Darien Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Kiska is a 7 year old rescue BC who form the time we got her at age 3 has had incontinence. She will flood, usually while asleep. We had her on propalin for a while, but that didn't agree with her at all, so I shied away from meds and while inside she wore a nappy. It eased for a while, about 12 months and then came back with a vengence. She is now on stlboestral, 1 tablet every 4 days now and it works a treat without any side effects. According to the papers we got with her, she was desexed at 6 months. She is my 4th BC bitch and all have mine have been desexed, but at a much later age and she is the only one I have had with incontinence. However, to be honest, I have just thought it was bad luck on her behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaJ Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Beat you to it Star....lol http://search.avg.com/route/?d=4d2198e2&am...y=&ychte=us this one is on spay/neuter http://www.physorg.com/news178913565.html This one is a news article related to ovarian research - unfortunately I can't link the original paper as it comes from Purdue University and their site is "locked" Basically that paper links keeping ovaries to longevity. PS - I'm not good on links in here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 5 spayed bitches, at various ages, no incontinence at all. Swings & roundabouts really because if a small percent become incontinent, allowing for the fact that old dogs of either sex can get this desexed or not What percent get Pyometra if they are not desexed ? Comparison risk figures would be interesting. Studies/statistics can also be variable depending on who did the study on how many dogs. Not always an accurate reflection. It really is a case of weighing pros & cons for the particular dog & life style & circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I know that having babies can cause incontinence (and fistulas) in women - what about bitches? Ie if you don't desex, and the dog gets pregnant and has puppies, are you back with the same incontinence risk factor? Not to mention the risk of Polymetra (spelling?) in a whole bitch is much higher than the risk of incontinence in a desexed one. And if you don't desex and you put the bitch on the pill so you don't have to deal with bitch in season or risk pregnancies - are you back to the same risk of incontinence because you've messed with the hormones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I know that having babies can cause incontinence (and fistulas) in women - what about bitches? Ie if you don't desex, and the dog gets pregnant and has puppies, are you back with the same incontinence risk factor? Don't think so due to the differences in canine & human pelvic anatomy, but willing to be proven wrong. Not to mention the risk of Polymetra (spelling?) in a whole bitch is much higher than the risk of incontinence in a desexed one. True - and don't forget that risk of mammary cancer is far lower in a bitch that is desexed before the first or 2nd heat cycle compared to a bitch left entire. There's unfortunately no one right answer for all dogs, desexing and leaving them entire both come with their own of risk factors. And if you don't desex and you put the bitch on the pill so you don't have to deal with bitch in season or risk pregnancies - are you back to the same risk of incontinence because you've messed with the hormones? Not sure, but I do know that your risk of pyometra sky-rockets when you use the drugs we have available to control estrus. I wouldn't give them to my dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) I know that having babies can cause incontinence (and fistulas) in women - what about bitches?Ie if you don't desex, and the dog gets pregnant and has puppies, are you back with the same incontinence risk factor? Not to mention the risk of Polymetra (spelling?) in a whole bitch is much higher than the risk of incontinence in a desexed one. And if you don't desex and you put the bitch on the pill so you don't have to deal with bitch in season or risk pregnancies - are you back to the same risk of incontinence because you've messed with the hormones? I don't think it does due to different anatomy. This is why dogs, cows, horses can run, jump buck etc and we can only waddle and barely even walk at times towards the end. Gravity gives our pelvic floor a hammering. Their belly muscles get a hammering Edited January 8, 2011 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingduster Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've got a 12 year old who was spayed at I think around 9 months (after a heat) and is totally fine. I also have a nearly-5-year-old who I don't know when she was spayed but it was certainly before 12 months when I first met her, and it was almost certainly done before she had a heat at all, and she's fine so far too. The only other bitches I've had personal experience with were all entire their whole lives and had no incontinence issues either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trishalouise Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Incontinence is one of the issues which has been raised with early age spayed bitches. Amanda, from your post it sounds like there is a research project afoot - am I understanding this correctly? Also, what age is considered "early"? There's already research on it - I haven't time to dig it out right now sorry, but I think some links to the research have been posted on the forum before. At least one study shows that the earlier a bitch is spayed, then the more likely she is to develop incontinence. But no matter when they're spayed, spayed bitches have a much higher risk of incontinence than entire bitches do. It's due to the lack of estrogen after spaying which causes downregulation of adrenergic hormone receptors on her urethral sphincter, making the sphincter less responsive to the hormones that cause it to clamp shut. Research also suggests that larger sized bitches are also more likely to develop it than smaller bitches. Hmmm interesting all mine were large breed. Maybe the Whippet will be small enough not to be as much of a problem? My Mini Poodle has it Spayed at 9 months - she is now 3 and it has come on in the last 6 weeks. We started her on Propalin which worked for a couple of weeks but the wet beds have returned. Back to the vet today and we are now trying Imipramine (Tofranil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clover Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) 3 speyed bitches here, one is my 12 year old Rottie cross who has suffered a little leaking (very minimal these days), she was speyed at 3 years. My Mums rescue who they said was about 2.5 at the time of adoption (would have been barely 12 months old though) has a tendency to wet herself when excited or scared. And my now 7 year old BC bitch who was speyed at 12 months and has never had a problem. ETA: Clover has the occasional Stilboestrol tablet, maybe one every 3 or so weeks and that seems enough for her and keeps everything under control. Edited January 14, 2011 by Clover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shez78 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 My dog Charlie Brown was desexed at 6 months of age. Then the problems started soon after. She was going to the toilet a lot & from what I could see only weeing a small amount each time. Then she started weeing in her sleep. She would be devastated when she would wake only to discover that she had wet herself. The first few times it happened I thought nothing of it, however did notice the amount of times she was going to the toilet. But then it seemed to be getting more & more frequent. She fell asleep on my lap & wet herself. As I said before she was absolutely beside herself when she would wake. She did it in my bed too when she asleep so off we go back to the vet to investigate. My poor angel was so upset, especially when she did it in my bed. I think she was waiting to get scolded for it but if anything it upset me to see her like it. Because when she would wake, it was like she was in shock, she would sniff at the area & look at me as if to say "Whoa what the hell happened". My vet ran a few different tests, did a urinalysis to see if she was diabetic, checked her thyroid & so on. All the tests came back normal. I have decided not to put her on medication at this stage. If the problem gets more severe then the occasional accident then I will look further into it. At the moment it is just the occasional drip & she hasn't wet herself in a couple of months (touch wood). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 5 spayed bitches, at various ages, no incontinence at all.Swings & roundabouts really because if a small percent become incontinent, allowing for the fact that old dogs of either sex can get this desexed or not What percent get Pyometra if they are not desexed ? Comparison risk figures would be interesting. Studies/statistics can also be variable depending on who did the study on how many dogs. Not always an accurate reflection. It really is a case of weighing pros & cons for the particular dog & life style & circumstances. I'd be interested in this too if anyone has the stats. Risk of mammary cancer is also something to be considered. TL is always an option if you are worried about mismatings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raelene Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I must have desexed well over 100 bitches over the past 10 years or so of rescue plus our own. I haven't heard of any becoming incontinent. Even my oldies to ancients didn't really become incontinent - they just couldn't walk as far to get outside (ie. they didn't leak in their beds, etc). It would be interesting to know what people class as "incontinent". The only incontinent dog that I know that was on medication (and fine on it) was an old mini poodle, so would be hard to say whether it was due to age or not. It would be interesting to know if there are other causes apart from "desexing" in the dogs that have incontinent. I would be horrified if everyone stopped desexing just in case.... there are FAR TOO MANY indiscriminately bred dogs turning up in the pound. Keeping bitches in heat and dogs apart is not the easiest thing to do. There is a lot of hormones going on and can send the males barmy. Not for the inexperienced. When you are around the "tail end" of dog ownership, you realise how large the percentage of irresponsible dog ownership is (this is not necessarily intentional, just don't realise). I have had dogs come in with mammary tumours and though they were aged they were not desexed. The dogs were old and I don't believe it was the mammary tumours that took them in the end... I think it was a mix of lots of things at that age. I do feel that there veterinary experience could play a part. After watching all the desexings recover you can see if the stitches are pulling inside, etc. Would be very easy for internal stitching etc to be "not quite right" - the dogs just cannot tell us. Re humans - my relative had a terrible hysterectomy done which has left her with a level of incontinence. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I class incontinence as large wet patches on dog beds/lounges, flooding beds and dripping urine (or pouring as was the case with my bitch)while walking along. I am not saying that we should all not desex our dogs, that would be a disaster, but I personally will not be desexing any future female dogs until much later in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 One ex-breeding bitch here - she was desexed at 5 and a half immediately after I got her - and haven't had a problem. Interesting thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyMilo Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 My bitch was desexed at around 5 months. She became incontinent after a UTI when she was 3.5yrs. Vet prescribed stilboestrol which worked and she is now no longer taking the medication .. so far so good *touch wood*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Incontinence occurs in up to 20% of speyed bitches. Pyometra may affect up to 25% of bitches. The incidence of mammary tumours in entire bitches or those speyed after 2 seasons is up to 25%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raelene Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thanks for the figures Rappie. Is there any for incontinence in entire bitches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Incontinence occurs in up to 20% of speyed bitches. Pyometra may affect up to 25% of bitches. The incidence of mammary tumours in entire bitches or those speyed after 2 seasons is up to 25%. Incontinence affects 20 % of bitches and Pyo may occur in 25% of bitches???? Seems the odds are fairly equal. Also frustrating that so far I have a 100% strike rate with incontinence in my speyed bitches. One in five wouldn't annoy me so much. Have had one with an open pyo that then went on to become incontinent - always knew my animals were weird! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJB Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 First dog was a rescue and was spayed at 5 months. No incontinence ever. Second dog, spayed at 6 months, leaking 1 month later. My girl was on Stilbestrol, but was informed of the high risks associated with its use, so changed to Propalin for a short time before doing some internet searching and coming across the use of an implant "Suprelorin" to treat incontinence. It has worked wonderfully for us and we have now just had our second implant inserted. The first one lasted 10 months and we had only just started seeing a slight dribble from Heidi before putting the second implant in after it was cleared with the manufacturer whether we could insert another before the 12 months had passed. It has been a great relief for us to have found something that gives us nearly a year of "no stress" with worrying about incontinence issues and the medication affects. The implant has been used for many years as a contraceptive, and is considered very safe. It is only now being used for incontinence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 It would be interesting to know how these odds go in particular breeds. After talking with a lot of breeders of Giant Schnauzers, it is apparently very common for this breed to have spey incontinence, it is certainly true of my 2 who were speyed as older dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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