Registered Breeders

[Sheridan]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Well, you have to remember that the MDBA is an eponymous title.

[Monah]

I've been blessed to have wonderful , supportive, caring breeders in a very large variety of breeds, not one issue with any of them.

I think it goes both ways though, buyers also need to do the right thing too.

The one I rang today about the puppy in the paper could not have cared less about the home I was giving it when I rang.

Only interested in the $$$.

Also advertises on the net.

Could not care less about the buyer, just the cash.

I've never used a breeder who has advertised in a paper. Not to say this is wrong in any way at all, it just is not for me. When I get a pup I set up a relationship first. In the case of my wolfhounds, lakelands, spinone,vizsla, giant schnauzers and irish water spaniels, this has often been years before. I'm not a 'I want it now' person, I research immensely. I've been after another breed for over 6 years, rare in aust, 2 here, so I have been in contact with the perons who has them, visited interstate, contact with OS breeders etc. for all that time.

The buyer needs to put on effort too, you get what you get if a 5 minute phone call is the 'effort'. What did you say to this breeder re their no care attitude?

It's important to me to choose a breeder as I would a friend. I have had relationships with some breeders for 42 years, others more recent. I cannot control how breeders operate, but I certainly can control who I deal with. So i've never had a bad experience at all. When a person has a relationship and does their research properly, things sould go very smoothly, If you are happy to hit and miss, be lazy etc., you have to take some responsibility for lack of communication. If there are bad experiences buyers need to put it behind them and do things differently next time. There are always going to be good and bad in every single area of life, we have to choose wisely.

When I was showing years ago there were so many dogs/breeds etc. that you rarely see now, either at all or in numbers. And they could be bred in suburbia without any issues, run off lead in many places etc. a different world. It's hard enough owning a pet now, breeding is very difficult, and the cost!!

So expensive to import too and australia is so far away, we need new blood badly.

[Monah]

I have been reading this whole thread from the start to the end, just hanging to suggest the same jolly thing as Benshiva!!!!

Why can't the ANKC do a decent ad campaign

I really wish it was like the old days, just under the ANKC rather than different State bodies, each State seems to have their own set of rules on varying things, I think it should just be one governing body and while they're at it ....... have the admin staff at least know one end of dog from the other as opposed to the clerks they have that don't even own dogs let alone be in the Show World. But, alas, gone are the days of volunteers too

I've rung a body in QLD a few times and got people ont he phone who have not even known certain breeds exist..Oh for the good old days...

[Sheridan]

I've rung a body in QLD a few times and got people ont he phone who have not even known certain breeds exist..Oh for the good old days...

I was looking for a breeder a couple of years ago and rang Dogs NSW. The person who took my call asked me what group the kerry blue terrier was in. I said, after a fairly longish pause, 'The terrier group.'

[Annie99]

Yes that is a problem but its not this problem. This problem happened because someone had heard about registered breeders and wanted to do the "right thing" and purchase a puppy from a registered breeder. The registered breeder turned out to be a registered breeder with another group who this person had deliberately tried to avoid.She picked up the inconsistencies and came here to ask about reporting them because they were breaching the code of conduct but they werent breaching their code of conduct.

So its a different group of people - this one wants to buy from a registered breeder because they are trying to follow advice given them by people who have told them the best place to go for a pup is to a registered breeder.Your people have not given a hoot about the advice and havent cared if the breeder was registered or not - or perhaps they did and got sucked in by the lingo. Different problem - different solution.

Yes. I very much agree with this Steve. I think some people do try but it is just way too complicated. Especially for working people who are time poor.

Also the pet shops have slick sites and tell people that everything they are doing is legal (never mind the ethics of what they are doing) ETHICS AND LEGALATIES are not the same. Not shouting Steve either (you are right I use CAPs for emphasis). I prefer it if people do it. Easier to get the point

[Annie99]

My point is though, that you can label things as much as you want, and define things as much as you want - but its all pointless. People don't get 'confused' by registered vs registered - they don't care!!

There may be a section of the community that don't care but others do care.

And for those that do care, it should be made simpler, much simpler!

[Annie99]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. I felt sorry for Annie who had a clear idea of what the term meant and got clobbered - could have been worse she may have purchased the dog and probably would have if she didnt at least have a general idea of what she felt was behaviour from the breeder she didnt want to shop with.

Don't worry Steve. I really had no intention of purchasing the puppy. I am a strong believer and supporter of the efforts of OSCARS LAW (despite being subjected to some rather nasty politics) and also the RSPCA campaign to stop puppy farms.

I thought that as a REGISTERED BREEDER (sorry for caps, I know you know I use them for emphasis) I could expose her for what she was doing and therefore she could not say that she is a Registered breeder - or try and ride on the good name of that.

I have made Oscars Law mob aware of the breeder so that is another one they can add to their very long list.

There was much in the discussion I had with the woman to suggest she was very dodgy and definitley not acting in the best interests of the pups.

I will PM you a link to her site, Steve.

[Paptacular!]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group.

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

[Gayle.]

;) ;)

I've rung a body in QLD a few times and got people ont he phone who have not even known certain breeds exist..Oh for the good old days...

I was looking for a breeder a couple of years ago and rang Dogs NSW. The person who took my call asked me what group the kerry blue terrier was in. I said, after a fairly longish pause, 'The terrier group.'

They probably employ people for their admin skills, not their dog knowledge. But that' s not such a stupid question when the Tibetan Terrier is in the non-sporting group, not the terrier group. And the Australian Silky terrier and Yorkshire terriers are in the toy group, not the terrier group.

And the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is in the toy group also, and not in the gundog group with the other spaniels.

[Sheridan]

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

Steve said in response to my question that they have 330 breeder members but given they don't advertise, despite taking the trouble of joining, it seems to be difficult finding a member anyway.

[Steve]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group.

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

[Monah]

;) ;)

I've rung a body in QLD a few times and got people ont he phone who have not even known certain breeds exist..Oh for the good old days...

I was looking for a breeder a couple of years ago and rang Dogs NSW. The person who took my call asked me what group the kerry blue terrier was in. I said, after a fairly longish pause, 'The terrier group.'

They probably employ people for their admin skills, not their dog knowledge. But that' s not such a stupid question when the Tibetan Terrier is in the non-sporting group, not the terrier group. And the Australian Silky terrier and Yorkshire terriers are in the toy group, not the terrier group.

And the Cavalier King Charles spaniel is in the toy group also, and not in the gundog group with the other spaniels.

While I completely understand this re admin skills, it is part of a persons job to be informed if they are responsible for information. It's not hard to know, there are hundreds of breed books and info out there in various places and I'm sure the office itself would have the information. It appears really unprofessional when you ring an org and the person knows nothing. Not a 'good look' at all. The lack of knowledge could easily put those who are 'newbies' right off the org and registered people when they are asking for info and the organisation does not know the answers.

:D

[Annie99]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group.

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

OK

Well as you would all know from my post yesterday, I am new to all of this.

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

In the end, I really pity the poor dogs, esp those who spit out puppies until they can no more, with no laws to protect them and dog bodies/canine councils seemingly in disarray.

[Staranais]

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

That's a good question. Referring people to the MDBA website seems like it should be a good resource to help people find good breeders, if all the member breeders are listed?

[Monah]

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

That's a good question. Referring people to the MDBA website seems like it should be a good resource to help people find good breeders, if all the member breeders are listed?

And it would also greatly help new and even more experienced people if the people in various organisations could supply the relative info when asked. I fell this lack of info and professionalism is losing the battle for buyers to use reg breeders. It gets all too hard. I'm sure there must be 'dog' experts out there who also have admin and IT skills. (and very importantly, people skills)

Once a cliennt, customer, interested party is put off, it's extremely hard to ever get them back. So that's another person who tells 10 friends etc. not to bother trying to go reg. breeder. The people on the front line really need to be top class and behave as you would in any 'business'.

[Paptacular!]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group.

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

My apologies on mucking up the numbers. But by this token, you will be directing people towards non-MDBA members which you said in this sentence I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway you wouldn't do?

This whole thing confuses me.

[Sheridan]

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

Which then brings us back to the question of how does one find a good breeder, doesn't it. And really, do you actually know the practices of each of those 330 members? How would you recommend one breeder over another?

[Diva]

In the end, I really pity the poor dogs, esp those who spit out puppies until they can no more, with no laws to protect them and dog bodies/canine councils seemingly in disarray.

There are laws, we may not think them well enough enforced or comprehensive enough, but there are laws. Better enforcement of the exisiting laws would probably achieve a great deal.

And dog bodies/canine councils are not necessarily in disarray. They are just not constituted for the purposes you would like them to be. Canine bodies are not regulatory bodies, they are more the the equivalent of sporting or, for the non-ANKC bodies, industry associations.

I am not saying there isn't a problem - there are several different problems which all get muddled together in these threads - but generalisations that are wrong only cloud the issues.

[Steve]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group.

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

OK

Well as you would all know from my post yesterday, I am new to all of this.

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

In the end, I really pity the poor dogs, esp those who spit out puppies until they can no more, with no laws to protect them and dog bodies/canine councils seemingly in disarray.

I dont know of many groups who have lists of their members made public unless they have opted to advertise.Why not ask the ANKC why they dont make their member lists public so people can find them when looking for a puppy. Id say its the same reasons we dont. Just because you're a member of a group doesnt mean we are like commercial breeders who always have puppies available and we want a constant stream of people looking for puppies we dont have you know.

[Steve]

It's hard since it's all so grey.

If there was concrete published proof that registered dogs are on average substantially healthier than non-ANKC registered dogs (which as far as I'm aware, there isn't), or if all registered breeders were invariably ethical and all unregistered breeders were horrible to their dogs (which isn't the case), then it would be easy to just say "go find an ANKC registered breeder" to anyone who is interested in an ANKC-breed pet.

Saying "go find a MDBA member breeder" gets rid of that issue I suppose, since all MDBA members are (theoretically at least!) held and policed to a high standard. However, a breeder can be very ethical and not be a MDBA member, so that advice cuts a lot of good breeders out of consideration.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group.

From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct?

If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them?

'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?'

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association.

Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

My apologies on mucking up the numbers. But by this token, you will be directing people towards non-MDBA members which you said in this sentence I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway you wouldn't do?

This whole thing confuses me.

Thats because you only picked up the bolded bit and over looked the next sentence - I recommend registered purebred breeders as a general preferrable group but I dont recommend any breeder by name or in particular unless they are an MDBA member. Im assuming you wouldn't recommend a breeder unless you were pretty confident of what they were doing either - I just use the fact that we have screened them and keep tabs on them as my yard stick. Dont know what the big deal is or why thats a problem.