Huge Fight Today Between My 2 Bitches

[indigirl]

Hi, today there was a huge fight between my 2 bitches. Karma a 5yr old entire golden retriver, and Chilli 6yr old desexed kelpie cross. Karma is the alpha bitch, but a relaxed easy going alpha. Chilli can be narky and will deliberatly try to challenge Karma as alpha by growling at her, standing over her etc. Karma will generally ignore her but will step in bodily if Chilli gets narky with any of the other dogs to prevent any fights, by standing between Chillia nd which ever dogs he was growling at.

They have had a few minor tiffs, always when Karma is due to c0me into season and is short on patience. Every single time Chilli has started it by snapping at Karma ir whatever. Its jsut been noise til now tho, I bellow at them and they stop.

Karma is about to come into season and so is moody. Today I watched Chilli go over to her jump up on her hind legs and stand over Karma, then bite her on the back. Karma reacted, they had a huge fight. I could not get them apart. I had a hose a metal bucket, it was truly terrifying I thought Karma was going to kill Chilli. After about 15 mins - 15 LONG minutes, Karma relaxed her grip on Chill for a second due to exhaustion and I was able to tear them apart. I then talked calmly and firmly to both dogs until I knew they were listening - while i kept them both at arms length from each other. Karma backed off and went over to the pool so I grabbed Chilli and threw her over the fence.

Both dogs are now indoors and crated. Chilli is covered in grazes and missing skin, bleeding but not profusly. Cant see any puncture woulds thank god. Karma has a nick on her nose and ear and a few grazes.

These two dogs have been raised together and until now apart from a few minor tiffs they have been the best of mates. Im devastated they have had a fight. I am worried they will never be ale to be together again.

Karma is not an aggressive dog, she is gentle and protective of all my other dogs. When she is not coming into season she tolerates Chilli's narkiness and doesnt react beyond a growl. However today she did not back down when Chilli challenged her.

Do you think that they can be trusted in the future? Or is it pretty much set now that they will always fight if left together? Whilst neither dog is seriously injured the intent appeared deadly. This was no game. Im pretty certain they were trying to maim each other.

HELP!!

[Staff'n'Toller]

Your Kelpie will need anti-biotics, some pain relief might have been nice for her tonight too.

Please take her to the Vet first thing tomorrow.

[Tapferhund]

Hi, today there was a huge fight between my 2 bitches. Karma a 5yr old entire golden retriver, and Chilli 6yr old desexed kelpie cross. Karma is the alpha bitch, but a relaxed easy going alpha. Chilli can be narky and will deliberatly try to challenge Karma as alpha by growling at her, standing over her etc. Karma will generally ignore her but will step in bodily if Chilli gets narky with any of the other dogs to prevent any fights, by standing between Chillia nd which ever dogs he was growling at.

They have had a few minor tiffs, always when Karma is due to c0me into season and is short on patience. Every single time Chilli has started it by snapping at Karma ir whatever. Its jsut been noise til now tho, I bellow at them and they stop.

Karma is about to come into season and so is moody. Today I watched Chilli go over to her jump up on her hind legs and stand over Karma, then bite her on the back. Karma reacted, they had a huge fight. I could not get them apart. I had a hose a metal bucket, it was truly terrifying I thought Karma was going to kill Chilli. After about 15 mins - 15 LONG minutes, Karma relaxed her grip on Chill for a second due to exhaustion and I was able to tear them apart. I then talked calmly and firmly to both dogs until I knew they were listening - while i kept them both at arms length from each other. Karma backed off and went over to the pool so I grabbed Chilli and threw her over the fence.

Both dogs are now indoors and crated. Chilli is covered in grazes and missing skin, bleeding but not profusly. Cant see any puncture woulds thank god. Karma has a nick on her nose and ear and a few grazes.

These two dogs have been raised together and until now apart from a few minor tiffs they have been the best of mates. Im devastated they have had a fight. I am worried they will never be ale to be together again.

Karma is not an aggressive dog, she is gentle and protective of all my other dogs. When she is not coming into season she tolerates Chilli's narkiness and doesnt react beyond a growl. However today she did not back down when Chilli challenged her.

Do you think that they can be trusted in the future? Or is it pretty much set now that they will always fight if left together? Whilst neither dog is seriously injured the intent appeared deadly. This was no game. Im pretty certain they were trying to maim each other.

HELP!!

How awful for you and no they could never be trusted if left together. Once bitches have fought they generally hate each other for life.

[ish]

Do you think that they can be trusted in the future?

Nope - in my experience, the 2nd time they fight is much more serious than the first

[indigirl]

Your Kelpie will need anti-biotics, some pain relief might have been nice for her tonight too.

Please take her to the Vet first thing tomorrow.

Ive had a good look at Chilli now that im calmer, she has grazes, not cuts. What I thought was bleeding was blood coming up to the surface of the skin. She is def going to have some bruising. No puncture wounds that I can see on either dog. Will see how she is in the morning. She scoffed her dinner down and seems to be happy enough. Will ph vet in the morning and see if he thinks they need antibiotics. Im not keen on taking any of my animals to the vet unless they are at deaths door at the moment, as right now we have a huge outbreak of parvo here. Its some strain of parvo thats killing dogs within 24hrs. From healthy to dead in one day.

I was very distressed when I checked the dogs earlier and we were also all dripping wet. I was shaking pretty badly. Karma nicked her muzzle on the fence i think, its not a bite mark, they were fighting against the wire fence at one point and its got a few pointy bits where its been repaired. Its like a thin scrape, and its broken her skin. She also has a few red patches of skin where she will have some bruising.

Am hunting up some pain relief for Chilli now,pretty sure I have something here.

[indigirl]

Karma is to be mated this season. If I thought it would fix the problem I would consider desexing her after shes weaned her litter.

I am ok with keeping the dogs apart for say 3 or 4 months, but I dont want to live that way long term. While i do breed, all my dogs are also pets and live in the house with me and not in kennels. If Karma and Chilli cannot peacefully coexist then Chilli will probably have to be PTS as she is not a good candidate for rehoming.

I feel sick about whats happened and cant believe that after 5yrs of living together they suddenly had a huge fight.

[Cosmolo]

I'm really sorry to hear you find yourself in this situation- its not a good position to be in at all.

Is it really that sudden though? It sounds as though the tension has been building and Karma had had enough? Do you have a behaviourist in your area at all? There are lots of things you can do to improve the situation, although like others, i would likely never leave them alone together.

[OSoSwift]

In my limited experience once they have had a fight it will intesifiy. Mine got to the point they would growl if they walk into the house bit of thier dog runs at the same time. I put a tarp 3/4 of the way along the middle panel.

You could try ringing a behaviouralist.

[Tarmons]

I think that you had better get used to the idea that your two bitches can never be trusted to be left together again. Once a bitch fight occurs that's it. They hate each other for life and the next fight will be worse than the first.

[Lablover]

Karma is about to come into season and so is moody. Today I watched Chilli go over to her jump up on her hind legs and stand over Karma, then bite her on the back. Karma reacted, they had a huge fight.

Typical dog behavior. Experienced studs would understand (with no book) I would keep them seperated until end of season.

What were you doing while observing this behavior?

[Keira&Phoenix]

HI Indie,

I don't think it is necessarily as bad as all that. My bitch Keira 3yo and my sisters bitch Gidget 6yo approx (both desexed) have been quarreling ever since we moved here and it got nasty a few months ago they had several scrapes and for a while it was hard to feel like we could trust them together again. I had to supervise a lot afterwards and keep an eye on things when they were together and I felt nervous but after a time, patience and some stern words everything is fine and although they are not friends and don't spend anytime together they don't get in each others way and they haven't had any dramas since, they can be left alone outside together and nothing happens.

Every dog is different and it is a case of feeling it out with your dogs to see how they go. They do need to be supervised until you can trust them again and its worth getting a behaviorist in if you don't feel confident enough to do it yourself. Good luck and don't despair yet, I know its horrible to see that happen but hopefully things will calm down.

[indigirl]

Cosmolo I live in Broken Hill. No behaviourists here.

You are right, Karma had just had enough. Chilli is forever having little snipes at her, shes very territorial and quick to snarl at Karma. Ive never once, in 5 yrs, seen Karma instigate a clash with Chilli.

Chill isnt a horrible dog, shes sweet and playful but very high strung. She has gotten into a few fights with friend's bitches over the yrs as a result of her snapping at them and the other dog then retaliates. I would worry about rehoming her as she has that narky side to her temperament. I dont think you could ever trust her not to snap at another dog. She is good with ppl and her idea of heaven is playing fetch. Ive had her since she was 12 weeks old, shes done some obedience and is generally very well behaved. However a dog that cant be trusted with other dogs is not usually a good candidate for rehoming.

I think I would always be fearful they would have another fight, that the first time Chilli had another go at Karma it would be on again. I am physically and emotionally drained from todays events and am probably not thinking clearly.

[tdierikx]

I can attest to the escalation of nastiness over time with 2 bitches. My 2 had 4 fights in 2.5 years - were absolutely fine with each other and best buddies in between said fights. Both are also perfectly fine with all my foster pups, and behave perfectly when out in public places - even when challenged by other dogs. They just don't do being challenged by each other. My Lab would kill my Rotti/Pittie if there was no-one to "referee" their fight - there is no way that I'm physically capable of separating them when they decide to fight.

The last fight happened to have the police attend (they were across the road for another matter, and heard me yelling at the dogs) - 2.5 cans of capsicum spray, batons, and boots, nothing was getting those 2 apart. They finally stopped due to exhaustion, and we could get them to the vet... $1400 (discount rate no less) later, my 2 girls are not ever going to run together again...

My girls are 11 and 5 - both alpha - and have adjusted just fine to being separated. It is worth the peace of mind to keep them that way, trust me!

T.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Im not keen on taking any of my animals to the vet unless they are at deaths door at the moment, as right now we have a huge outbreak of parvo here. Its some strain of parvo thats killing dogs within 24hrs. From healthy to dead in one day.

If your dogs are vaccinated and 5 & 6 years old, this isn't a reason not to take the Kelpie to the vet. The Golden may have made a mess of the muscle under the skin and not all puncture wounds are easy to find. I would rather pony up for some prophylactic antibiotics, than go through the hassle and expense of cleaning up an abscess.

As for the long term prospects, without skilled intervention from someone experienced in dealing with aggression, my guess is you'll have to run them separately.

[indigirl]

Karma is about to come into season and so is moody. Today I watched Chilli go over to her jump up on her hind legs and stand over Karma, then bite her on the back. Karma reacted, they had a huge fight.

Typical dog behavior. Experienced studs would understand (with no book) I would keep them seperated until end of season.

What were you doing while observing this behavior?

I went to the back door to tell my foster iggy to be quiet as he was barking. My back yard is divided into seperate yards, the bigger dogs in one yard, the iggies in another, plus a puppy yard. I looked over and saw what Chilli did, I called out to tell Chill to knock it off as she went up on her hind legs to stand over Karma. I walked out the back door but before i could get into the big dog yard the fight broke out. I ran in there grabbed the hose and tried to break them up and couldn't.

[indigirl]

Im not keen on taking any of my animals to the vet unless they are at deaths door at the moment, as right now we have a huge outbreak of parvo here. Its some strain of parvo thats killing dogs within 24hrs. From healthy to dead in one day.

If your dogs are vaccinated and 5 & 6 years old, this isn't a reason not to take the Kelpie to the vet. The Golden may have made a mess of the muscle under the skin and not all puncture wounds are easy to find. I would rather pony up for some prophylactic antibiotics, than go through the hassle and expense of cleaning up an abscess.

As for the long term prospects, without skilled intervention from someone experienced in dealing with aggression, my guess is you'll have to run them separately.

I plan to phone the vet when he opens this morning. Of course my adult dogs are fully vaccd, but if the dogs are seen by the vet it will be in my car, they are NOT going into the vet surgery. I have two 12 week old iggy puppies at home that have only had one vacc. If an adult dog comes into contact with the virus they can shed it for several weeks and show no clinical symptoms. I am not willing to risk it. Sorry but thats not something I am willing to compromise on unless its a life or death situation.

I will ask the vet re antibiotics etc and will give them whatever he thinks they need.

[cmkelpie]

It is an awful situation to be in, I have been there and it was so difficult. You HAVE to keep them apart. If one ends up killing the other you will never forgive yourself Especially with pups on the way Karma will most likely become even more snappy.

[WreckitWhippet]

Build another yard or find somewhere to seperate them. Next time you may not be home to sort it out.

[WreckitWhippet]

It is an awful situation to be in, I have been there and it was so difficult. You HAVE to keep them apart. If one ends up killing the other you will never forgive yourself Especially with pups on the way Karma will most likely become even more snappy.

Where did that come from ?

[redangel]

My 2 bitches will only fight if one or the other is in season. As in the case of yours, one was in season yes? Other times they reside together happily, they even share their food bowls. Knowing this they are separated when seasons occur. I was devastated as you were, ive never had any dogs fight (Ive had up to 6 bitch/dog combinations) at once. It was a first for me. All might not be as bad...but as I see above, maybe Ive just been lucky in my situation.