Jaxx'sBuddy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippets Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them And you think an ethical ANKC breeder would? Selling to a pet shop wouldn't even enter the equation for the majority of ethical ANKC breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them just because something is allowed does not mean people take advantage of it, I'd wager most ANKC breeders don't sell to PIAA petshops due to their own personal ethics, they too then have have one less point of sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie99 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 indeed but one organisation tells its members that they can sell to PIAA pet shops and the other doesn't so the one who won;t allow puppy sales to pet shops will have consequences for members who do so, the other obviously wont as it is allowable.i prefer a blanket no pet shop sales to sales to certain pet shops being allowable If the org that say no to pet shop selling ever finds out about it, then there might be consequences. Whose going to tell them? Not the person being unethical, that's for sure. i agree with you rebanne but for me it's about the ethos of the organisation and what the organisation sees as acceptable rather than whether the members are 100% compliant Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. Sounds like MDBA has higher ethics to me. Not selling to pet shops = Have you actually read what the Code of ethics are????? Make it easier <H4 style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify">MDBA Breeders Code of Conduct</H4> At all times I will have a goal of breeding to improve, restore or develop our breeds via a process of selection over successive generations and, before breeding a litter, I will give serious and equal consideration to construction, temperament, health and soundness, in the choice of breeding stock. I will always bear in mind that aggression and nervousness form no part in temperament and character of any dog. I shall aim all breeding to the improvement of my breed(s) No bitch shall be mated without due consideration as to the well being of the bitch and her offspring. I agree that I will not deliberately in-breed with mother to son, father to daughter or brother to sister unless I have clear & substantive reasons, and approval from the board of the MDBA to conduct the mating. (15/9/09) I agree that I will never provide false information regarding the parentage of my litter. (15/9/09) I shall not breed a litter unless I am certain of finding good homes for the puppies. As the owner of stud dog(s) I will make it very clear to the bitch owners of the commitment and facilities necessary to rear a litter. I shall never allow any puppy to leave my premises to go to a new home before the age of 8 weeks. No puppy shall be sold without having had its first vaccination and regular-worming treatments and I will provide documented evidence of such to the purchaser. I will never supply a puppy without a diet sheet. A full and accurate puppy care sheet(s) shall be supplied to the purchaser, outlining health care information, heartworm control, flea control, reasons for desexing, microchip information, etc. I will provide a full and detailed health record of any puppy I sell to the purchaser showing a complete history of that pup from the date of whelping to the date of delivery. And I will keep breeding and health records for all dogs in my care. I will provide a written health guarantee for every pup I breed and sell. I will provide on going support and advice for the life of the pup. I will never knowingly sell any puppy/adult dog to laboratories, pet shops or dealers in dogs or to person's known to sell stock to any of the above. I shall not provide any stud services to such persons (a dealer is defined as any person who regularly buys stock for sale at a profit). I will screen prospective buyers for suitability and shall fully advise them of the characteristics of the dog as a breed stressing the necessity for care, grooming and ample exercise. I will register all pups with the breed's registering body unless they are disqualified from registration due to a non recognized colour. I will supply the buyer with the dog's registration papers from my breeds' registrar unless this is not practicable in which case I will provide an endorsed copy to the buyer . I will also clearly state whether the puppy is on limited register or full register (where applicable) and explain the benefits and restrictions of that register. I will never allow a puppy or adult which has any apparent physical defects or which shows definite departure from the Breed Standard to be knowingly sold without the buyer being made aware of such defects and its possible consequences. I will only sell puppies and adults, which, to the best of my knowledge and belief are in good health at the time of sale. I will impress on the buyer that they should contact me in the event of any problem arising with the puppy or adult and that I will make every effort to be of assistance in these circumstances. In the case of a dog needing to be re-homed I will take full responsibility to assist as much as possible in achieving this end and will accept the return of that dog at any age if this in any way possible. My advertising will be strictly factual. I will not use misleading exaggeration or unfounded implications of superiority. I will not promote my dogs as something they are not. I shall refrain from making negative or malicious statements about other breeder's, their dogs or practices. I will be co-operative in any measures aimed at eradicating hereditary diseases or genetic defects. I will seek information and understanding of genetic diseases and defects and use this understanding in my breeding program. I commit myself to a positive breeding program aimed at eradicating such hereditary diseases or defects known or suspected within my breed. I will be honest and forthright in notifying any genetic or heritable diseases found to be in any dogs I have bred and pass on any information required to help breeders make necessary choices in their breeding program. I shall not breed a litter unless I have the time and facilities to devote proper care and attention to the rearing of the puppies and to the well being of the dam. Any dog/puppy in my care shall receive immediate professional attention should it become ill. I will continue to offer helpful assistance to any puppy/adult dog buyer as long as such assistance is required. I will allow representatives of the MDBA to inspect my property or my dogs if requested. All dogs in my care will be adequately housed in clean, comfortable and weatherproof accommodation with a minimum of 2 hours off lead and exercise with appropriate stimulation and companionship per day. All dogs in my care will be under control at all times, housing and exercise areas kept clean and all care taken to limit possible disturbance to neighbours. I will lead by example and advocate responsible dog ownership. I will microchip all animals as prescribed by law. All follow up paper work will be fulfilled and sent to the appropriate canine authority. I will exhibit and promote excellence in the discipline and practice of dog breeding. I will encourage the exchange of knowledge, of technical, practical and ethical matters between members. I will uphold the dignity of dog breeding and the status of members of the Master Dog Breeders & Associates. This will be reflected by the knowledge and understanding, skills and positive attitude toward the members of the Master Dog Breeders & Associates . I will uphold and maintain the integrity of the Master Breeders & Associates through impartiality and confidentiality. I will act and advise in accordance and within the parameters of my experience. I will do nothing which will bring the MDBA into disrepute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them And you think an ethical ANKC breeder would? Selling to a pet shop wouldn't even enter the equation for the majority of ethical ANKC breeders. no of course not. this is not about breeders but the organisations. the ankc organisation says it is ok for its members to sell to PIAA pet shops. i know ethical ankc breeders would never do this and i assume they are not happy this is part of their code of ethics. the reality is though that the ankc has no problems if its members does sell to pet shops and this is what i am talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie99 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. Sounds like MDBA has higher ethics to me. Not selling to pet shops = Have you actually read what the Code of ethics are????? Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 You can have over 30 cats and still not be a farmer, if those cats are well cared for. I'm guessing you are one of those people that associate volume with quality and lump all breeders who have more than a few animals as evil farmers? Numerous people have PM'ed me to ignore you but I will break the rule just this once. I am concerned when people treat animals as commodities with little or no concern about the home they go to (ie impulse buy in pet shops) or the welfare of the breeding females, dogs being mass farmed in conditions that have no concern for their physical and mental state. So I am I have been an animal lover since I was born and love all animals and it upsets me when I see suffering of animals/cruelty to animals/laws that don't protect animals/animals natural environment being destroyed (oratatangs in Bornio - sorry for spelling), dancing bears etc etc That didn't actually answer my question. None of us support cruelty here. I'll spell it out. Some people come here and are ignorant of how good breeders work, they see that they have a lot of dogs or cats and assume that equals puppy farmer. We have to then outline to them that having more than a few breeding animals does not automatically make someone a puppy farmer. You said this person had 30 cats, so it sounded like you were lumping her into the farmer basket based on simply the number she has. It is not that black and white as people has said, some can manage large numbers well, some can't mange 1 successfully. Not a trap, trying to educate someone by ascertaining their beliefs beforehand saves a lot of wasted time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie99 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Jed :D I've had many many reg. purebreed dogs over the years, and shown, and had a stud dog (not a breeder but used by his breeders). ANKC reg. Never a problem, well researched. I know what I look for in a breeder and have never been disappointed. I can't remember, but I thought years ago there was only one body and you were either reg with that body or not reg at all? I may be way off, I'm sure someone can correct me. With one body you know exactly where to go etc. and who to access. I dont know how you educate the pubic. It is complicated now, once , papers were papers. that was it. Now it's all a mine field. I think if a body is going to represent breeders (or anyone) they should make sure (consequences) the member abides by the regulations of the body. I know this does not happen and this reduces the respect and face of other breeders. This is what caused the original problem.Annie became aware of a breeder who told her they were registered and she assumed that meant ANKC registered - they werent.They were registered with another group and as a result what Annie thought they were dong which was breaching what she thought the ANKC code of conduct was they were perfectly able to do. Obvioulsy it got heated and was deleted but it was caused by the fact that like you she thought a registered breeder meant ANKC registered breeder and it didnt. Actually the whole point was that she said she was a registered breeder. She told me AWPDB (or something like that). I thought purebred breeders were not supposed to be puppy farmers/bybs. Her site was sus. Did not even have her name on it. That was the confusion. The word REGISTERED made me think there was some sort of ethics/code of conduct and my belief she was breaching the code. And I was going to dob her in, but found out nothing I could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 the ankc has determined that ankc breeders selling puppies to a PIAA pet shop is allowable under their rules and CoE Thanks for that clarification. So therefore, like it or not, ANKC is supporting puppy farmers - or at best allowing them to be part of their group. I would not call a group that supports sale of pups to pet shops reputable. Annie - you have claimed elsewhere to have a legal background/ training - surely then you are familiar with the Trade Practices Act and the concepts of exclusive dealing and anti-competitive behaviour. I am curious though - what involvement do you have with the dog world? Are you a dog owner? Very good questions. I will send you a PM No PM has come through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie99 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them just because something is allowed does not mean people take advantage of it, I'd wager most ANKC breeders don't sell to PIAA petshops due to their own personal ethics, they too then have have one less point of sale. Well if i was part of a reputable org/assn SAY ANKC where some members sold to pet shops I would LEAVE - that simple! And I would join an org/assn that did not do it. So there could be NO confusion. That simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippets Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 If Annie has a legal background then I'm the queen of sheeba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateshep Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I have a quick question for Steve about the MDBA. Is the MDBA going to be working with/accepting breeders of unregistered pure-breds or working dogs, or only if they are planning to seek approval as a recognised breed by ANKC ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 If Annie has a legal background then I'm the queen of sheeba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 If Annie has a legal background then I'm the queen of sheeba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie99 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 If Annie has a legal background then I'm the queen of sheeba. Nice to meet you Queen of Sheeba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog i understood that mdba members had a greater burden on them rather than being above the law How do they have a greater burden? There is no difference between an ethical ANKC breeder and an MDBA breeder. Only that the MDBA breeder member has coughed up more money to be a member of an extra organisation. if we use selling to pet shops, ankc breeders can sell to PIAA pet shops and mdba members can't so therefore a greater burden is placed on mdba members as they are not allowed to sell to pet shops which reduces a point of sale for them And you think an ethical ANKC breeder would? Selling to a pet shop wouldn't even enter the equation for the majority of ethical ANKC breeders. no of course not. this is not about breeders but the organisations. the ankc organisation says it is ok for its members to sell to PIAA pet shops. i know ethical ankc breeders would never do this and i assume they are not happy this is part of their code of ethics. the reality is though that the ankc has no problems if its members does sell to pet shops and this is what i am talking about Because the ANKC is an organisation, they can not legally restrict freedom of trade. It's not about allowing people to do it, they have to allow them to sell them to the 14 accredited pet shops should breeders wish to. Not something I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Why not get on committee and change things from within, rather then from out??? Ummmm .... because I'm busy? Because I don't have any more spare time to involve myself in committees? Because I don't want this as my mainstream focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Annie, you need to realise that there is a reason that pet shops won't give out the names of breeders. They are well aware that ANKC breeders are not supposed to sell to them. They're not going to say anything. They are aware that some people don't like dog breeders, whether purebred or crossbred. And they protect their financial relationship with them. So for greedy unethical people, they can pay for as many memberships as they like, tell the right people all the stuff they want to hear, and still sell whatever pups they want to wherever they want. It makes not one spot of difference. Unless you're looking inside houses and in backyards and sheds there is no way to stop a member of any organisation doing exactly what they want. If people are able to cook up illegal drugs every day and make a profit at the expense of human safety and life and get away with it, you can be damn sure that puppy breeders can do it. Edited January 9, 2011 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 I have a quick question for Steve about the MDBA.Is the MDBA going to be working with/accepting breeders of unregistered pure-breds or working dogs, or only if they are planning to seek approval as a recognised breed by ANKC ? Do you mean not registered at all or not registered with the ANKC ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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