage (may change in the future) I am NOT planning on keeping a pup from this litter in my house, but perhaps selling on breeders terms/ to a showie/ co-owning etc etc. In your experience, how have people found going down a path like this? Do you find you usually have a falling out? Would you trust a 'pet' owner to responsibly care for your 'pick' at allow you to use for your breeding lines? Is it better to sell to a showie? Would you ONLY do this with a dog/bitch or vice versa? Would love to hear all of your thoughts/ opinions etc. It's the first time I'll be going down this path, and naturally, I'm really not sure how I feel about this unless the dog was going to a well - known friend/ person I could trust! Would love to hear your thoughts... hey - it might end up I keep the puppy after all coz I'm a softie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 My personal opinion: if you're not going to keep the pick of the litter then you're just breeding for the sake of it, so therefore there's no need to breed. Asking a pet owner to care for a pup on breeders terms is a hard thing for them to do - it means they have to keep their pet undesexed which they may not want to and relationships can sour very very easily especially when it comes time to deal with the business side of things. People can get very greedy. Plus there's the whole chance that they may just go off and either stud out their dog or let their bitch have a litter with whoever or whatever without letting you know or consulting about lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 That the thing sol- I certainly understand your sentiments and in an ideal world I'd beable to keep something from every litter I breed but I know that undfortunately this is nit the case. So in part answer to the point you raise - my hope is that I CAN keep a pup from the litter but I cannot house the dog with me. An ideal arrangement would be that I made with my dad and that is that he cares for the dog and I take her to show. But I also understand that I can't expect this from anyone.. I know that others have done what I hope to do and would love to hear how they found the experience. I want to have my hands on said pick pup from any litter I can't keep with me and perhaps get a dog back or use later down the track at stud-so it certainly isn't breeding 'just for the hellof it' perse. I know many breeders who house some males in pet homes and just use the dogs back when they need to... But of course I worry about those idiot owners who then stab you in the back and have used the dog tonsure god knows what.... Certainly not an easy decision for me to make... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Agree with SoL to a point I don't do breeders terms with pet owners, it's simply not worth the dramas. Partnerships with show people - I have just done my first one ever. This is with a dog, personally I think with a bitch there are just too many things that can go wrong. If the dog is a potential trial/agility dog how would you feel seeing someone else training the dog possibly using a method very different to what you like. If a purely show dog, are they a good enough handler/presenter to make you not want to murder them All things to think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I wouldn't even think about doing it with a bitch, just too difficult esp with pet people but I have placed one male in a pet home with the intention of using him at stud. He was placed as an older dog so already health tested but I will only use him myself once more as they tend to play up after they have had a stud and pet people find it difficult to cope with. Generally if I have plans for a dog I keep it, only safe way to do it. In reality if you want to breed your own line you have to either have quite a few dogs or rehome - no other option. Rehoming is easier once you realise other people can and do look after them as well as you do and they will get more individual attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 My personal opinion: if you're not going to keep the pick of the litter then you're just breeding for the sake of it, so therefore there's no need to breed. ........ Sorry but I cannot agree with SOL at all - You would not be breeding for "the sake of it"..... you are trying to develop and learn more about your breed with every litter you have.... whether or not you keep the pup or if you show them or whether they end up in pet homes. You can still keep track and see their development both physically and mentally - there are many pet homes with dogs of equal and sometimes even better examples of the breed than in many breeders kennels. Breeders have to start somewhere - not everyone is in a position to run on 10-15 dogs - And perhaps we should even question "can breeders necessarily do justice to this number of dogs physically and socially? Most breeders have to work full time to afford to continue breeding - where can they find the time to devote to work, family, friends and 15 dogs.....? There are many pet homes who can provide you with the chance of putting a bitch out on breeders terms. Just make sure any terms you place are fair and reasonable to both parties. I have heard of breeders who have lifetime breeding rights on their bitches..... or that the bitch must be shown by the family etc. I have even had a breeder offer a dog to a family for $1500 but that the breeder retains the sole right to decide when where and who with the bitch is to be mated and the breeder owns the offspring..... with no end date to this arrangement..... What the @#$@ is that....... fancy having the cheek to charge top price and yet give no rights to the full time caregiver of the dog. So for what it's worth..... my opinion.... GO FOR IT .... My first bitch was given to me in 1982 on Breeders Terms and I was able to purchase another later on under Partnership - I have also had 3 bitches I have put out on Breeders Terms in the past and currently have a youngster out on a Partnership which is also working well - Generally with pet homes you can find that some may get more involved than they anticipated by showing and competing by their own choice not because of conditions. So it can and does work. If you want more details of how this has worked I am happy to discuss this further. Best of luck in your journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstar Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Not every litter will produce something that you think is of high enough quality to continue on with, but in saying that my aim for doing the breeding in the first place is for something for myself. I am also happy to go co-owner or lease to another breeder, but make sure that you have everything in writing before doing so. I am also happy to give a dog (papers retained by me for breeding with later on) to family or a very close friend. I don't co-own to newbies (never had a show dog before) as I have been bitten before. Leanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Thanks for everyones thoughtful responses . Like I said, re-homing a dog is just not an option for me, unles it was a youngster who wasn't turning out, but even now, ask me to 're-home' my 7mth old pup if she wasn't turning out (thankfully she is!) and I just can't do it! But there is no way you would ever get me to re-home an adult who I have trained, trialled and spent countless hours with. sure I understand that people can, and do, but it's not for me. So that means I then need to look down the path of co-owning / selling a dog on breeders terms. Like alpha bet said, I don't think this makes me a 'careless' breeder because I decide to have a small number of dogs instead and am unable to 'run everything on'. By keeping my numbers small, I'm ensuring that each and every one of my dogs are getting the individual attention and training that they need, which is imperative if you have working dogs in the suburbs I don't see how my goals differ from many of yours, seeing as the aim is to keep the lines open for myself, but as mentioned before, this unfortunately doesn't mean that I can house each of these dogs on my property. If only my parents wanted another dog From what many of you have said, it certainly has established what I already thought and that is that I would certainly feel more comfortable putting the dog into another show home on a co-ownership contract. Certainly a male would be the preferred option to do this with. As others have said, it still might end up that there is nothing worth keeping from the litter itself! I will be in the position to 'run the dog on' until the right home came along, so that certainly is an advantage there. For those that have gone into co-ownership with another showie/ breeder, what type of contract did you sign? My foundation bitch was bought under a co-ownership, although I envisage that this may have been slightly different to what others may have written up seeing as my breeder already knew me as I already had one of her dogs (as a pet). Edited January 10, 2011 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Would you trust a 'pet' owner to responsibly care for your 'pick' at allow you to use for your breeding lines? Is it better to sell to a showie? Would you ONLY do this with a dog/bitch or vice versa? I haved placed dogs with other show people and it's worked out well. I wouldn't place a potential show dog, male or female, with a pet owner. One of the reasons is that I own a breed that can carry a very heavy coat that needs constant maintenance and the vast majority of pet owners have no idea about proper grooming and have neither the time nor the inclination to learn how to groom a long coated dog. The second reason is that it's very hard to find a pet owner who's experienced and trustworthy enough to handle an entire animal, especially if it's a bitch. I am even wary of giving a show puppy to a potential new exhibitor as the last time I did this they went to a couple of shows and then gave up saying they didn't have the time and the next time I heard from them the bitch was desexed. In my experience contracts don't always work either, if a puppy owner finds owning an entire dog too much of a problem, ignores the terms of the contract and desexes the dog what are you going to do about it, sue them? Is it worth the hassles and the expense? The dog is desexed, it's finished as a future show or breeding dog, end of story. So I would recommend that you place your pick puppy into an established show home, although I have no doubt that many will disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstar Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) So I would recommend that you place your pick puppy into an established show home, although I have no doubt that many will disagree. I agree fully. Placing a dog/bitch depends on who it is as to what is in my contracts, but basicly I give the dog to the co-owner. they then show etc the dog and cover all expenses (food/show entries basic vet needs). I pay half of the health testing fees. If it is a bitch, I take 2 pups from the first litter that is sired by a dog that I agree with and then the bitch is signed over fully to the co-owner. If it is a male I take 2 collections or matings and then signed over fully to co-owner. I also have males where the co-owner is happy for them to stay in joint names, can be used by both parties at any time and any outside stud service payments are halved. I can only have a limited number of dogs and have found co-owning to be very valueable in my breeding program. Leanne Edited January 11, 2011 by Ozstar Kennels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Danni Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 We have placed an adult female with pet people on Breeders Terms. She was 17 months when she left us and only after she obtained her A and Z stamps for hips and elbows. We did not charge the family for her and we always stated that we would only have one litter with her. We placed her because she did not like the show ring but was the only female in the litter and we wanted to keep the lines in our breeding programme. Also, we did not bother with much of a "contract" and she was never transferred into their names. We decided that if we could not trust these people to do the right thing, a contract sure as hell would make no difference. So we spent a lot of time with them before she went and maintained excellent contact and visits after she went. We have only bred her last year at almost 4 and they will now desex her. I have now signed all of her paperwork over into their names. They came for visits when she was with us having her litter, played with puppies and then went home! Because she grew up in our home there were no issues with her coming back to us, she slotted into the family like she had never left. :D Her brother is in a pet home in Brisbane, we showed him and put him through Breed Survey and then decided to sell him too (but he is not on Breeders Terms). We do have access to him for breeding if we need it because of our friendship with the family, we spent time with him and his family when we went to Brisbane for the GSD National in 2009. I think that the key to good Breeders Terms is personal relationships and regular communication, but I know plenty of arrangements that have fallen into a screaming heap. My best show bitch ever was given to me on Breeders Terms, but I was already a breeder and showing, so a little different - no written contract there either, just a verbal agreement. My partner in that dog is still one of my closest advisors in the breed and a personal friend because of our partnership in the dog over many years. I would do Breeders Terms again with pet people, BUT ...... I think that realistically, you can ONLY do it with a dog that you are prepared to LOSE. If they are that integral to your breeding programme, you CANNOT take the risk of letting them out on Breeders Terms, they must stay with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 2 months ago my partner & I were given an 11 month old bitch (now 13mo) on breeders terms. We did not pay for her, in return the breeder will take her back for a litter and we are more than happy with that arrangement. It honestly comes down to trust. We have no contract other than the spoken word & our girl is in our name, so we'll sign her back over when the time comes, but the breeder & I have a long standing friendship so we know it wont go pear shaped. In saying that, I've seen the best friendships sour when it comes to money, so tread with caution & only enter into agreements with people you can truly trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulldust Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I would do Breeders Terms again with pet people, BUT ...... I think that realistically, you can ONLY do it with a dog that you are prepared to LOSE. If they are that integral to your breeding programme, you CANNOT take the risk of letting them out on Breeders Terms, they must stay with you. Best advice EVER :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I would do Breeders Terms again with pet people, BUT ...... I think that realistically, you can ONLY do it with a dog that you are prepared to LOSE. If they are that integral to your breeding programme, you CANNOT take the risk of letting them out on Breeders Terms, they must stay with you. Best advice EVER :D I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Don't let any dog you can't afford to lose out of your possession. You have to be prepared that a dog put out on breeders terms will be desexed without your consent, that it's owners could move without telling you or that they baulk at letting you have that litter. If this is the only dog you have to go on with, and losing it will mean the end to that "line", don't let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotwyr Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have had 3 experiences with bitches and other owners. 1st one - my 1st litter. Pick bitch went to a friend and we co-owned (we kept pick dog) 2nd pick went to a hunting home down here in Timaru (we moved here 3 years ago) owner said he would keep her entire "incase" we ever wanted to breed her...... I was doubtful. Pick bitch came back to us 2 years ago and we spayed her and rehomed her - not as good as the bitch we kept from a later repeat mating. 2nd pick bitch - we had a litter from her last year (she was 6) she is a phenominal hunting dog. 8 pups all with hunters! 2nd one - my 3rd litter. Only 1 pup - a bitch. Lives down the road owned by a hunter. As she was the only one of the breeding I asked if they might consider keeping her entire and they agreed (she does have a "not to be bred" endorsement) She is due to have her pups in 2 weeks. I will lift the endorsement with the KC and the owners will get a bitch from the litter plus the spayed mum back ........ I will keep pick dog. 3rd one - my last litter Pick bitch from the 2nd pick above. She is owned by me in the eyes of the KC but lives with a hunter nearby. I didn't keep her because at this stage I have no dog to put to her and the owners had already had a bitch from us who died from a tumour (no due to anything we could avoid but so so devastating). We gave them this pup but with the proviso that I show her to title and have 1 litter..... So it can work..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 So it can work..... It can, if you choose people who understand the importance of bloodlines - like other breeders, serious hunters and the like. Unfortunately most pet only people really can't grasp that. Not their fault, if they were obsessed about bloodlines they'd be breeders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armahani Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I'm in a very similar situation to you (as you know ;)), and have done this with three litters now, with both boys and girls. I'll never have huge numbers here, and can't currently anyway, and all my spaces tend to get taken up by imports ! But I still want to continue on with my breeding program and show my breeding, so that's about the only way I can do it. I know of a number of breeders in Europe in my breed who tend to do it this way as well. Only one of my "on terms" girls has got to the age where I have bred from her though. So the cynics might say "watch this space" My rules, which are just how I prefer things, but you may feel differently: (1) you have to really trust the person, they have to really trust you .... and trust is something you always need to work on .... it's the same as any relationship .... but don't even think about going ahead with it if you have any doubts (2) open communication is essential - you have to be completely up front and discuss every potential scenario (3) if all your puppy buyers are like "family" your co-owned/terms homes have to be like "immediate family" (4) if it is going to go pear-shaped you need to be prepared to walk away and take the loss Ok, my experiences (with the girls, because I guess that's the trickiest situation): Litter 1 - girl placed on terms with a pet home with agreement for her to come back for a litter. I also showed her to her championship (used to turn up at their house to pick her up early in the morning on the way to KCC Park while they where still in their PJs ). I didn't have a relationship with them prior, but we developed a really good friendship over the course of those couple of years, and I still hear from them frequently. I had a really really really good feeling about them from first meeting. I ended up trusting them so much that when she came here for her litter, my import girl (her mother) ended up having a holiday with them at her place to keep them and their boys company! And believe me, she is my life and doesn't go ANYWHERE except to my parent's place :D . Their girl is desexed now, but still goes to my parent's place to stay when her owners go away on holidays (my Dad refuses to let her go anywhere else! :D ). When it was getting close for her to have her litter I was conscious that her owners were getting a bit stressed about it. I thought it was about the whole pregnancy/birth/being away from home thing. Turns out they were concerned about their "little girl" being "violated" by some boy!! They were actually thrilled when for other reasons we ended up doing an AI with her. . She was registered in joint names, but transferred to me prior to being bred, and her owners decided not to keep up their membership so she's actually still in my name. Actually - out of interest - I have a second co-owned girl from that litter who is in the USA, but not planned that way. I have rights for a pup back somewhere down the track, and her owner actually wanted to have both our names on her US registration, which wasn't a big deal for me, but I was happy to do that if it made her happy :D . She even put my kennel name as the pups' "middle name" when this girl had a litter late last year, and the owner of the pick boy from that litter emails me updates and sends me photos (wish I was his breeder though - whooo-eeee he's nice!!). It's really nice - makes me feel like I have this extended family over there :D . Litter 2 - girl placed on terms with a new show / future breeder home. She's registered in joint names. All being well she will have one litter here (probably her second). If for whatever reason she can't have a second that's my loss and my risk. This owner and I developed a relationship over quite a long period before she went there, and are really good friends now. Of course, she's a terrible person and it likely to end up doing the wrong thing!!! (having a bit of fun because she is on this forum and likely to read this ;) ) Litter 3 - pick girl placed on terms with a pet home with agreement for two litters. This one is a totally different. The owner in this case was already a good friend. We'd known each other for years (through the breed). She's not interested in showing or breeding herself, but actually made me the offer for me to do so when she came to me to ask for a puppy. This girl is registered in my name. I show her (and most people around the show ring probably assume she lives with me - but she only does on show weekends ;) ). I've even been given a key to her owner's house if I need to pick her up / drop her home when she's out. She's like the bitch you keep when you don't keep a bitch ! Litter 3 - I ended up unexpectedly putting out another girl from that litter on terms for a number of reasons. She's co-owned with a new show home and shown by them. All being well she'll have a single litter here. Again, I had a really really good feeling about this owner and I'm really happy with the relationship we've built up. I've been really really really lucky!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 A copy of my reply to the thread about using someone else's prefix. It applies to this thread as well because it is how I have managed to keep breeding with very limited numbers: I have done this successfully several times. Several litters under my prefix have been raised by the bitches owners, under my supervision. Some have been bitches I bred and others in the past were main registered bitches (before limit was even thought of) from breeders who were happy for them to do whatever they wanted with the bitch. If the bitch a was good enough and suited one of my dogs I was happy to negotiate breeding a litter with the owners. Personally, I don't like the idea of taking a bitch away from her owner to whelp and raise a litter and some owners love the chance to raise a litter with a lot of help and encouragement. I prefer the owner to take all the risks with their own bitch, including the financial ones, that are all carefully explained first. Then I lease the the bitch on paper, organise the mating, attend the whelping, run back and forth advising on the rearing, find buyers, register the litter, provide puppy notes and find buyers for them. With a couple of people, I have even put my prefix in dual names, so they could have their name on the litter as well. Some people just have the one litter, keep a puppy and put the whole thing down to experience. Others go on to become breeders themselves, get hooked on showing their new baby and end up taking out their own prefix. I have started a few breeders off this way. Most people don't know if they want to be breeders until they have experienced raising a litter. After that they are either keen to become breeders, or never want to do it again. This system has worked fine for me because I only have room for a small number of dogs and don't have time to breed very often. Letting others use my prefix has let me keep the prefix going, allowed me to have some very successful show dogs under my prefix and started off some other now keen exhibitors and breeders. Because my intention is never financial gain and I only do it for litters I believe are worthwhile, I have never had a problem with these arrangements. Surprisingly, I have never needed a written agreement either. So yes, it can work if the bitch owner is prepared for all possible outcomes and is prepared to follow the instructions of whoever is mentoring them and providing the prefix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts