Registered Breeders

[Rebanne]

And I can assure you if I was a registered breeder doing the right thing I would want to be part of an org which was not associated IN ANY WAY with puppy farms or Byb's. I would be working very hard to make sure that I could distinguish myself as the breeder doing the right thing by dogs and pups from Puppy farmers/bybs

I do, do the right thing, I can sleep straight in bed at night. Can't control anyone that might have lied and cheated to gain entry to an organisations. All organisations have bad apples, fact of life. No way any one organisation can be 100% sure all their members are doing the right thing.

[Sheridan]

I dont know of many groups who have lists of their members made public unless they have opted to advertise.Why not ask the ANKC why they dont make their member lists public so people can find them when looking for a puppy. Id say its the same reasons we dont. Just because you're a member of a group doesnt mean we are like commercial breeders who always have puppies available and we want a constant stream of people looking for puppies we dont have you know.

Marketing tip: don't treat questions as an attack but rather a chance to educate potential recruits.

[Steve]

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

Which then brings us back to the question of how does one find a good breeder, doesn't it. And really, do you actually know the practices of each of those 330 members? How would you recommend one breeder over another?

Before anyone gets into the MDBA as a breeder member, a rescue member, or a professional member they have to agree to a code of conduct and demonstrate they understand what they are agreeing to and we screen them. They have to tell us their breeding philosophies, what they do, their goals, their challenges etc. We take references from their puppy and dog buyers, we give their buyers free membership and we get to know the people they have sold puppies to. This week Ive spoken with 8 puppy buyers 6 different breeds for another reason who have told me loud and clear what they think of their breeders and sung their praises and were eager to tell me about the breeder's practices. Every suggestion of something not quite right is looked into and every complaint is investigated [ and we have a private investigator on retainer]. We have refused entry to some , we have recommended some go and do our Introduction to Canine breeding - in particular the ethics unit and come back if they think they would still like to join.

We have removed 3 breeders from our membership and one rescue group and one professional member.

So I know their practices as much as it is possible for me or anyone to know their practices and if I find out Im wrong they are gone. I dont recommend one MDBA breeder over another one MDBA rescue group or one MDBA professional member over any other I give the options and let the buyer/ client decide because if I wasnt prepared to recommend them equally they wouldnt be there.

[Steve]

I dont know of many groups who have lists of their members made public unless they have opted to advertise.Why not ask the ANKC why they dont make their member lists public so people can find them when looking for a puppy. Id say its the same reasons we dont. Just because you're a member of a group doesnt mean we are like commercial breeders who always have puppies available and we want a constant stream of people looking for puppies we dont have you know.

Marketing tip: don't treat questions as an attack but rather a chance to educate potential recruits.

I didnt treat that question as an attack and Im very sorry if it sounded as if I did.

[Staranais]

I do think it's a good idea, Steve. I don't want to try to tell you your business. But I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a page on the MDBA website that:

1. Explains the COE really quickly & simply & why this is good for puppy buyers

2. Lists all MDBA breeders prefixes & if possible gives links to websites (even if doesn't give direct contact details of breeders)

3. Is really easy for people to find & understand if they know nothing about dogs

[griff]

If people ask me " Where can I get a ------ Pup from "

I point them towards the Breed Club and DOL breed pages .

[Annie99]

In the end, I really pity the poor dogs, esp those who spit out puppies until they can no more, with no laws to protect them and dog bodies/canine councils seemingly in disarray.

There are laws, we may not think them well enough enforced or comprehensive enough, but there are laws. Better enforcement of the exisiting laws would probably achieve a great deal.

And dog bodies/canine councils are not necessarily in disarray. They are just not constituted for the purposes you would like them to be. Canine bodies are not regulatory bodies, they are more the the equivalent of sporting or, for the non-ANKC bodies, industry associations.

I am not saying there isn't a problem - there are several different problems which all get muddled together in these threads - but generalisations that are wrong only cloud the issues.

Hi Diva

Can you please point me to the laws that protect puppies in Puppy Farms in Victoria specifically?

Thank you

I have done a lot of research into the issue and all the states are regulated differently.

[Rebanne]

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

That's a good question. Referring people to the MDBA website seems like it should be a good resource to help people find good breeders, if all the member breeders are listed?

wasn't going to reply to this but:

I joined MDBA years ago, paid a fee etc. I have however not paid a renewal for the last 3 or 4 years, nor received a renewal notice. I do not consider my self a member yet they still seem to do so as I am still getting emails from both the MDBA and Pacers (and I have never been a member of them)

when the topic, since deleted, about the new MDBA's registery in the news thread arose, I said I wouldn't be joining, Steve replied but I was already a member of the MDBA. I said the same as I am saying here. I have not rejoined for some years. Thread was deleted before I could find out if I am being counted or not. ;)

[Erny]

If people ask me " Where can I get a ------ Pup from "

I point them towards the Breed Club and DOL breed pages .

But that doesn't necessarily mean that those people are going to end up buying from a breeder who checks all the boxes for breeding good and rearing healthy dogs and also for being a supportive breeder.

On another note, I see MDBA as being certainly more supportive and more pro-active FOR (not yelling) breeders as well, when it comes to things such as stupid and unfavourable laws. Where is ANKC and/or your State Body of which you are a member when it has come to the many laws that have already made things difficult?

[Annie99]

I dont know of many groups who have lists of their members made public unless they have opted to advertise.Why not ask the ANKC why they dont make their member lists public so people can find them when looking for a puppy. Id say its the same reasons we dont. Just because you're a member of a group doesnt mean we are like commercial breeders who always have puppies available and we want a constant stream of people looking for puppies we dont have you know.

I don't see why they all don't have public listings. Just because you are a public listing does not mean you have pups or are advertising. It is just a public list of members.

I am a member of organisations and the lists are public. I have nothing to hide. And just because you are on a public list does not mean people are going to ring you day and night or bombard you with emails. It is just a public list. That is all.

Public lists are not the same as advertising

[Annie99]

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

Which then brings us back to the question of how does one find a good breeder, doesn't it. And really, do you actually know the practices of each of those 330 members? How would you recommend one breeder over another?

Exactly. And what does a Registered breeder really mean?

[Dogsfevr]

What i am curious is when the MDBA start creating there own breed standards then what happens to the general public in deciding which one is right??

Then when you add this how are the public suppose to decide who is right

Foundation Registry

The purpose of the Foundation Registry is for new breeds which are in an

early developmental stage and in which record keeping is vital to the

history of the breed. The registration of these breeds will provide an

accurate, precise chronicle of the breed's progress and development, and may

prove or disprove its future acceptance as a viable, healthy breed as well

as providing analysis of any genetic problems inherent in a particular

breeding program.

Use of both hybrid crosses and outcrosses to dogs of unknown or unregistered

parentage is permitted. There are no limitations or restrictions on the

breeding programs for these breeds. Breed standards will not be accepted

unless the welfare aspects are addressed as well as all others.

So does them mean you can be a Schnnodle(DDB) breeder ?? & recognized with the MDBA

[ozjen]

And I can assure you if I was a registered breeder doing the right thing I would want to be part of an org which was not associated IN ANY WAY with puppy farms or Byb's. I would be working very hard to make sure that I could distinguish mysel

f as the breeder doing the right thing by dogs and pups from Puppy farmers/bybs

And the way to do that is to distinguish yourself from them by your words and actions. Not by flashy websites, by knowledge, care for your breed, knowledge of your breed, consideration and duty of care to any prospective buyers, and ongoing service and consideration.

There are thousands of breeders who do that, and do it well. Whatever organisation they belonged to, they would behave in exactly the same way. ;)

And thank dog for every single one of them, we are so lucky to have them.

Well said as always Jed. ;)

Remember too, if you are a member of the law society, you are probably not happy with some of the other members. A vet I know is just itching to report a dodgy vet she knows to the Veterinary Registration Board .. every time you collect a class of people, you collect the saints, the average, the ordinary and the dodgy.

Car dealers? Oh, yes, they are really dodgy. I needed a new (used) car. From another state, sight unseen, I bought a car from a motor dealer I know. I have bought and paid for it, I haven't seen it, but when I go home, I know that car will do what I want. I have bought half a dozen cars from the same person .... that's why people who want another dog go back to the same breeder, or ask that breeder to recommend someone.

And that's why I get heaps of PMs asking me to recommend a breeder.

[Steve]

I do think it's a good idea, Steve. I don't want to try to tell you your business. But I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a page on the MDBA website that:

1. Explains the COE really quickly & simply & why this is good for puppy buyers

2. Lists all MDBA breeders prefixes & if possible gives links to websites (even if doesn't give direct contact details of breeders)

3. Is really easy for people to find & understand if they know nothing about dogs

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type.

The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we.

the third part is also being done now.

[Annie99]

I do think it's a good idea, Steve. I don't want to try to tell you your business. But I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a page on the MDBA website that:

1. Explains the COE really quickly & simply & why this is good for puppy buyers

2. Lists all MDBA breeders prefixes & if possible gives links to websites (even if doesn't give direct contact details of breeders)

3. Is really easy for people to find & understand if they know nothing about dogs

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type.

The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we.

the third part is also being done now.

Still can't understand why 2 is a problem.

People make snide remarks etc about everyone/everything.

If you are confident and strong in yourself such remarks do not matter.

It is showing a lack of transparency not showing breeder lists

[Staranais]

I do think it's a good idea, Steve. I don't want to try to tell you your business. But I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a page on the MDBA website that:

1. Explains the COE really quickly & simply & why this is good for puppy buyers

2. Lists all MDBA breeders prefixes & if possible gives links to websites (even if doesn't give direct contact details of breeders)

3. Is really easy for people to find & understand if they know nothing about dogs

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type.

The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we.

the third part is also being done now.

Great! That's a pity about the second part. Makes it easier for new people to find a breeder if they're all listed on line.

I figure lots of people get suckered in by flash websites from puppy farmers & unscrupulous breeders, such websites are marketing tools that make these breeders look professional & friendly & make them seem really approachable - pity you can't fight fire with fire by doing the same thing.

[Rebanne]

Exactly. And what does a Registered breeder really mean?

Annie99, imo, it all comes back to the buyer doing their research, because there is no easy way to sort out the good from the bad. Both sellers and buyers alike can cheat and lie, both sellers and buyers alike can get bitten on the bum by the "ethics" of the other person. It cuts both ways. There are pages on websites, advising puppy buyers what to look for in a good ethical breeder, there are pages listing bad buyers and what names/emails they are known to use. I was caught, many, many years ago by buying from a registered person who turned out to be a backyard breeder, no fancy internet sites back then.

[Annie99]

I do think it's a good idea, Steve. I don't want to try to tell you your business. But I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a page on the MDBA website that:

1. Explains the COE really quickly & simply & why this is good for puppy buyers

2. Lists all MDBA breeders prefixes & if possible gives links to websites (even if doesn't give direct contact details of breeders)

3. Is really easy for people to find & understand if they know nothing about dogs

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type.

The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we.

the third part is also being done now.

Great! That's a pity about the second part. Makes it easier for new people to find a breeder if they're all listed on line.

I figure lots of people get suckered in by flash websites from puppy farmers & unscrupulous breeders, such websites are marketing tools that make these breeders look professional & friendly & make them seem really approachable - pity you can't fight fire with fire by doing the same thing.

Exactly what I think as well.

;) ;)

[mita]

If people ask me " Where can I get a ------ Pup from "

I point them towards the Breed Club and DOL breed pages .

Way back at time of getting our first p/b Tibetan Spaniel, I knew no registered breeders in that area. I phoned Dogs Qld (then QCCC), asked for a list of breeders with contact numbers. They gave them to me & I started calling around. An interesting & satisfying experience. When time was arranged to talk, each breeder gave me heaps of information (on the phone &/or at a dog show to which they'd invited me). I was also well aware they were looking for an assessment of me as a pet owner. Full marks to them for doing that! It went from that point, to finally getting a superb little dog from one breeder.

Since then, I've become even more acquainted with the Victorian & NSW Tibbie breed clubs, as well as the International site where people (registered breeders, owners & potential owners) can talk with each other. This has led to knowing, very well, a number of breeders. The overwhelming majority I have the greatest respect for.

Now, the DOL purebred community pages give superb support for people looking for purebred pets. I'm impressed with the entries from many tibbie breeders because they reflect knowledge & good practice about what are the the most important factors which go into raising a true companion dog.

These are the routes I recommend to people looking for a Tibbie. If they track through what is a very accessible & generally welcoming route, they'll be led to some excellent registered breeders & to great little dogs.

Edited January 9, 2011 by mita

[Rebanne]

I figure lots of people get suckered in by flash websites from puppy farmers & unscrupulous breeders, such websites are marketing tools that make these breeders look professional & friendly & make them seem really approachable - pity you can't fight fire with fire by doing the same thing.

not everyone with a flash website is unscrupulous, lots of very fine breeders like having very nice websites. Nothing wrong with that. If I had the skills and the time mine would be a lot flashier ;)