Registered Breeders

[Staranais]

I figure lots of people get suckered in by flash websites from puppy farmers & unscrupulous breeders, such websites are marketing tools that make these breeders look professional & friendly & make them seem really approachable - pity you can't fight fire with fire by doing the same thing.

not everyone with a flash website is unscrupulous, lots of very fine breeders like having very nice websites. Nothing wrong with that. If I had the skills and the time mine would be a lot flashier ;)

Of course they do. The breeder I got my current girl from has a lovely website. I think novice puppy breeders are often disproportionately impressed by such things, however. ;)

Edited January 9, 2011 by Staranais

[Steve]

What i am curious is when the MDBA start creating there own breed standards then what happens to the general public in deciding which one is right??

Then when you add this how are the public suppose to decide who is right

Foundation Registry

The purpose of the Foundation Registry is for new breeds which are in an

early developmental stage and in which record keeping is vital to the

history of the breed. The registration of these breeds will provide an

accurate, precise chronicle of the breed's progress and development, and may

prove or disprove its future acceptance as a viable, healthy breed as well

as providing analysis of any genetic problems inherent in a particular

breeding program.

Use of both hybrid crosses and outcrosses to dogs of unknown or unregistered

parentage is permitted. There are no limitations or restrictions on the

breeding programs for these breeds. Breed standards will not be accepted

unless the welfare aspects are addressed as well as all others.

So does them mean you can be a Schnnodle(DDB) breeder ?? & recognized with the MDBA

The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered.

No dog can be placed on the stud registry unless it is a main registered dog with an approved registry -

You can not be a schnoodle breeder and be an MDBA member. If you are working on a new breed you are able to place the dogs on the Foundation registry to enable you to do exactly what you can do now with the ANKC - seek breed recognition when you get to that. Allowing people to work on that under our supervision means they can use our data base to track genetic issues , health or temperament way before it gets to a request for recoginition.And they dont get to even be a starter unless they can present the breeding program and show how they intend to proceed to get to a new breed and what you can do with any puppies produced along the way is restricted too.

To suggest that what we intend to do is to allow schnoodle breeders to be recognised is a mile away from reality and in fact its an attempt at showing people the difference between a schnoodle breeder and breeder who is working within a frame work to develop a new breed.

This concept isnt new over seas it just something the ANKC havent provided as they usually show no interest until the application goes in for recognition - that doesnt mean the process of getting there isnt the same or that its not a good thing for us to be involved before that.

[Erny]

Exactly. And what does a Registered breeder really mean?

Annie99, imo, it all comes back to the buyer doing their research, because there is no easy way to sort out the good from the bad. Both sellers and buyers alike can cheat and lie, both sellers and buyers alike can get bitten on the bum by the "ethics" of the other person. It cuts both ways. There are pages on websites, advising puppy buyers what to look for in a good ethical breeder, there are pages listing bad buyers and what names/emails they are known to use. I was caught, many, many years ago by buying from a registered person who turned out to be a backyard breeder, no fancy internet sites back then.

But it would be nice for novice puppy buyers to know that the breeders who are members of a certain org have been 'screened'. That's not something that the ANKC/State bodies do, so wouldn't the membership to MDBA give a better sense of confidence to the buyer and therefore an advantage to those breeders who are members?

Edited January 9, 2011 by Erny

[D & D]

The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered.

;) Care to clarify which one it is?

[Roseclipt]

How about the ANKC, through the State Controls, makes health testing for known Breed health problems, compulsory? It is not as though all registered breeders' dogs are perfect. But whilst individual breeders may health test, many do not, and certainly not as a cohesive whole. This is left to the Breed Clubs (God help us all!), some of which do very little. We now have the ability to do a lot of this - hips, spines, elbows, eyes, hearts, patellas, tracheas, etc. This is not draconian, just common sense. Why would anyone want to either breed, or buy, a puppy from anything but the soundest parents possible? Then the ANKC, or Dogs NSW, or whatever could actually say - buy from a registered breeder with health tested stock.

[Steve]

The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered.

;) Care to clarify which one it is?

Writing our own standards for what the criteria for registration will be accepted isnt the same as altering the breed standards as in what they are judged by physically in a show ring. This is about what is required for each breed regarding health testing and various other tests before we accept them for litter registration.

Here's what it actually says.

http://' target="_blank">The Breed Registration Criteria

MDBABR will develop its own set of registration criteria based on what is considered to be in the best interest for future generations of each individual breed. Registration criteria revisions are accepted for review and acceptance on a 3 year basis.

[Sheridan]

Edited, given Steve's response, which is a whole other issue.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Sheridan

[Rebanne]

Exactly. And what does a Registered breeder really mean?

Annie99, imo, it all comes back to the buyer doing their research, because there is no easy way to sort out the good from the bad. Both sellers and buyers alike can cheat and lie, both sellers and buyers alike can get bitten on the bum by the "ethics" of the other person. It cuts both ways. There are pages on websites, advising puppy buyers what to look for in a good ethical breeder, there are pages listing bad buyers and what names/emails they are known to use. I was caught, many, many years ago by buying from a registered person who turned out to be a backyard breeder, no fancy internet sites back then.

But it would be nice for novice puppy buyers to know that the breeders who are members of a certain org have been 'screened'. That's not something that the ANKC/State bodies do, so wouldn't the membership to MDBA give a better sense of confidence to the buyer and therefore an advantage to those breeders who are members?

it goes back to my belief that no one organisations members would all be 100% above board, particulary as the organisation grows. You still have to do your research. If a member of the general public did approach a breeder member of the MDBA and didn't like or thought something was a bit suss, what they saw or heard or were told, unless they make the effort to report them to the head honcho's, no one would be any the wiser.

[Steve]

The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered.

;) Care to clarify which one it is?

Im reluctant to do this because I already know it will sart a whole new wave of beating us up but perhaps if I show you one we have already done which has a tick from the uni and the breeders who have seen it havent gone troppo too much over it may help to explain what we are doing.Remembering that a big part of it is entering the info on the pedigrees so over a few generations anyone looking at the pedigree will see the test results of the ancestors as well as the ones currently being considered.

Border Collie – 2 Registries

Working Registry ;

Working Bloodlines.

Dog must be registered with, or the offspring of dogs registered with ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, AWBC or MDBA Working Registry parents.

General Registry;

Includes Show and Work bloodlines or any combination.

Dogs must be registered with Acceptable KCs, MDBA general registry or MDBA working registry ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, AWBC or any combination of the accepted working and KC registries.

Dogs who qualify may be dual registered in MDBA Working registry and MDBA General Registry

Dogs or their offspring can move from Working Registry into general Registry

Dogs or their offspring cannot move from General Registry into working registry

Health Screening

1. Collie Eye Abnormality CEA.

Mandatory testing, one parent must be DNA CEA normal. CEA carrier and affected can be bred, but only to a DNA normal. Untested dogs are able be bred to DNA normal partners, provided owners are informed that the parent was not tested Buyers must be told in writing the test results of parents and explain possible results in offspring. DNA cleared by parentage is acceptable.

Goal, to prevent any CEA affected offspring, to keep as many dogs as possible in the gene pool.

2.Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis CL.

Mandatory testing, one parent must be DNA normal. DNA Carrier may be bred to DNA normal. DNA affected dogs may not be used. Untested dogs are able be bred to DNA normal partners, provided owners are informed that the parent was not tested

All dogs less than 3 years of age must be DNA tested prior to breeding. If one parent is not DNA tested and is over 3 years of age and not showing clinical symptoms, it may be bred to DNA normal dog. Buyers must be told in writing the test results of parents and explain possible results in offspring.

Goal; to prevent any affected offspring, to keep as many dogs as possible in the gene pool.

3.Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome TNS.

Recommended testing, Even though the TNS DNA test has not at this time been published and not peer reviewed, it is offered for sale and is a recommended requirement. TNS is almost impossible to diagnose without DNA testing and knowing where carriers are is even more difficult. One parent must be DNA normal. DNA Carrier may be bred to DNA normal. DNA affected dogs may not be used. Untested dogs are able be bred to DNA normal partners, provided owners are informed that the parent was not tested Buyers must be told in writing the test results of parents and explain possible results in offspring Goal; to prevent any affected offspring.

Goal; to prevent any affected offspring.

Breeding Directives, Other Comments.

Mandatory; Merle to merle are not allowed.

Goal; prevent possible health problems related to merle to merle breeding.

Comment; ee red (also known as Australian Red) and sable coloured dogs should not be bred to merles. Sable and ee Red coats do not show the merle coat pattern, often making the offspring look as if they are not merles, when in fact they are. This can also be called phantom merle. Care needs to be taken that offspring from any merle to sable or ee red litter are not phantom merles and are not bred accidentally to another merle.

Goal; prevent possible health problems related to possible future accidental merle to merle breedings.

4.Hip Dysplasia.

Screening is not mandatory. Recommend AVA screening for hip scores in any lines where there is a known affected animal.

Goal; to reduce the risk of affected offspring.

5.Elbows Dysplasia.

Screening is not mandatory. Recommend AVA screening for elbow scores in any lines where there is a known affected animal.

Goal; to reduce the risk of affected offspring.

Other considerations and health information

1. Epilepsy Although it's clear Border Collies can be affected with epilepsy, the incidence and heritability in our breed are unknown. Since we have little breed-specific information to go on, MDBA breeding recommendations concerning this disease are based on those for other affected breeds in which the disease is more well-defined.

Recommendation: Do not breed affected dogs. If two unaffected dogs produce an affected puppy, do not repeat that mating.

2. Progressive Retinal Atrophy PRA is a progressive disease where tissue in the retina of the eye is destroyed. Incidence at this time appears to be extremely low or non existent

No recommendations at this time.

3. Other conditions currently under investigation

These are Glaucoma, Cerebella Abiotrophy and Exercise Induced Collapse. So far there are no proven screening tests for any of these conditions.

No recommendations at this time.

[Sheridan]

The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered.

;) Care to clarify which one it is?

Im reluctant to do this because I already know it will sart a whole new wave of beating us up

And there's another marketing 101 fail. Do you actually think that the questions are not genuine?

[mita]

How about the ANKC, through the State Controls, makes health testing for known Breed health problems, compulsory? It is not as though all registered breeders' dogs are perfect. But whilst individual breeders may health test, many do not, and certainly not as a cohesive whole. This is left to the Breed Clubs (God help us all!), some of which do very little. We now have the ability to do a lot of this - hips, spines, elbows, eyes, hearts, patellas, tracheas, etc. This is not draconian, just common sense. Why would anyone want to either breed, or buy, a puppy from anything but the soundest parents possible? Then the ANKC, or Dogs NSW, or whatever could actually say - buy from a registered breeder with health tested stock.

The Tibetan Spaniel registered breeders have an International TS Working Party on health. Info on the international site. Menu on right, is even more specific. There's the kennels listed country by country.

http://www.tibbies.net/itswp/

This site is accessible to all, registered breeders, pet owners & potential pet owners. There's a Tibetan Spaniel Global Village Forum on the site where anyone can ask questions.

Even on general health matters. Recently, my tibbie, Annie, had a puzzling bowel upset that came suddenly & wouldn't go away. Checking for any sign of typical chronic bowel conditions was easy. No such conditions in depth & breadth of her pedigree. In fact, that helped vets in diagnosing the problem.

Turned out to be a food intolerance triggered off by a dodgy treat. But the advices re diet from australian & international breeders (& some DOLers!) led to recovery.

My Annie's kennels are listed on that TS health working party of registered breeders (she originally came from Sweden). With contact details.

Edited January 9, 2011 by mita

[Steve]

The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered.

;) Care to clarify which one it is?

Im reluctant to do this because I already know it will sart a whole new wave of beating us up

And there's another marketing 101 fail. Do you actually think that the questions are not genuine?

No Sheridan I know the questions are genuine I just also know that giving out more info will bring in more punches from the side lines.

[Steve]

How about the ANKC, through the State Controls, makes health testing for known Breed health problems, compulsory? It is not as though all registered breeders' dogs are perfect. But whilst individual breeders may health test, many do not, and certainly not as a cohesive whole. This is left to the Breed Clubs (God help us all!), some of which do very little. We now have the ability to do a lot of this - hips, spines, elbows, eyes, hearts, patellas, tracheas, etc. This is not draconian, just common sense. Why would anyone want to either breed, or buy, a puppy from anything but the soundest parents possible? Then the ANKC, or Dogs NSW, or whatever could actually say - buy from a registered breeder with health tested stock.

The Tibetan Spaniel registered breeders have an International TS Working Party on health. Info on the international site. Menu on right, is even more specific. There's the kennels listed country by country.

http://www.tibbies.net/itswp/

This site is accessible to all, registered breeders, pet owners & potential pet owners. There's a Tibetan Spaniel Global Village Forum on the site where anyone can ask questions.

Even on general health matters. Recently, my tibbie had a puzzling bowel upset that came suddenly & wouldn't go away. Checking for any sign of typical chronic bowel conditions was easy. No such conditions in depth & breadth of her pedigree. In fact, that helped vets in diagnosing the problem.

Turned out to be a food intolerance triggered off by a dodgy treat. But the advices re diet from australian & international breeders (& some DOLers!) led to recovery.

Yes its great and useful to consider when working out what - if any tests need to be made mandatory before breeding.

[SwaY]

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

That's a good question. Referring people to the MDBA website seems like it should be a good resource to help people find good breeders, if all the member breeders are listed?

wasn't going to reply to this but:

I joined MDBA years ago, paid a fee etc. I have however not paid a renewal for the last 3 or 4 years, nor received a renewal notice. I do not consider my self a member yet they still seem to do so as I am still getting emails from both the MDBA and Pacers (and I have never been a member of them)

when the topic, since deleted, about the new MDBA's registery in the news thread arose, I said I wouldn't be joining, Steve replied but I was already a member of the MDBA. I said the same as I am saying here. I have not rejoined for some years. Thread was deleted before I could find out if I am being counted or not. ;)

Same here, I used to have a breeder listing on there - now I don't, I didn't remove it yet I still get emails etc. ;)

[SwaY]

I dont know of many groups who have lists of their members made public unless they have opted to advertise.Why not ask the ANKC why they dont make their member lists public so people can find them when looking for a puppy. Id say its the same reasons we dont. Just because you're a member of a group doesnt mean we are like commercial breeders who always have puppies available and we want a constant stream of people looking for puppies we dont have you know.

I don't see why they all don't have public listings. Just because you are a public listing does not mean you have pups or are advertising. It is just a public list of members.

I am a member of organisations and the lists are public. I have nothing to hide. And just because you are on a public list does not mean people are going to ring you day and night or bombard you with emails. It is just a public list. That is all.

Public lists are not the same as advertising

I agree.

[Steve]

What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere??

Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list.

Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not

That's a good question. Referring people to the MDBA website seems like it should be a good resource to help people find good breeders, if all the member breeders are listed?

wasn't going to reply to this but:

I joined MDBA years ago, paid a fee etc. I have however not paid a renewal for the last 3 or 4 years, nor received a renewal notice. I do not consider my self a member yet they still seem to do so as I am still getting emails from both the MDBA and Pacers (and I have never been a member of them)

when the topic, since deleted, about the new MDBA's registery in the news thread arose, I said I wouldn't be joining, Steve replied but I was already a member of the MDBA. I said the same as I am saying here. I have not rejoined for some years. Thread was deleted before I could find out if I am being counted or not. ;)

Same here, I used to have a breeder listing on there - now I don't, I didn't remove it yet I still get emails etc. ;)

Rebanne doesnt get emails anymore as she is unfinacial and the reason you do is because you were given free membership for the work you did when we were doing the fundraising for the bushfires.Your breeder listing isnt there now even though you didnt remove it because you havent gone into the new site and redone it as has been advised several times in the emails and newsletters. You will find that you cant get into the private forums either because its reliant on you re registering with the new website. You dont have to join the registry or use it if you dont want to - its a service you can use as a breeder member if you want.

[SwaY]

We currently have approx 1100 members of which around 330 are breeders.

Then frankly, I am very surprised that so few bother advertising on your website given they went to the bother of joining in the first place.

Part of that would be because you have assumed you know why they joined.

Out of 10,000 how many advertise on the Dogs NSW website or their monthly journal?

I'm guessing because The NSW Journal would cost to advertise in, I assume your website would be free.

[SwaY]

And very disappointing that the other thread I started got pulled as it had some good information in it.

A shame a couple of the helpful posters aren't commenting in this one. Not sure why.

Because not all breeders support the MDBA & would prefer not to get involved when there name comes up.

It seems a thing of late to be promoting the MDBA in DOL like some elite group when infact it isn't & i find it misleading .There are many wonderful ANKC breeders who do wonderful things & are just as ethical if not more

yep flame suit on so shoot me

Agree.

[Steve]

Also unless you tick you dont want any further communication when you buy something from the pacers site you get the newsletters and emails as hundreds of people here would attest who have never been members who receive them. Same if you buy something from the MDBA site including awards tickets unless you tick you dont want them.

[whippets]

Ive got a real easy solution for it - when you are looking for a new puppy or recycled dog go to an MDBA breeder or rescue member. ;)

Trouble is Ive no doubt registered breeders who are not our members wont see that as a viable solution. ;)

Out of curiosity are you in favor of ethically registered ANKC breeders or pushing an agenda for MDBA members only?