Luxating Patellas

[GoldenGirl85]

Tess has never had problems with her patellas before, she never did the little skip with her back legs or anything, she never came up lame on her legs either

A month or two ago I was recommended a chiro by quite a few people on here, not because I was concerned about her, but because I was looking into massage for her and a lot of people suggested making sure she was all in alignment before going ahead with massage

Anyway I took her to the chiro, he made up his mind on sight that she had a patella problem, and even after asking me if she skips of favours legs (to which my answer was no), when he was checking her he was very rough with her and had trouble 'checking' her patellas. Anyway after a bit of a struggle he was finally able to move them, and after that he could move them easily

Since taking her to him she has been coming up lame on both back legs, but one side more than the other when we play fetch, she NEVER had this problem prior to this visit, and its been happening very frequently, a vet confirmed its her patellas causing the lameness (although even this vet was FOS so Im not trusting his opinion 100%)

What I want to know is, is it possible that this chiro has caused damage to her patellas by forcing them? I dont know a lot about them, but I do know this problem didnt exist before she went to him

Im quite annoyed about it because he was highly recommended by quite a few people on here and also in my agility club...and now this has happened

ETA, when he made up his mind on first sight he didnt tell me this until after he moved the patellas, and his opinion was formed based on her breed (JRT), and after having asked me if she is crossbred (which she isnt, she came from a reg breeder)

Edited January 5, 2011 by GoldenGirl85

[Garloch]

Hey Goldengirl,

I have no words of wisdom for you I'm afraid re the chiropractor. I have one of my girls with the slightest of slight luxating patella's (vet said 1, maybe 2 out of 10) on her hind leg and his advice was to keep her weight on the light side, avoid jumping, and be aware if she started to have problems in the future. Very difficult for your JRT not to jump I'm sure. Fish oil capsules - 1000mg, omega 3 or 6, human grade, seem to have helped enormously, although she has never been lame, and I never saw any hint of a problem. I just have a fabulous very thorough vet.

Would maybe phone your usual vets and have them check records to see if there was ever any indication of a problem, however slight, before going to chiro. Perhaps it was always there, just undiagnosed?? You won't be able to prove chiro did anything damaging unless you have prior xrays, so maybe do the best you can now for your girl to keep her painfree. Not optimum I know, but you can only be in the here and now.

[Rottifan]

Its always hard to figure out where to go and what to do, especially when we're following advice that we think is the best and people give recommendations, its sometimes just one of those things. I took my dog to a number of chiropractors and vet chiro's and got no results, I then got a recommendation to an animal chiro who has a mobile service in South East Qld and his website has many many client testimonials as well as video's of his results. I was skeptical and always a 'vet only type person' but my boy had alot of movement issues by this stage and I was told at the age of 7 to put him down. He is now 10 and I'm glad I went to this chiro and didnt continue with others. I have been told that massage and other therapies and even swimming will not help if your dog is 'out of alignment'. These therapies will cause the nerves to flare up and muscles to spasm to protect pinched nerves and not make your dog any more comfortable - until they are in alignment. I have also been told that cruciate ligament problems exist after a dog is out of alignment and therefore as a result of the pain associated with that they change the way they move (sometimes so subtlely and bit by bit that owners do not notice until symptoms are very bad later in life). The changes in movement could be that the dog takes shorter steps with front legs and doesnt push/drive back as far with rear legs. Their back could also be roached or have dip in it instead of its topline being flat/straight. Walking with these changes means it doesnt hurt them to walk anymore - but when their adrenalin kicks in and they push through the pain barrier (eg to chase the postman or run to your front door to greet someone) they extend past the point that they can when they're out of alignment with pinched nerves and something has to give, usually causing cruc ligament issues. Its hard with long coat dogs but after walking out of alignment for some time, long enough to cause cruc ligament problems, the dog might have muscle wastage in rear legs... Regardless to check that this is the case a chiro shouldnt have to play around or be rough with your dog. The aim, I expect from the experience I've had with many treatments by the chiropractor I use, should be just to do up to 3 adjustments to your dog with your job being to keep your dog in alignment in between treatments to that the lower/deeper levels of nerves can be released at each treatment without the top layers flaring up again. Once in alignment and walking properly your dog will benefit from other therapies, swimming and massage and any muscles that are wasted will build back up again due to their muscles working to full extent and toned muscles hold bones in place, if that makes sense thus eliminating the need for operations or further secondary issues like cruc ligament. I'd contact some other chiro's to ask. The symptoms you have mentioned your dog is now obviously exhibiting need to be addressed and rest and pain killers wont do the trick. Just see a good guaranteed chiro to have nerves properly released, gently and hopefully you'll have the results I've had achieved with my miracle boy! Good luck

[GoldenGirl85]

Do you think I should ring said chiro and tell him her problem? when I went to see him he came across a bit arrogant, but I dont know if he got me wrong when he double booked so I had to wait (no worries im patient) and then when he was telling me that he expected she would have patella issues based on her breed (it pretty much came across that he was saying Tess poorly bred)

Im not saying there might not have been an underlying issue, they may well have been loose, but they have never caused an issue with her, now all of a sudden they are sliding out on their own, and its only since her visit to this chiro

[Guest Ams]

Definitely won't hurt to make him aware that she now has issues that were not apparent prior to his consult.

[Michelleva]

Thats a bugger Golden Girl.

My sheltie had the surgery just over 6 weeks ago. She's getting stronger and fitter by the day. Hers was caused by an injury, not that we ever saw a specific incident. I have no idea if a chiro could cause the condition. Georgia followed what we now know is the classic symptoms of holding up one foot, then trotting off like nothing was wrong. But it only got worse and surgery was recomended by 3 vets.

[DLB]

Hi Golden Girl

Was this Chiro on the Northside of Brisbane? I have just seen one on the northside of Brisbane and said my girl was sub-luxating or very loose in her patellas.

Hope your baby is OK.

Take Care

[GoldenGirl85]

Hi Golden Girl

Was this Chiro on the Northside of Brisbane? I have just seen one on the northside of Brisbane and said my girl was sub-luxating or very loose in her patellas.

Hope your baby is OK.

Take Care

Ill PM you

I havent actually done anything yet, Im trying to decide if I should get her checked by my vet before approaching him, or if I should just call him...

[vetrg]

It is not possible for the chiro to have forced the luxation unless the patellas were loose anyway HOWEVER .... it is possible for your dog to have a grade I or II luxation that it is coping with quite well then the chiro in an effort to make her "normal" has removed those coping mechanisms. sometimes if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[GoldenGirl85]

It is not possible for the chiro to have forced the luxation unless the patellas were loose anyway HOWEVER .... it is possible for your dog to have a grade I or II luxation that it is coping with quite well then the chiro in an effort to make her "normal" has removed those coping mechanisms. sometimes if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That is what I was wondering, Im not disputing that there may have been a small problem before she went to him, but it wasnt obvious to me, she didnt skip like a lot of dogs do, she was never lame either. Now and only since her visit to him she has been coming up lame on one leg more than the other, Ive had a massage therapist and a vet mention about them even though Ive not mentioned it. Nobody has ever mentioned that they were loose before I took her to this chiro. What I needed to know is, can he have made the problem worse by forcing them to move? your answer has told me yes, he wasnt trying to 'fix' it, he had simply decided that she had luxating patellas before he even touched her

[tlc]

Thats a terrible thing to happen. I can't understand how he could have decided she had a problem before he even examined her, is that even possible it's not something you can see is it??

One of my girls has a little skip when she runs, and for the last 3 years the vet said no patella problem, she is very active runs jumps, even flys sometimes :D Last time we were at the vet it was a new vet and she said she does have a slight luxating patella, but it will probly never be anything to worry about. I asked about excersise and said she loves to run jump etc and the vet said let her go. She is never lame on waking or even in pain that I am aware of and never limps, only this slight little skip when running slowly.

I hope you get to the bottom if it GG. I don't hold much faith in Doggy Chiros, had a bad experience with one earlier on. Also had one tell me that it was ok to use voltaren gel on Tullys knee and I have since found out that this is a big no no and can even cause death in a dog.

[GoldenGirl85]

Thats a terrible thing to happen. I can't understand how he could have decided she had a problem before he even examined her, is that even possible it's not something you can see is it??

He just made that presumption based on her breed, he presumed she was poorly bred and from a petshop or BYB, which she isnt :D

As far as I know the only visible sign is the skipping with their back legs, she has NEVER skipped, now we cant even play fetch without her coming up lame on her leg, it goes back to the way its supposed to be once it slides back into place but still, it could mean the end of her agility career

he had loads of trouble getting her patellas to move at first, if I had have known more about it back then I would have told him to stop...unfortunately I didnt, I believed the recommendations and pushed my skeptical thoughts on chiros to the back of my mind...Im such a bad mum

[tlc]

Don't beat yourself up, you weren't to know. When I took my 3 (before Bronson) to a chiro here in town, he checked Cooper over and said he had some stiffness in his hip, he stretched his leg out till it made a horrible noise and Cooper nearly screamed the building down, I felt so had for him he couldn't get near him again to even see if he done any damage, he said he had a dislocated hip? I took Cooper to the vets after this happened and the vet said if he had a dislocated hip, he would not have been walking around.

Trouble is we put our faith in some of these "professionals" and they don't have a clue and are flying by the seat of their pants. How dare the guy you seen presume your dog was badly bred, that's just ignorance! If he is in the business/industry shouldn't he have an eye for recognizing good and bad breeding. I expect comments like that having cross breeds but I'd be offended if I had a reg PB dog and a professional dog person assumed it was not bred well.

Anyway I am rambling now which is not helping, is she lame on waking or is it just after playing etc? It sounds to me like possibly she may have had a mild problem and him playing around with it has really made it worse. I can understand why you would be so angry I know I would be.

[Lowenhart]

The chiro may have done some soft tissue damage to the support tendon or ligament for the patella.

At this stage I would treat you dog like it has had soft tissue damage. Restricted exercise, anti-inflammatories (if possible) and heat/cold treatment.

Once movable, the knee will continue to be more mobile HOWEVER getting the soft tissue healed and back doing its job will stabilise the joint and minimise the symptoms you are seeing now.

I have a strong dislike of any chiro or manipulator who plays with patellas. It's not a proper joint, it's a piece of bone held in by a groove and soft tissue. Not something that needs cracking back into place.

I'm sorry this happened to your girl, GoldenGirl85. Let the chiro know they injured your dog.

[Kimjm1]

Unless the patella were easily dislocated and relocated why on earth would he force them. If he could not easily move them I would think the would not sublux themselves when your dog was moving around.

[GoldenGirl85]

Ok Ill call him, but I need help on what the right thing to say is...I dont want to come across as though Im attacking him, after all I do want a resolution out of it (ideally Id like him to pay for all her vet bills in regards to the patella issue) but I dont know how much Ill be able to get, Im certainly not expecting that, unless of course he has insurance to cover his work, but considering he works off mostly cash jobs (without receipts from what I could tell) Id doubt it. Thankfully I forgot to take cash along to the appt so I paid by direct deposit, so between my direct deposit payment and some posts on here at the time I have proof she actually went to see him

Every time I bring his number up in my phone I freeze...what should I say? I mean I know what I want to say, but how should I go about it?

[GoldenGirl85]

Unless the patella were easily dislocated and relocated why on earth would he force them. If he could not easily move them I would think the would not sublux themselves when your dog was moving around.

Because he presumed based on her breed that she would have an issue, unfortunately he didnt tell me about this presumption until after he got them to move and had a smug "I thought there would be a problem here" this was after he had asked me about her breed (breed, not breeding) and if she has any problems on her legs or skipping, to which I answered no

[Di*]

As far as I know the only visible sign is the skipping with their back legs, she has NEVER skipped, now we cant even play fetch without her coming up lame on her leg, it goes back to the way its supposed to be once it slides back into place but still, it could mean the end of her agility career

Hi

I hope your little dog is OK.

I can't comment on whether the chiro has or hasn't caused a problem but I just thought I'd let you know that I have 3 dogs with luxating patellas. None of them skips, none of them has had any lameness or apparent/obvious pain. And, from what I've been told by vets, pain is not usually associated with luxating patellas (except as they get older as a result of arthritis).

With one you can clearly tell simply by looking at him that he has patella problems--you can see when his patellas have slipped. So this is possible in some cases.

All of mine have had their knees manipulated when they were checked and this has not caused any further problems. The one with the worst knees has regular chiropractic treatment.

good luck with it

Di