Erny Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not poisonous towards the MDBA at all. I think it is misleading to send potential puppy buyers towards MDBA members thinking they will get a superior breeder over an ANKC breeder. It's grossly unfair to taint ALL ANKC breeders with the same brush as dodgy. Posting more stories of unethical ANKC breeders will not do nothing more than send the public to pet shops and BYB's. I am not arguing their existance but I'd wager they are the exception more than the rule. I personally won't join the MDBA because I am forking out enough $$$$ for fees and registrations (including council) with this hobby. I am a member of the ANKC. I'm an ethical breeder and that is enough as far as I am concerned. I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda K Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 exactly, and someone with an interest in law presumably would know about the problems with naming names like that on a website. As for the Vic link though for operation of breeding establlshments try this Annie link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) sway the reason i ask this is because whilst researching breeders i came across a couple of ankc registered breeders who talked the talk but were quite suspect. now i am an experienced person and i nearly got sucked in.research is fine but if breeders are out to deliberately deceive it is very difficult for puppy buyers. Asking others in the breed will soon turn up who is legit and not. If the same thing comes up over 5-10 different breeders, you know there is some truth to it. I asked. And I was deliberately not told until after I got my puppy. So that idea can still prove to be diddly squat help. Edited January 9, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think I would hold more esteem for a person or organisation that sets up a criteria and supports those who meet that criteria by accepting membership and the way I see it that's what MDBA are doing. Many breed clubs do the same thing with COE etc, how is that any different to the MDBA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 sway the reason i ask this is because whilst researching breeders i came across a couple of ankc registered breeders who talked the talk but were quite suspect. now i am an experienced person and i nearly got sucked in.research is fine but if breeders are out to deliberately deceive it is very difficult for puppy buyers. Asking others in the breed will soon turn up who is legit and not. If the same thing comes up over 5-10 different breeders, you know there is some truth to it. True, but telling your average novice dog owner that they should call 5 or 10 different breeders and then try to sort the backstabbing crap from the good advice might just cause them to give up in disgust or frustration and go to the petstore instead (after all, they "only want a pet!" and those dogs all have hybrid vigour and vet health checks don't you know...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie99 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 puppy farmers cannot be named as they are not breaking the law. a name and shame will get the web owner into serious legal conflict with anyone named.just because people do not like puppy farmers does not make their activities on their own illegal Actually there is heaps of stuff on the net about dodgy puppy farmers including pictures, and they are named. It is just not in one place and takes some time to find. I know of several in Australia - and these same ones have glossy websites showing the great conditions the dogs live in. Yet when raids occur it paints a somewhat different picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think I would hold more esteem for a person or organisation that sets up a criteria and supports those who meet that criteria by accepting membership and the way I see it that's what MDBA are doing. Many breed clubs do the same thing with COE etc, how is that any different to the MDBA? Its not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippets Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not poisonous towards the MDBA at all. I think it is misleading to send potential puppy buyers towards MDBA members thinking they will get a superior breeder over an ANKC breeder. It's grossly unfair to taint ALL ANKC breeders with the same brush as dodgy. Posting more stories of unethical ANKC breeders will not do nothing more than send the public to pet shops and BYB's. I am not arguing their existance but I'd wager they are the exception more than the rule. I personally won't join the MDBA because I am forking out enough $$$$ for fees and registrations (including council) with this hobby. I am a member of the ANKC. I'm an ethical breeder and that is enough as far as I am concerned. I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 sway the reason i ask this is because whilst researching breeders i came across a couple of ankc registered breeders who talked the talk but were quite suspect. now i am an experienced person and i nearly got sucked in.research is fine but if breeders are out to deliberately deceive it is very difficult for puppy buyers. Asking others in the breed will soon turn up who is legit and not. If the same thing comes up over 5-10 different breeders, you know there is some truth to it. true sway and in one instance that's how i found out in the other instance it was their answers that tipped me off. just to be clear, i am not bagging all ankc breeders but i think the ankc brand is being undermined by dodgy breeders making it hard for puppy buyers to determine who are good breeders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 puppy farmers cannot be named as they are not breaking the law. a name and shame will get the web owner into serious legal conflict with anyone named.just because people do not like puppy farmers does not make their activities on their own illegal Actually there is heaps of stuff on the net about dodgy puppy farmers including pictures, and they are named. It is just not in one place and takes some time to find. I know of several in Australia - and these same ones have glossy websites showing the great conditions the dogs live in. Yet when raids occur it paints a somewhat different picture. i totally disagree with those tactics and have no time for anyone who raids premises or supports illegal activities two wrongs do not make a right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not poisonous towards the MDBA at all. I think it is misleading to send potential puppy buyers towards MDBA members thinking they will get a superior breeder over an ANKC breeder. It's grossly unfair to taint ALL ANKC breeders with the same brush as dodgy. Posting more stories of unethical ANKC breeders will not do nothing more than send the public to pet shops and BYB's. I am not arguing their existance but I'd wager they are the exception more than the rule. I personally won't join the MDBA because I am forking out enough $$$$ for fees and registrations (including council) with this hobby. I am a member of the ANKC. I'm an ethical breeder and that is enough as far as I am concerned. I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Of course there are but how do we know who they are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 puppy farmers cannot be named as they are not breaking the law. a name and shame will get the web owner into serious legal conflict with anyone named.just because people do not like puppy farmers does not make their activities on their own illegal Actually there is heaps of stuff on the net about dodgy puppy farmers including pictures, and they are named. It is just not in one place and takes some time to find. I know of several in Australia - and these same ones have glossy websites showing the great conditions the dogs live in. Yet when raids occur it paints a somewhat different picture. i totally disagree with those tactics and have no time for anyone who raids premises or supports illegal activities two wrongs do not make a right Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 sway the reason i ask this is because whilst researching breeders i came across a couple of ankc registered breeders who talked the talk but were quite suspect. now i am an experienced person and i nearly got sucked in.research is fine but if breeders are out to deliberately deceive it is very difficult for puppy buyers. Asking others in the breed will soon turn up who is legit and not. If the same thing comes up over 5-10 different breeders, you know there is some truth to it. I asked. And I was deliberately not told until after I got my puppy. So that idea can still prove to be diddly squat help. Those who did not tell you, need to look at their morals and ethics I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not poisonous towards the MDBA at all. I think it is misleading to send potential puppy buyers towards MDBA members thinking they will get a superior breeder over an ANKC breeder. It's grossly unfair to taint ALL ANKC breeders with the same brush as dodgy. Posting more stories of unethical ANKC breeders will not do nothing more than send the public to pet shops and BYB's. I am not arguing their existance but I'd wager they are the exception more than the rule. I personally won't join the MDBA because I am forking out enough $$$$ for fees and registrations (including council) with this hobby. I am a member of the ANKC. I'm an ethical breeder and that is enough as far as I am concerned. I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Of course there are but how do we know who they are? Research, just like buying a car. People need to take the emotion out of it and research! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Seems to me there's a reactionary movement going on. Naming worst case scenarios (real & imagined) & then wanting to build something new based on that. The opposite is being progressive & naming best case scenarios (real & desired) and growing & developing them. Within the existing system. As a pet-owner who's stepped thro' the consumer issues of getting purebreds as pets, I've seen enough to come out in favour of the progressive. Ironically, many years ago when I had no idea how to find a purebred dog, the information on how to start, came from RSPCA Qld. They told me (& the public) that you could phone QCCC & ask for a contact list of registered breeders. And to suss out if the dogs were kept/ treated humanely, socialised & health a priority. That was actually when we wanted a sheltie. By happenstance, we found a lost sheltie in awful condition & the university of qld vet told us to contact the Shetland Sheepdog Club of Qld. One of the best moves ever. I met a couple of the the committee members who, by just doing what they do to such a high level, gave me the best education on what makes a good registered breeder. One was a science teacher & by golly did she have the 'smarts' on genetics & health & conformation issues. The other impressed me with her care for the welfare of the dogs & their maintenance. They're still on that committee! So, when much later, we became interested in getting a tibbie, I had a track & models for finding good registered breeders. And found them. Quite a few, in fact. Far more than anyone dodgy. Those 'good' registered breeders I've met have been & are, within the existing system. They've set up & maintain cooperative ways of developing their breeds. Edited January 9, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippets Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not poisonous towards the MDBA at all. I think it is misleading to send potential puppy buyers towards MDBA members thinking they will get a superior breeder over an ANKC breeder. It's grossly unfair to taint ALL ANKC breeders with the same brush as dodgy. Posting more stories of unethical ANKC breeders will not do nothing more than send the public to pet shops and BYB's. I am not arguing their existance but I'd wager they are the exception more than the rule. I personally won't join the MDBA because I am forking out enough $$$$ for fees and registrations (including council) with this hobby. I am a member of the ANKC. I'm an ethical breeder and that is enough as far as I am concerned. I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Of course there are but how do we know who they are? ah so there is an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not poisonous towards the MDBA at all. I think it is misleading to send potential puppy buyers towards MDBA members thinking they will get a superior breeder over an ANKC breeder. It's grossly unfair to taint ALL ANKC breeders with the same brush as dodgy. Posting more stories of unethical ANKC breeders will not do nothing more than send the public to pet shops and BYB's. I am not arguing their existance but I'd wager they are the exception more than the rule. I personally won't join the MDBA because I am forking out enough $$$$ for fees and registrations (including council) with this hobby. I am a member of the ANKC. I'm an ethical breeder and that is enough as far as I am concerned. I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Of course there are but how do we know who they are? ah so there is an agenda. If you say so. Maybe if someone else asked we might get an answer. Maybe its the accredited breeder program???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog, this is an honest question, how do we, as puppy buyers differentiate good ankc breeders (which i agree are definitely out there) from the dodgy ones?i think this is the issue here, it seems a bit hit and miss for puppy buyers who don;t have a lot of experience of registered breeders It's called research, if more puppy buyers bothered to research there would be a lot less getting ripped off and screwed over. I have this written on my site - Whilst you are looking at purchasing a loving companion, think like your buying a car. Truth is people spend more time finding that perfect car, then they do when purchasing a puppy. Ask questions, visit more then one breeder, view paperwork and ask around. You can always get a new car bought through buyer error, but you can't replace that beloved puppy because you didn't do your research first. Ask many questions and do your research. I get many emails from people who ask advice etc saying they read my page - questions to ask breeders and things to look out for, yet they still buy from a BYB. That's a good statement. But as an editor, can I just put in 'think like you're buying a car' rather than 'your' ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Steve : Of course there are but how do we know who they are? Whippets : ah so there is an agenda. .... The agenda being a mode by which to make obtaining a puppy from good breeders perhaps a little bit less than the Russian Roullete game that I felt it was when it was my turn to purchase a puppy? What's wrong with that? Bad luck for me, sure (well, sort of ..... happens I love my boy to bits and he's been a HUGE -not yelling- learning curve for me when it comes to learning about health and treatments, so I certainly acknowledge the silver lining side of things). But I'm not in that boat alone and when it comes the time that I might wish for another puppy, I don't want that experience again. Quite frankly, I found it quite stressful and would welcome with open arms an organisation that goes towards trying to screen breeders by asserting a criteria that forms a part of its membership contract. Edited January 9, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 showdog, this is an honest question, how do we, as puppy buyers differentiate good ankc breeders (which i agree are definitely out there) from the dodgy ones?i think this is the issue here, it seems a bit hit and miss for puppy buyers who don;t have a lot of experience of registered breeders It's called research, if more puppy buyers bothered to research there would be a lot less getting ripped off and screwed over. I have this written on my site - Whilst you are looking at purchasing a loving companion, think like your buying a car. Truth is people spend more time finding that perfect car, then they do when purchasing a puppy. Ask questions, visit more then one breeder, view paperwork and ask around. You can always get a new car bought through buyer error, but you can't replace that beloved puppy because you didn't do your research first. Ask many questions and do your research. I get many emails from people who ask advice etc saying they read my page - questions to ask breeders and things to look out for, yet they still buy from a BYB. That's a good statement. But as an editor, can I just put in 'think like you're buying a car' rather than 'your' ... I have fixed it up, thank you. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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